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Old 11-02-2004, 12:24 AM   #61
windwagen
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Originally Posted by Bmwstylz
wow ! only about 25 replies and finally someone in the same mindset as me - D12. Nice summary of the facts

REading the responses I am thinking this is an E39 board or forum version of the video game lemmings: "540 ... me too!... me too!" jesus. I can only speculate that you are either all midle-aged men in your 40s who drive 5 series, or young guys with their first e30 or e36 who think *they* know bmws, and "a 5 series must be better than a 3 series cuz its a higher number, right? Bigger engine = better car"

I have driven both the 540 6speed and a 330ci 5speed... and I can say wihtout doubt that the 3 wins hands down! It has a much lighter, crisper feel to the handling. Better fuel consumption. Comparable performance, and it looks about 10x better! You can't beat an inline six for smoothless... The e39 while classy is certainly not the best looking beemer to date. Its fast in 540 form, but feels like a heavy, ponderous tank at times.

And lets not forget styling - the e46 coupe is gorgeous while the e39 is a lackluster if bland, bloated design. I hated it when it came out, but have grown to midly like it now. Compare it to an e34 though and its chubbyness shows throw.

I vote 330ci !


C'mon ...Any 3 series will beat a 5 on a TIGHT track because of the weight advantage...but anywhere else, all 3 series drivers (except M3) knows their A$$ is gonna get smoked hard by a 540.

"lighter, crisper feel to the handling. Better fuel consumption." - sound like excuses
"Comparable performance" - NOT accelleration
"looks about 10x better" - subjective
"You can't beat an inline six for smoothless" - nothing unsmooth about the V8
"feels like a heavy, ponderous tank at times" - only when NOT busy killing a 3 series

You forgot overall fun factor - advantage 5??

At the risk of sounding like a snob, I really enjoy hunting down 3s and killing them...heh heh....270 degree ramps, accelleration lanes, on the highway, at the stoplights...540 will tromp a 330 with authority. If you like getting killed by the car you "could have" had, get the 3.

One more thing, my cousin says you can't get a heated steering wheel in a 3. I'm not sure if this true. I thought this was a useless feature, but actually, I use a lot in the cooler weather. Works awesome!
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:30 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by vaio76109
What im saying is that the 4.4 doesnt pull as smoothly as the 3.0 does. The 4.4 has a lot of low end, put no top end. The 3.0 has it more evenly spread out...
Pardon me? You're saying that an abundance of low end torque makes it less smooth than a rev-happy 6-cylinder? Maybe it's because you can't control the throttle properly? The 4.4 has got to be one of the smoothest motors out there, with broad power delivery and shitloads of power on the highway.
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:45 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwstylz
wow ! only about 25 replies and finally someone in the same mindset as me - D12. Nice summary of the facts

REading the responses I am thinking this is an E39 board or forum version of the video game lemmings: "540 ... me too!... me too!" jesus. I can only speculate that you are either all midle-aged men in your 40s who drive 5 series, or young guys with their first e30 or e36 who think *they* know bmws, and "a 5 series must be better than a 3 series cuz its a higher number, right? Bigger engine = better car"

I have driven both the 540 6speed and a 330ci 5speed... and I can say wihtout doubt that the 3 wins hands down! It has a much lighter, crisper feel to the handling. Better fuel consumption. Comparable performance, and it looks about 10x better! You can't beat an inline six for smoothless... The e39 while classy is certainly not the best looking beemer to date. Its fast in 540 form, but feels like a heavy, ponderous tank at times.

And lets not forget styling - the e46 coupe is gorgeous while the e39 is a lackluster if bland, bloated design. I hated it when it came out, but have grown to midly like it now. Compare it to an e34 though and its chubbyness shows throw.

I vote 330ci !


Wow. Not to make stereotypes (which you managed to be good at), but are you someone that wanted a 5 but couldn't afford one? Seriously, just because everyone is agreeing upon something doesn't mean you have to label everybody. Yes the 3-series is more snappy, but have you ever gone on long trips in a 5er, especially a 540i? On a business trip that I tagged along with my Dad (make fun of me because I don't have a 5 if you want, I don't give a shit), we went 4 hours nonstop, and after getting out, you don't even feel that you were in a car for so long.

For a daily driver and all-round fun car, you really can't go wrong with either. If it was my money, I would get the 5, not because "it's a higher number and therefore better," but because I like it more. THAT'S THE KEY. Drive both, pick the one you like more. Just watch out, once you dip into the deep well of torque that is 4.4i, you will be tainted forever
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:56 AM   #64
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Vaio - I still don't agree...My 540 starts pulling HARDER at above 4000 RPM - and at least in any gear except 5 and 6, the redline comes so fast, I don't have time to realize any lack of top end.
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Old 11-02-2004, 12:57 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by windwagen
Vaio - I still don't agree...My 540 starts pulling HARDER at above 4000 RPM - and at least in any gear except 5 and 6, the redline comes so fast, I don't have time to realize any lack of top end.
I'm with windwagon. Just because it stops producing more power doesn't mean it stops producing power. Maybe it's time for vaio's dad to change the air filter?
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Old 11-02-2004, 01:07 AM   #66
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Hey Bmwstylz, don't feel bad just because more people voted for the 5 instead of your car

Sorry...couldn't resist
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Old 11-02-2004, 04:15 AM   #67
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well a decent 330XI driver with a 5psd could have a chance to decimate a 95 or 97 auto 540 =)
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Old 11-02-2004, 10:16 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwstylz
wow ! only about 25 replies and finally someone in the same mindset as me - D12. Nice summary of the facts

REading the responses I am thinking this is an E39 board or forum version of the video game lemmings: "540 ... me too!... me too!" jesus. I can only speculate that you are either all midle-aged men in your 40s who drive 5 series, or young guys with their first e30 or e36 who think *they* know bmws, and "a 5 series must be better than a 3 series cuz its a higher number, right? Bigger engine = better car"

I have driven both the 540 6speed and a 330ci 5speed... and I can say wihtout doubt that the 3 wins hands down! It has a much lighter, crisper feel to the handling. Better fuel consumption. Comparable performance, and it looks about 10x better! You can't beat an inline six for smoothless... The e39 while classy is certainly not the best looking beemer to date. Its fast in 540 form, but feels like a heavy, ponderous tank at times.

And lets not forget styling - the e46 coupe is gorgeous while the e39 is a lackluster if bland, bloated design. I hated it when it came out, but have grown to midly like it now. Compare it to an e34 though and its chubbyness shows throw.

I vote 330ci !



Judging from your post, I honestly think you've never actually driven a 540i. Firstly, IT IS A BETTER CAR. Price generally dictates what advantages a car has over another, that's fact, especially levels of car within a manufacturer. Looks are completely subjective. You need to talk only about facts for this discussion.
Why is the 540i 20 grand more? WHY? Is it because it's slower, or has an unrefined, notchy engine? Maybe it's because the interior is cheaper looking when compared to the 3 series? Why are there levels of cars within the BMW arsenal? Why don't we all drive 760s? It's because they need to sort out price brackets for everyone(in order to sell more cars to more people), and with the more expensive cars comes better technology, better safety, better refinement, better engines etc...it's clear, I cannot understand how you can disclaim that truth?? The 3-series is the entry level lineup from BMW, yet you're claiming it's a handsdown winner over the more luxurious, more refined, more expensive, more potent older brother. I just don't get it. The 330 is a killer car, I would take one any day of the week...if there wasn't a 540 already in my driveway.

"comparable performance" ?????

That statement is completely retarded. The two are opposite ends of the spectrum in performance.

The difference is NIGHT & DAY.




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Old 11-02-2004, 10:24 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by anfreny
well a decent 330XI driver with a 5psd could have a chance to decimate a 95 or 97 auto 540 =)
"decimate" is a strong word. The 330 would be lucky if it could even keep up. The non sport auto 540 may not look threatening, but beware the sleeper!
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Old 11-02-2004, 11:15 PM   #70
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GEE$ - Bigger does not always equal better. And after some quick research on the net (http://www.car-videos.com/performanc...d1=0&Speed2=60) it appears the 0-60mph times for a 2001 330ci are faster than for a 2001 540i. Still it is "comparable performance" since it falls within about half a second.

You say you think I've never driven a 540i? Why because I don't march lockstep with your belief that it is superior - just because you own one? More options don't make for a better car. What bmws have you driven other than your 540 with ... automatic transmission.

I am not the only one that feels this way - look at the residual values for used BMWs. The much "better Bmw 540" with its "better technology, better safety, better refinement, better engines etc...it's clear, I cannot understand how you can disclaim that truth?? " Well apparently used car buyers can disclaim that fact. Look at the used values of say a 98 5 series versus a 98 3 series ... The 5 endure much higher depreciation and the prices end up almost equalling out (within a couple thousand) even though the original selling price was probably "20 grand more." This is a very capitalistic perspective but the market never lies!

That said - the looks are completely subjective I agree. but isn't that an important part of buying a new car? I am sure a lot of people would and do choose a 3 series over a 5 - based on looks alone (irrespective of price/ performance).

Windwagen - I don't feel bad because more people didn't vote for "my car"! I don't even own a 3... but the heaviest, most behemoth bmw of all - a euro-spec 7 series! Which must be better than a 540 (according to Gee$) because my car is bigger with more options? right? hmm....

Although maybe this argument comes down to an age thing... 5 series screams old man.. and 3 series coupe says young playboy. I'm willing to bet that buying habits are strongly correlated with age.

That said... I just want you all to know that I love all BMWs equally! but prefer to drive certain models more

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Old 11-03-2004, 12:03 AM   #71
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Ooops...sorry, I confused youwith Vaio...

I've seen that car video site before. I don't know where they get their specs from, but they show a 330 at mid 5 sec, and another one at mid 6 sec (both indicate 5 speed) ....whatever... I find 0-60 numbers on the web for any car all over the map. 6.7sec for an automatic 540 sounds slow.

All I know is that every 330 I drag race, ends up way behind
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Old 11-03-2004, 10:07 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwstylz
GEE$ - Bigger does not always equal better. And after some quick research on the net (http://www.car-videos.com/performanc...d1=0&Speed2=60) it appears the 0-60mph times for a 2001 330ci are faster than for a 2001 540i. Still it is "comparable performance" since it falls within about half a second.

You say you think I've never driven a 540i? Why because I don't march lockstep with your belief that it is superior - just because you own one? More options don't make for a better car. What bmws have you driven other than your 540 with ... automatic transmission.

I am not the only one that feels this way - look at the residual values for used BMWs. The much "better Bmw 540" with its "better technology, better safety, better refinement, better engines etc...it's clear, I cannot understand how you can disclaim that truth?? " Well apparently used car buyers can disclaim that fact. Look at the used values of say a 98 5 series versus a 98 3 series ... The 5 endure much higher depreciation and the prices end up almost equalling out (within a couple thousand) even though the original selling price was probably "20 grand more." This is a very capitalistic perspective but the market never lies!

That said - the looks are completely subjective I agree. but isn't that an important part of buying a new car? I am sure a lot of people would and do choose a 3 series over a 5 - based on looks alone (irrespective of price/ performance).

Windwagen - I don't feel bad because more people didn't vote for "my car"! I don't even own a 3... but the heaviest, most behemoth bmw of all - a euro-spec 7 series! Which must be better than a 540 (according to Gee$) because my car is bigger with more options? right? hmm....

Although maybe this argument comes down to an age thing... 5 series screams old man.. and 3 series coupe says young playboy. I'm willing to bet that buying habits are strongly correlated with age.

That said... I just want you all to know that I love all BMWs equally! but prefer to drive certain models more



Bmwstylz -

Never once in my post did I say bigger is better. If you reread my post, you'll realize I can be quoted as saying "Price generally dictates what advantages a car has over another" & "and with the more expensive cars comes better technology, better safety, better refinement, better engines etc"

Size has nothing to do with anything, and never did I once say it does. Price certainly does.

I can appreciate your quotes for web times, however, let's be realistic. We all know that web & magazine times are all over the map-and you can never declare a "perfect" time for any particular car. Too many variables. Some people can better mag times, while others are completely unrealistic and therefore cannot. The E46M3 has times from 13.3 to 13.7 in the quarter mile, throughout all the magazines and websites out there. Do you understand how INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT those times really are? If you've raced a car at any of the local tracks(cayuga/st.thomas), you'd understand that .4 of a difference in time makes all the difference in the world. It's not close, by any means.
"since it falls within about half a second." ....even that is a world apart on a quarter mile run.

What bimmers have I driven other than a 540ia? Let's see...

79 633
86 635csi
86 318i
88 325is
87 535i
89 735iL
92 750IL
93 850i
95 540i
95 740iL
96 318i
97 540i
98 328is
2K 325i
2K2 530i

These are examples that I have actually driven. There are even more...I've driven 5x as many manuals. I've been around in the auto industry, even though I'm relatively young at 28. I kick curbs whenever and wherever I can.

You are now adding new ingredients into the pot by saying that "The 5 endure much higher depreciation and the prices end up almost equalling out (within a couple thousand) even though the original selling price was probably "20 grand more." This is a very capitalistic perspective but the market never lies!"

That's great, but depreciation happens to virtually every car...but what does that have to do with anything? You can buy a 95 740il for 13k cdn. And? What does that have to do with anything upon the initial purchase of the vehicle for roughly 120k. ?? Nothing. Depreciation is a moot point when discussing original value of one car vs the original value of another car.


"I am sure a lot of people would and do choose a 3 series over a 5 - based on looks alone (irrespective of price/ performance)"

That's a very interesting statement. I certainly cannot validate that, and I know you cannot either because it's an assumption without any factual backing. The fact is, most 3-series buyers cannot afford a 5 series. It's simply not in the cards for the masses to dish out an extra 20k, when they're not in that price range. It's a simple concept, which is exactly why there are different levels of cars from one manufacturer to the next.



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Old 11-03-2004, 05:35 PM   #73
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A couple points (well 5 actually)

1) regarding the acceleration difference... I don't understand how "INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT" a half second in the quarter mile is. I personally (and I am sure many others) couldn't care less about 1/4mile times. They are not the be-all and end-all tool for judging car supremacy. I am a BMw-lover and I even like the old, slower models, because they are fun to drive. I used to own a vintage 2002 which probably wouldn't score high in your 1/4 mile runs but was a blast to drive. A similar 'numbers' debate occured on bmw newsgroups regarding WRX being faster than most bmws? So What? Being the fastest isn't always the best.

2) Depreciation has a lot to do with buying a car since it is one of the number one costs associated with ownership

3) Again - you seem to be implying that a car that costs $20k more is a superior car with "many advantages". Certainly on paper it may have more options and better "performance" as judged by statistical numbers. but I strongly disagree with the idea that this would make a better car. Since the function of a car is to transport you from point A to point B, All cars achieve this goal. A $2000 e30 can be just as much fun , if not more fun to drive than a brand new M3 if you are in the right mindset.

4) My statement about buying based on looks is not backed up by factual evidence but is certainly believable in many cases. How many times have you bought a car because you liked the over-all look of it? I know I have been drawn to certain brands and models for their looks. Hell I keep buying e36 coupes because the sedan (with almost identical performance) never tickled my fancy!

5) I am happy you have driven all those Bmws. Like you I am young (25) but have driven an extensive repertoire of automobiles including numerous BMWs. In the last few months I have taken a 2004 645ci for a long test-drive on the Autobahn, as well as driving a 2004 M3 Cabriolet, as well as a 97 M3, and a 93 325is, and a ..... so on and so on...

So having said all that, I must re-iterate that I would choose an e46 coupe any day over a 540 (provided I don't have any children) hehe

Over and Out,

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Old 11-03-2004, 06:06 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmwstylz
A couple points (well 5 actually)

1) regarding the acceleration difference... I don't understand how "INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT" a half second in the quarter mile is. I personally (and I am sure many others) couldn't care less about 1/4mile times. They are not the be-all and end-all tool for judging car supremacy. I am a BMw-lover and I even like the old, slower models, because they are fun to drive. I used to own a vintage 2002 which probably wouldn't score high in your 1/4 mile runs but was a blast to drive. A similar 'numbers' debate occured on bmw newsgroups regarding WRX being faster than most bmws? So What? Being the fastest isn't always the best.

2) Depreciation has a lot to do with buying a car since it is one of the number one costs associated with ownership

3) Again - you seem to be implying that a car that costs $20k more is a superior car with "many advantages". Certainly on paper it may have more options and better "performance" as judged by statistical numbers. but I strongly disagree with the idea that this would make a better car. Since the function of a car is to transport you from point A to point B, All cars achieve this goal. A $2000 e30 can be just as much fun , if not more fun to drive than a brand new M3 if you are in the right mindset.

4) My statement about buying based on looks is not backed up by factual evidence but is certainly believable in many cases. How many times have you bought a car because you liked the over-all look of it? I know I have been drawn to certain brands and models for their looks. Hell I keep buying e36 coupes because the sedan (with almost identical performance) never tickled my fancy!

5) I am happy you have driven all those Bmws. Like you I am young (25) but have driven an extensive repertoire of automobiles including numerous BMWs. In the last few months I have taken a 2004 645ci for a long test-drive on the Autobahn, as well as driving a 2004 M3 Cabriolet, as well as a 97 M3, and a 93 325is, and a ..... so on and so on...

So having said all that, I must re-iterate that I would choose an e46 coupe any day over a 540 (provided I don't have any children) hehe

Over and Out,

Bmwstylz


1. You obviously don't understand what a half second in the quarter mile is, because you haven't raced, that's clear. I don't care if you haven't, but please understand it's drastically different. Ask anyone who is involved with any aspect of racing, and they will tell you the same thing...it's a NIGHT & DAY difference. I completely understand acceleration(quarter mile times) are only one aspect, but it's one of the biggest aspects, especially in this new generation of beasts. Acceleration is one of the biggest selling features on a car in this day and age, you cannot argue that. 2002's are incredible machines, I would never argue that. My brother had a tii back in the mid 80's, and it kick some serious ass. Virtually every car BMW produced before 95 gives me a hard on.

2. Depreciation - I've owned 5 cars in my life so far, and I've never once thought about depreciation of the vehicle. What's there to think about? Why would you not purchase a car because of the possibility it might depreciate faster than something else, when there's not a piece of evidence to say it will? Infact, out of all the people I know(buying new or used vehicles), depreciation isn't even a factor in the actual purchase. The problem with this is that nobody can decide, nor predict, when a car will hit a certain price level, so it shouldn't be a concern to anyone. It's out of everyone's hands, and there is no control of the selling market in the future...so I'm a little confused. Oh-well.

3. Are you trying to say that purchasing an 85k car, compared to a 65k car, will yield the same results when comparing apples to apples? C'mon man. More expensive cars are in general, better. I don't see why you're arguing that point, it's useless. A 760li is a better car than a 745i. Can you argue that point? All the facts are on paper. Bigger engine, bigger brakes, better this, better that etc....virtually everything is an upgrade of some sort. Just like the 330 and 540...almost everything on the 540 is in some form or another an upgrade. Even though they have different purposes, nobody buys a 330 because the 540 is worse do they?

4. Like I said...I agree, but it's subjective.

5. I've driven everything you've listed less the 645, and they're all stunning examples. I've driven(or been driven in) almost everything BMW has built, except the early 70's batmobile, the original 3.5L M1, and the newest of the new vehicles like the 4th gen M5, and the 2nd gen M6, and 645i.

The slickest BMW's I've been in have been the E28 B7, E30 M3 2.5L, 3.0CSL, E34 Euro M5, 2002 tii, E28 M5, E21 M6, and the E39 M5 for all-out brute strength.


It's all good dude.




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Old 11-03-2004, 08:10 PM   #75
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response to 2) - I'm not super concerned about depreciation but it is a reality when buying any car that you don't plan on keeping for a long amount of time (like ten years). I am pretty sure it is the biggest cost in owning a car. Accountant worldwide would agree with me too!

response to 3) Again I agree more expensive cars may on paper have better performance and options, but in reality it doesn't make them a better buy for everybody. Like If I my rich uncle was going to loan me a 330ci for a year or a 760i and pay full gas / costs. I would still pick the lower spec car because that just suits me better. I think you are suffering from a bad case of *Conspicuous Consumption* - read Thorsten Veblen's book "The Theory of the leisure class" for a full description.


I think we can agree to disagree

Thanks for the pleasant debate - this board rocks! (unlike some other ones where this type of discussion usually breaks down into "you're a fag" type name-calling)
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