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Old 06-15-2005, 06:40 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Superman87
enough talk....we need a haunted meet where we check out a haunted site or something.

lets set something up guys...summer be comin
I'm there! The bar close to my house is, hard to find a place that allows public access.
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Old 06-15-2005, 06:41 PM   #32
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i've been violated by a ghost....mmmmm....wait, it might have been michael jackson...
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Old 06-15-2005, 06:42 PM   #33
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Old 06-15-2005, 06:46 PM   #34
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:20 PM   #35
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my great grandfather (gonna sound crazy and ****ed up) could summon and control Jins so i don't think you're crazy at all...

if i were you i'd get a priest to check you're house out or w.e.

do some background check on the house, did anyone die IN that house before you bought it?
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:23 PM   #36
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First off, in science, just because something is a LAW, does not make it infallable. The practical definition of scientific law is a theory that has shown to hold true in every practical application. There is no claim that the law holds with no exception. Newton's laws are the prime example. Just because they seem to break at the subatomic level, they have not lost their title as laws, because in practical applications, they still hold.

Second, I have to side with RO-bemve here. Not in attitude but in his point. What Justin wrote does a good job of explaining the basics of why scientists believe that parallel dimensions exist. But I don't see how you can from that, derive that when people die we actually don't simply cease to function but some as of yet unquantifiable part of us moves on to another dimension, and sometimes, for scientifically unknown reasons, stays here to mess with the living... that's reaching a bit far don't you think?

The main reason I don't believe in the supernatural is simple. It always happens where no one, or no one credible, can attest to it, or record it. It's always some group of Mexican farmers, or some redneck who's a few cans short of a sixpack upstairs, that sees these things. Like Denis Leary says, the Virgin Mary has a big enough budget, that if she wanted to say something she'd appear in the middle of Air Force One right after Harison Ford's close up and say "hey, stop putting shit in the coffee".

Now, let me also be clear that I'm not saying ghosts and other supernatural things are impossible - only that >>I<< don't BELIEVE in them. In other words, the standards which I have for me to believe something to be true have not been met with regards to these phenomena. I am not ruling out that some day these standards may be met. But for now, my personal feeling is ghosts and the like are inventions of the human mind to make the world seem more exciting than it really is. And/or ghosts serve (the same way religion does) as reassurance for people that they do not need to fear death, that there will be something after. I mean, if parallel dimensions was a way for all sorts of weird shit to happen, how come it's always about showing that people somehow transcend death. It stinks of self serving bullshit to me, I'm sorry. It also completely disregards Ockham's Razor, that philosophic and scientific theories should be kept as simple as possible (and in these cases, supernatural activity is hardly it - usually things like visual illusions or simple memory lapses account for them quite nicely).
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:24 PM   #37
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I don't think you paid attention to what I wrote. But this is really going off-topic, in either case.. I'll humour you.

Your question was for proof of the possibility that ghosts can exist. Not that they DO exist, and not that human beings have spirits! Let's stay on topic, shall we?

Quantum mechanics, particle theory, and quantum theory are not all the same thing. Quantum mechanics, and particle theory are both in practice today. What more proof do you need than already existing quantum computers? Do you want to go to a lab and test it out? Or would you rather go to an airport and have them xray your baggage so you can confirm that this indeed is real?

Just to bring you up to speed on the last 100 years...
Newton's law of gravity is not a law, it is a theory. It has been improved by Einstein's theory of general of relativity, which again... is not law, it's a theory because the equations fall apart when you introduce gravity to the space/time equation when attempting to calculate the weight of blacks holes.

But do you believe in gravity? How about general relativity? What do you believe gravity is? Gravitons? But this can't be proven either. We can't detect them, but we believe they're there. Most of the people on this planet will attest that indeed the apple falls towards the ground, and their feet stay planted on the earth. But it can't be proven, so I reckon you don't believe this is true. After all, most people will also attest that they have had some type of experience with ghosts or paranormal activity.

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

As I mentioned before, your question of the possibility of ghosts is real. To be able to prove that ghosts exist is near impossible, but the odds are in favor that they do. And if you're going to place a bet, the smart thing to do, is bet where the odds are in your favor, or don't bet at all.

I do not understand your logic that anyone who holds belief in their own experiences has psychological defects. I haven't met the person who started this topic, but I would assume they are sane and mentally healthy. Especially since their experiences can be related to multiple individuals. If it's all in their head, they must have some pretty crazy brain power to change the perception of their family members too.

Sometimes you have to let go a little. Reality is a perception. Proof is temporary. You can attempt to hold on to your world and barracade yourself with laws and rules to bring comforting integrity to your life, to establish some type of meaning---but it's like trying to grab a handful of sand, although the individual granules are solid, collectively, the sand will slip right through your fingers. And the truth is, this isn't a flaw or fault, and I'm not ragging on you, most people are like this. It's human nature to strive for proof and foundation, for truth and explanations. Even I have fallen victim to this, as I like to believe that I have control over my life and that my ultimate outcome is not dependant on fate. But I do realize that in this world, whether the topic is ghosts, love, the universe, or humanity... there is no true explanation, just theory... and as you implied, theory on its own doesn't hold much weight, without belief. But with belief, it can become something that can become strikingly real---just like the belief you may have, that gravity exists. Your belief is probably from your experience of walking down the street, or jumping on the spot. Just like the belief of many people (including many in this discussion), is based on their real-life experiences. It's not something to dismiss as impossible. You just have to understand, that conceptionally... it's possible. And all because you personally have not witnessed certain things, does not rule it out as impossible.

Justin

Quote:
Originally Posted by RO-bemve
Ghost: the spirit of a dead person, sometimes represented as a pale, almost transparent image of that person, which some people believe appears to people who are alive. ( http://dictionary.cambridge.org/defi...2780&dict=CALD )

Now, please explain to me again how the laws of nature make clear the fact that human beings have spirits (or souls) for one and that we later see them as ghosts after they are dead?

And sure the laws of nature are very complicated as you just proved....and maybe not complete yet, but the quantum physics and particle theory is still just a theory just like any other one, it’s not a law. But wasn’t the law of gravity once a theory? Yes, but it was proven right and couldn’t be proven wrong unlike this theory which like you said “there is no definiate way to prove the theory right, or wrong”. Well why not?

“Physical laws are distinguished from scientific theories by their simplicity. Scientific theories have many of the same properties as laws, but are generally more complex than laws; they have many component parts, and are more likely to change as the body of available experimental data and analysis develops. “ – Wikipedia
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_nature )

So theories are NOT part of the laws of nature. Sure there MIGHT be stuff around us that we can’t explain quite yet but I don’t like assuming things….

And as for the belief…pffft…come on…if half the world sees dragons does it make them real? 1000 years ago if someone told me they saw a stick that makes light without fire (flashlight), I would say I don’t believe them because its existence can’t be proven (at the time). Therefore if it can’t be proven, it doesn’t exist! If you think otherwise….then I own 3 million Ferraris FXX, care to prove me wrong?

Last edited by Justin e36; 06-15-2005 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:24 PM   #38
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I don't believe in ghosts, spirits, yes.
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigD
Second, I have to side with RO-bemve here. Not in attitude but in his point. What Justin wrote does a good job of explaining the basics of why scientists believe that parallel dimensions exist. But I don't see how you can from that, derive that when people die we actually don't simply cease to function but some as of yet unquantifiable part of us moves on to another dimension, and sometimes, for scientifically unknown reasons, stays here to mess with the living... that's reaching a bit far don't you think?
I never said that ghosts exist. I was providing an answer to his question, if there is a possibility that ghosts can exist, from a scientific perspective... nothing more.

Whether they do exist, or they don't, is not my jugement to make. On a personal level, I do believe they exist, because I've witnessed some pretty screwed up things in my time... some that you know of already, happening in the hospital room. And some things where I wasn't the only person present. I don't expect others to believe in these things without actually experiencing them.

However, I do believe an open mind is essential to understanding and growth both on a personal level, and a socioeconomic level. Instead of saying, "no, it's impossible. if you experience these things, you have mental problems"... you should at least acknowledge that it's a possibility, but it's not a belief that you hold based on your own experiences. That's a little short-sighted, don't you think?

Last edited by Justin e36; 06-15-2005 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 06-15-2005, 07:38 PM   #40
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i believe there are ghosts...if you guys have ever actually seen Jins, some pretty ****ed up shit involoving them (Jins are a type of ghost/spirit)

the only two occurences i know of involving them is:

1. my aunt thought that my great grand father (her grand father) couldn't summon Jins so he called her into the living room...he told her to stand still and not move...she was like ok w.e. nothings gonna happen...so my g.g.f chanted some words over and over. After he was done he told her to look to her right and surprisingly enough a Jin was standing right beside her, she fainted and passed out and doesn't even talk about that subject whenever i bring it up so i dont know much about it other than that. I was told this by both my dad and his brother.

2. some guy and his friend were in there house and they had to get some stuff outta the basement...so they go down there and start goin through boxes and w.e. The door they came through (basement entrance) slammed shut and the lights turned off in the basement. They're pretty scared so they yell out to see who closed the door. No one responded. It was dark but they could make out a figure of a man with red eyes at the top of the steps. They call out to him and ask "who is it" the person didnt respond, and at that point was advancing towards them not by walking down the steps but rather what they say "floating". There shitting bricks at that point and start saying some prayers. The last thing they recalled was opening there eyes and the person gone and the basement not being dark anymore. They went upstairs and the guy that lived there asked his mom if she heard anything when they were down there, and she said "i didnt hear anything at all". I heard of this from my brothers friend.
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:15 PM   #41
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In general you know I agree with you. Your experiences are some of the rare things I know that make me want to believe. But even what you've told me is not ghost related.

But I still say that evidence for parallel dimensions is not sufficient enough as premise to conclude that ghosts are possible. I'm not saying it's an invalid argument, only that it's an argumentative fallacy. You're reaching too far. This way, you can name ANYTHING that admits the possibility of something unknown happening, and deduce that it's therefore possible that anything is possible. Is that a valid statement? Yeah I guess. But how valuable is it? See what I mean?

I know you're just addressing his questioning of the possibility, so I guess I'm not quite replying to just you. I'm generally saying that it's more important to speak about how LIKELY it is that they exist, not if it's possible. Anything is possible. But the strength of the premises of an argument determines it's value, and I think this one has little so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin e36
I never said that ghosts exist. I was providing an answer to his question, if there is a possibility that ghosts can exist, from a scientific perspective.

Whether they do exist, or they don't, is not my jugement to make. I do believe they exist, because I've witnessed some pretty screwed up things in my time... some that you know of already, happening in the hospital room. And things where there were many witnesses around. Whether others believe or not really doesn't make any difference to me.

But I believe an open mind is essential to understanding and growth both on a personal level, and a socioeconomic level. Instead of saying, "no, it's impossible. if you believe it, you have mental problems"... you should at least acknowledge that it's a possibility, but it's not a belief that you hold.
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:15 PM   #42
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Well I can't really argue anymore since this is getting a little too philosophical and you're now starting to question the existence of everything including the laws of nature. So do you believe in life? Maybe everything is just in our minds...maybe we don't exist...what do you believe?

So. Ghosts (in the full sense of the word) don't exist. And since my knowledge of quantum physics is limited, I'm not convinced that they even CAN exist.


Quote:
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Newton's law of gravity is not a law, it is a theory
So are you saying Newton's theory/law of gravity isnt a law (of nature)? hmm....
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Old 06-15-2005, 08:58 PM   #43
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I don't believe in ghosts. But I don't completely dismiss the possibility of their existence, although I give it miniscual value.

If ghosts do exist, they would have to be made of matter for me to be able to see them. Because unless light can reflect off them, human eyes can't detect them. And if light can reflect off them, then they have to be made of physical matter. Are they? Can they be?

I don't care much about the ghost thing, but what I find absolutely fascinating is that:

when science goes against peoples beliefs, they dismiss even the most widely known and accepted scientific findings and claim that scienctists don't really know anything.
But to make their beliefs believable, people take the vaguest, most abstract scientific theories and draw absurd connections and claim to "prove" their superstitions scientifically.

What a fuc*ing joke.
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:18 PM   #44
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The main reason I don't believe in the supernatural is simple. It always happens where no one, or no one credible, can attest to it, or record it. It's always some group of Mexican farmers, or some redneck who's a few cans short of a sixpack upstairs, that sees these things. Like Denis Leary says, the Virgin Mary has a big enough budget, that if she wanted to say something she'd appear in the middle of Air Force One right after Harison Ford's close up and say "hey, stop putting shit in the coffee".

I think you confused ghosts with UFO's.

There are many things we have no clue about, history has proven this. I personaly belive that ghosts are just people who have existed at one time or another therefore they exist. Time is man made, somthing either exists or it dosn't.

Have you guys ever heard about the Philadelphia Project?
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&rl...roject&spell=1

Last edited by coolhand; 06-15-2005 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 06-15-2005, 09:52 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekniq
I think you confused ghosts with UFO's.
In that paragraph I was talking about both and neither. I was talking about the general notion of the supernatural phenomona. You can't be selective. If you believe in ghosts then you also have to believe in all the rest of it.
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