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Old 05-31-2004, 01:29 AM   #31
golden
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im pretty sure all manufacturers state numbers to the crank
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Old 05-31-2004, 05:31 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpudBoy
I know but when I mulled over upgrading my 328i I came to the conclusion that nothing else but an M would do.
SpudBoy,

"M" is a special BMW class. But you are forgetting something called - progress. Performance & equipment that used to be found only in previous generations of "M" class can be found in non-"M" BMWs. Just like many parts (i.e., suspension and brakes) from Porsche 911 made its way to Boxter in Year 2002 and 2003 models.

To say that ANY "M" is better than 330Ci (especially with M-sport package or the latest 330 Ci "M Performance Edition") is simply not true.

For the sake of agrument, lets briefly look at your 5-year old 1999 M-Coupe (I will assume it is US version with 240hp vs European one with 300+hp) against 2004 330Ci or 330Ci M Performance package.

On paper specs, they are pretty close:

M-Coupe '99: Horsepower 240 @ 6,000 rpm Torque .....236 lb-ft @ 3,800 rpm
330Ci: Horsepower 225 @ 5900 Torque (ft/lb @ rpm) 214 @ 3500
330Ci M" Horsepower 235 @ 5900 Torque (ft/lb @ rpm) 222 @ 3500

Stock Performance (0-60miles/hr)

M-Coupe '99: 5.5 seconds
330Ci 2001+ Officially 6.3 seconds but most people, including Automobile article above - 5.9sec, easily get 6.0 seconds.
330Ci M 2004: 0.5 seconds faster than standard 330Ci, meaning anywhere from 5.5 - 5.8 seconds depends if you are using 6 or 6.3 seconds for 330Ci.

Curb weight:
M-Coupe '99: 3000 lbs [advantage M-copue but not even small back seats]
330Ci : 4450 lbs

Conclusion
The stock M Coupe may be ahead in 0-60 stats by a couple of tenths of second to 330Ci M and around half a second to stock 330Ci. And it does have a bit of weight advantage for the race track driving.

But what do you gain in 330Ci in return for these very small differences in real life comparison (it does not looks like IERRAHH is trying to build a dedicated race track car):

> A much more practical car for everyday driving and which will easily keep up with a 5-years old M-Coupe on the race track (see suspension below).
- full / comfortable back seats, a larger trunk, much roomier front seats/area.
> One of the best & latest suspensions [M-Sport package or M Performance Edition], versus M-Coupe ('99) which uses a 14-year old rear suspension design. The stock M-Coupe suspension has been reported to be soft for a true high performance car (do internet searches for proof).
> A lot SAFER car from its size/weight and the latest safety technology, including head airbags.
> I am sure if we compare other features and stock equipment, 330 will come out on top.


If you are still reading to this point, I would like to say that M-Coupe is a unique car and it has its place in a BMW lineup / history. For 2001, US version M Coupe finally got a bigger engine (similar to European version), which delivered 315 hp and 251 lb- lbft. of torque ft. – fully 75 hp and 15 lb-ft. more than the previous engine’s output. (The M3 engine version produces 333 hp and 262 lb-ft.)

My reason for this message is NOT to knock your M-Coupe ('99) but to simply prove my point that saying "any M will do" is just not realistic.

Peace.


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Old 05-31-2004, 12:36 PM   #33
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alexm520, thanks
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Old 05-31-2004, 01:51 PM   #34
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alexm520, get your facts straight. 0.5 sec with 10hp upgrade, lol I wish it was like that.


EDIT-
ohhh and 2002 M coupe got same engine as E46 m3

EDIT-
ohhh and even if M coupe uses 15 year old technology suspension, it is still prolly the best handling bimmer to date.

EDIT-
ohhh and 330 doesnt weight 4400 pounds, prolly 3400 pounds.

Last edited by SickFinga; 05-31-2004 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 05-31-2004, 08:28 PM   #35
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More things alex was incorrect about:

-> If you're going to use the 5.5-5.8 for the ZHP, at least use the lowest figures printed for the S52 Coupe. I've seen 5.1.

-> Who says that a more practical car is "better"? What if one does not need any more than 2 seats? The rear is just dead weight. If you're going to bring up the possibility of needing more seats, we'd all be driving minivans.

-> Your assumption that a stock ZHP will keep up with a stock S52 M Coupe on a track is laughable. It has a lower center of gravity, much less weight, more power, and a whole lot less filtering in its controls.

-> Compare features and equipment? What exactly are you driving a BMW for? Acura has plenty of features, see them.

-> Bigger engine? The M Coupe always had a 3.2L.

Anyways, you seem to judge cars based on acceleration and other numerical figures, which for all it's accuracy does not translate into real world judgement. ierrahh, drive all the cars you are interested in and make a judgement from there. Honesty, judging from your choice in heavy rims and concern for maintenance schedules and repairs, something like a G35 would be perfect. It's pretty clear that outright performance is not exactly your goal, so something more comfortable, more reliable, but still quick would fit your needs better.
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Old 05-31-2004, 10:20 PM   #36
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I think Alex makes some excellent points.

M coupe suspension is an old design and it doesn't feel as stable during high speed corning as the e46 330i/ci (or e36 328i for that matter). That being said, the more pliable suspension set up tranfers the chassis' weight nicely and I can corner faster in the coupe than in my 328i. The M coupe scares me sometimes because it's limits show earlier than any e46 I've driven. The track would demand stiffer springs.

As for acceleration there is no contest vs. 330ci. MC is faster. The S54 M coupe is only marginally faster than the S52 and that difference mainly appears above 150 km/h.

No back seat/creature comforts. Well this is a personal choice, you either want a sports car or a daily driver. If I could only have one car it probably wouldn't be an M coupe.

I never look to the internet for proof of anything.

ierrahh seems to be looking for more performance and I went down that road before and came to the conclusion that the e46 330 ci was not a significant performance upgrade over the e36 328i. (330 perf pack was not available back then).

ierrahh: Test drive an e36 M3 if you need a back seat.
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Old 06-01-2004, 12:29 AM   #37
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Guys,

1) Yes, "2002 M coupe got same engine as E46 m3" ... That's what I said in my previous post - see the last paragraph.

2) "330 M Performance edition" gets faster 0.5 seconds acceleration because of two improvements:

a) Extra 10 hp
b) More aggressive gear ratios than standard 6-speed trans on 330.

3) 330's curb weight is around 3450 lbs, I made a typo in previous reply.

4) Considering E46 M3 is rated at 4.8 - 5.0 seconds and it has an extra 93 hps than M-Coupe, 5.1 seconds for 240hp M-Coupe (1999-2000) that Mystical saw is unlikely.

A more likely scenario is 5.1 seconds has been reported for a 315hp M-Coupe introduced in US for Year 2001 .... or someone from Europe was posting their numbers.

Need more proof? Take a look at this Top Gear magazine article about ALL BMW M Cars - these are European specs & cost. Scroll down to find the car #4 (1998 - 2002 M Coupe with 325bhp or 315hp). It is listed 0-62mph in 5.3 seconds; so 5.1 seconds for 0-60 makes sense.

http://www.e46toronto.com/forum/show...b=5&o=&fpart=1

5) I am not saying that a practical car is "better". I simply interpreted Ierrahh's post as someone who wants more power but does not want to give up a bit of practicality because he was planning to test drive a G35 Coupe (with back seats). I figured if he wanted a pure sports car vs sports coupe, then he would be going for a Nissan 350Z test drive.
After all, both G35 Coupe and 350Z share the same platform and engine but one is more of a sports car (350Z) and another is sports coupe (G35).

6) I agreed that M-Coupe (240hp/236lbs torque) has faster acceleration than any 330Ci .... not because of extra 5hp but due to extra 14 lbs of torque. Torque drives 0-60 specs and Horsepower drives top speed.

At the big race track like Mosport, 0-60 numbers are not "AS" relevant, except when you are coming out of a hairpin corner like "5B". It is higher corners speed that make you faster "around the track" - meaning, tires and suspension setup. On top of all that (and much more other technical stuff), we would have to assume both cars are driven by drivers with the same/identical track experience.

7) Unless someone is building a dedicated track car, most people like and enjoy some features and additional equipment.
I was not implying tons of useless gadgets like on GM or other cars, just some extra equipment on one car vs another.

8) Yes, M Coupe always had a 3.2L. But in North America for Year 1999 and 2000 this engine produced 240hp and for Year 2001 later it produced 315 hp.... that's a fact.

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Old 06-01-2004, 02:02 PM   #38
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You base your judgements VERY heavily upon acceleration and feature content. Nothing wrong with that if it's what is important to you, it's just really, really not the right criteria for choosing an "ultimate driving machine". If you place high importance on just those, I'd say the G35 is a much better purchase. Just about identical acceleraton, and more features for a much lower sticker. On the other hand, I probably wouldn't buy one because it's simply too big and heavy - 2 factors (size and weight) which you never seem to address.

In any case, the market today is staggeringly competitive, and it really is hard to go wrong. The worst performing cars in the near-luxury class and better than the best of 5 years ago, it's quite impressive. Everybody just go out and enjoy their cars.
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Old 06-02-2004, 12:22 AM   #39
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I'm sorry I went off topic. These M coupe fans are DEDICATED
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Old 06-02-2004, 12:39 AM   #40
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Hey Jay,

I was ready for a nasty reply but .... I am not here to bust your balls, we all sometimes post a quick reply without really thinking through.

I will say a couple of things for the record.

1. This all started by SpudBoy insisting that nothing but any "M" BMW will do.
I disagreed with him and tried to explain that the current non-M Bimmers have come a long way in performance (acceleration & handling). As a result, the difference between older "M" and current non-M Bimmers in performance is negligible.
The only way to prove my point was to compare cars' specs and their respective acceleration numbers.

If I was truly obsessed with acceleration numbers and nothing else as you insist, I would have bought a Mustang GT (5litres or Cobra) for half the price of a 328/330. I know that there is A LOT more to a BMW than acceleration numbers .... I would not be owning my second one - same shape, same interior/exterior colours .... that should tell you something.


2. You are saying I never addressed the size and weight?

The following was copied from my last long reply (I fixed my typo about Bimmer weight):

"Curb weight:
M-Coupe '99: 3000 lbs [advantage M-copue but not even small back seats]
330Ci : 3450 lbs"

Of all the specs and numbers that I could have chosen about these cars, I only posted Engine rating and Weight.


3. You wrote: "I probably wouldn't buy one because it's simply too big and heavy ".
I am assuming you are talking about both 330 & G35 Coupe because they weigh more or less the same - 3450lbs.

We all know that today's cars have grown in size and weight, regardless if it is a Civic or Cadillac. But comparing E46 3-Series against today's cars, it is still considered as a COMPACT size car.

Granted, against your 15-year old E30 325 it may look big and heavy, but I wander what you think or what words you would use to describe the other cars in today's world that fall under a larger - MID-SIZE, FULL-SIZE, SUVs (large and small) categories.

And don't get me even started on SAFETY of E46 3-Series against much smaller cars that you seem to prefer.

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