94 Euro M3 vs. 97-99 US. spec M3

[T.Dot_E30]

Originally Posted by SickFinga

3. E46 m3 is faster than e46 m3.

[SickFinga]

lol
5. is E46 M3 is faster than evo E36 M3

[AshBrar]

Let me add my 2 cents as I have a euro. I've driven several north american M3s (both 3.0 & 3.2). The differences here are twofold if you compare to the 3.2:

The euro has a 3.15 rear end, so off the line it's lower displacement and higher gearing nullify the HP advantage over the 3.2. They are both about 5.5 second 0-60 cars. All the difference is when you're at speed. Above 4k rpm, the difference is VERY noticeable between the cars. Trap speeds are probably around 3-4mph higher for the euro showing the extra 40+hp.

People always exaggerate when talking about HP differences and how that translates into a side by side comparison. 40hp is a big difference, but it doesn't mean the higher HP car will CREAM the lower HP car. It will pull smartly and "walk" away - at speed in this case. It's almost always about who's in the right gear and who can shift better if you're in two cars with less than 20hp difference. In this case the driver & gear still matter, as I'll tell you if my car is only doing 3000 rpm, and a north american spec car (say 3.2) is next to me and we go for it, I won't be pulling away at all (may even fall behind momentarily) until the engine picks up some steam.

Who cares anyway, these cars are not about straight line, if you haven't ever had them at a track or done a decent driver's ed school in them, then you're missing the whole point. The best mod most people can do to their cars is to improve the driver

Ash

[Ant118]

well that intake on the Euro 3.2L makes a big difference on the US Spec, the intake on the US spec goes from big to small, lots of air restriction. Thats what we did on our old 98,

[thinair]

I didn't think the euro intake setup fit the US engines. You're the first person I've heard of doing this. Most people just swap for the M50 intake manifold with great results. Do you have any pics??

Also, the e46 M3 has pretty short gearing in comparison to the e36's with a 5spd. I'm not sure what the e36 M3 Evo has as a final drive ratio though.

[Ant118]

No i didnt do i was gonna do something like that, the thing I found is that if you swap the E36 325i intake it is accutally bigger all the way through, that makes SO much differece. But my E36 M3 is SOLD but my E30 M3 is gonna be WAY faster, Im buying a different shell with a cage already in it and put my 2.3L M3 engine in it then bore it out to a 2.5L and ill be pushing like anywhere from 290-300+hp. The for the road im thinking either 3.2L US spec M3 Engine with Intake swap, or like a 91 M5 engine, if i can find one!

[SickFinga]

Originally Posted by Ant118

No i didnt do i was gonna do something like that, the thing I found is that if you swap the E36 325i intake it is accutally bigger all the way through, that makes SO much differece. But my E36 M3 is SOLD but my E30 M3 is gonna be WAY faster, Im buying a different shell with a cage already in it and put my 2.3L M3 engine in it then bore it out to a 2.5L and ill be pushing like anywhere from 290-300+hp. The for the road im thinking either 3.2L US spec M3 Engine with Intake swap, or like a 91 M5 engine, if i can find one!

Yours or your dads?

290-300+hp on a stoked 2.5l engine??

I remember me and Rob had a little race, let me tell you something, it didnt have anywhere near 290hp.

[Daydream///M3]

well said ash....

Also, when I put in my M50 manifold.... i lost quite a bit of torque but the amount of bhp gained above 4500 rpm seemed pretty good. Dont actually think it was as much as I thought since the meer fact that I lost so much torque and then had a surge of power up top made me think the car was faster. I know dyno results show that the m50 manifold is a good 10 bhp but then again with regards to what ash said..... 10 bhp difference in a car is really nothing when racing.

Then again, On your car vlad.... MArco said he picked up 30wheel hp with the addition of the m50 ontop of his blower so its a good mod for you.

[AshBrar]

Originally Posted by Daydream///M3

well said ash....

Also, when I put in my M50 manifold.... i lost quite a bit of torque but the amount of bhp gained above 4500 rpm seemed pretty good. Dont actually think it was as much as I thought since the meer fact that I lost so much torque and then had a surge of power up top made me think the car was faster. I know dyno results show that the m50 manifold is a good 10 bhp but then again with regards to what ash said..... 10 bhp difference in a car is really nothing when racing.

Then again, On your car vlad.... MArco said he picked up 30wheel hp with the addition of the m50 ontop of his blower so its a good mod for you.

Yes, good point on losing low end and then "feeling" like you gained more up top because you lost some down low. Placebo effect is what half the tuners out there rely on to sell their product. Unfortunate but true.

Also all you North American spec guys out there should remember that you need a tuned chip for mods like the M50 manifold and euro HFM and intake. While I was still considering/looking for a North American spec M3, I was already sure that I would have done the full cam kit with Jim C programming. That would've given me about the same if not more power than the euro motor, and more torque (and more torque everywhere on the rpm scale compared to stock). Problem is on a 3.2 engine that is $3300 USD + labour and taxes and shipping. It's cheaper on an OBDI 3.0 engine ($2400 USD for parts), but those are rare around here as they were US only cars in 1995.

Best bang for buck in a North American spec M3 is the M50 manifold, the euro HFM & intake, along with a properly tuned chip. This is a bonafide 270 - 275 hp upgrade for half the price of the cam conversion. At this point, there won't be much difference between a such equipped north american M3 and a euro....

Ash

[just325iS]

This explains why the hp difference between my car and a M3 when both are blown are no that much different. But I did give up some torque though. I was telling people that for some reason, my motor was making a lot of power compare to the M motor. I just always thought that it was because I motor can handle boost better. Plus, I thought it was because my motor was a '92 non vanos it made a different also. Plus, my ecu is so easy to tune.

[Ant118]

Originally Posted by SickFinga

Yours or your dads?

290-300+hp on a stoked 2.5l engine??

I remember me and Rob had a little race, let me tell you something, it didnt have anywhere near 290hp.

Mine and it is possible im getting the Turner kit plus a few extras which will get it up to atleast 300hp i talked to a few guys who got it done and it was about 300-310

[GR8 Ride]

Originally Posted by Ant118

Mine and it is possible im getting the Turner kit plus a few extras which will get it up to atleast 300hp i talked to a few guys who got it done and it was about 300-310

Well yours, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that your dad is paying for it.

Anyhow, I wouldn't trust anybody who says you're getting 300-310 HP out of a 2.5L stroker motor without some serious work done to it. Turner's kit is good for a 240-250 HP motor, but that's about it.

300+ HP out of a 2.5L motor is going to require some serious, aftermarket engine management, and some top end work (you can get close, say 280-290 without doing bottom end, and without running straight 110 unleaded). On pump gas (even 94 octane), and top end (cam work only), you're not going to get 300+ out of the motor.

Unless of course, you're counting on the TMS stickers giving you 10-15 HP each.


Pat

[greekthang]

Originally Posted by GR8 Ride

Well yours, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that your dad is paying for it.

Anyhow, I wouldn't trust anybody who says you're getting 300-310 HP out of a 2.5L stroker motor without some serious work done to it. Turner's kit is good for a 240-250 HP motor, but that's about it.

300+ HP out of a 2.5L motor is going to require some serious, aftermarket engine management, and some top end work (you can get close, say 280-290 without doing bottom end, and without running straight 110 unleaded). On pump gas (even 94 octane), and top end (cam work only), you're not going to get 300+ out of the motor.

Unless of course, you're counting on the TMS stickers giving you 10-15 HP each.


Pat

Totally agree Pat. No way your going to see 310hp. John at Raven performance had a E30 M3 with stage 3 EVO and he was making 285-290 and that motor was completely done to the T and your thinking a kit will give you that. No chance you have to completely redo the entire motor from top to bottom with some serious engine management and you or your dad better have deep pockets because its going to cost you large

[GR8 Ride]

John's wasn't putting out anywhere near 285-290, despite John's best claims otherwise (and I've known John for a long time).

His motor initially was dyno'd (with the stage 3 EVO kit on it) at 215 to the rear wheels; a bit of tuning got him up to 230 at the rear wheels.

His motor might have put out 250-260, tops.

Steve's motor, which is a stage 3 EVO 2.5L with aftermarket management, makes about 285 on an engine dyno. To get well over 300 HP would require race fuel, and some bottom end work. Even then, the lifespan of the motor would be severely restricted.



Pat

[Robb]

It is possible to get 300hp (at the crank) on a 2.5L motor, all you need is a fully built Ron Checca 2.5L Stroker motor, with an engine management system, carbon intake, etc etc.. its big bills though...