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Old 01-14-2004, 06:57 AM   #16
MorningCruiser
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Oh, and another thing, slalom speed doesn't say how a car would handle on a race track, it's a measure of constant back and forth movement at maximum speed before rear end breakaway.

What we're discussing here is: base a comparison off of two laps (not one, because then it doesn't permit the ability to fully accelerate down the straightaway) on a road course, under as close as possible to the same conditions (including temperature and humidity).
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Old 01-14-2004, 07:08 AM   #17
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MorningCruiser, no offense but it sounds like you dont know a lot about cars and their classes.

Why would you compare M3 to the SL55? (Lowest BMW to the highest Benz).
Try C32 AMG to E46 M3.
And Z8 to SL55.
Mercedes isnt really know for their performance in regular car and even AMG. Mercedes only improved their acceleration on the last models by adding FI. But they still dont handle as good as BMW and do not stop better than BMW. Previous models couldn't even come close performance wise. And since when performance cars come only as Automatic?

Yes we do have more expensive cars that are more expensive than CSL, but what I meant is that there is not a lot of people that would pay 30k more for the BMW which has no radio or ac.
And CL65 will never come to NA.

I would also agree that Benz has a slightly higher interior quality, but not that much higher to be in the different category.
Also you cant really put whole brand in one category.
Like 320 is far away from 760Li and C230 isnt even close to the S600.
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Old 01-14-2004, 07:12 AM   #18
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and about the whole Cobra vs M3 thing.
c'mon we are comparing Supercharged V8 4.6l to a Natural Aspired 3.2l

DOnt you think BMW did pretty good?
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Old 01-14-2004, 07:24 AM   #19
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True I made a crude comparison, but I also made a comparison using "Sports flagships" from MB and BMW. True the Z8 would have been a better example to compare against an SL55.

And I know a lot about cars, and a lot about their classes. CL65 will come to north america (actually, I believe there are two in LA and four in detroit, not on the dealer's lot either), it's simply a matter of money.

I never said MBs could kick the crap out of BMWs, I said they're placed in a higher class due to their more luxurious interiors, and I do believe they are on a higher level in terms of "vehicle class" because of that. It's like asking why Lotus isn't in the same class as say Aston Martin, or why Mercedes isn't in the same class as Bentley.

I do however, highly agree that it is a poor idea to put all of a single company into a single class. However, I think overally Mercedes will always be placed in a higher class due to it's luxury and prestige by not only me, but the majority of the public.

Oh and as a joke, most old muscle cars came as automatics primarily, and I'm willing to bet they could kick the crap out of a similarly priced BMW In a straight line... of course.

And if your lack of knowledge about cars remark was in reference to my track/skidpad remarks, try it yourself.

Horsepower is a byproduct of torque and gearing, acceleration is also a byproduct of torque and gearing. Speed is a byproduct of horsepower. Cornering ability is a byproduct of steering design, vehicle weight and driver skill (simply put). If you can name a single race track where they have ten turns in rapid succession (back and forth) where the track is only one highway lane wide, I'll give you $10.

I also agree that the CSL is ridiculous (like I said, I think the E46 M3 is BMWs attempt at making a performance car out of a boat/pig/paperweight) in price for what you get. "Look it's an M3, with a lightweight roof, a useless trunk, and lighter wheels coupled with a cute trunklid made out of a saturn's doors!" Essentially...
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Old 01-14-2004, 07:27 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by SickFinga
and about the whole Cobra vs M3 thing.
c'mon we are comparing Supercharged V8 4.6l to a Natural Aspired 3.2l

DOnt you think BMW did pretty good?
Considering we're comparing an american muscle car to a german touring car, yes, they did very good. Like I said before, they're not in the same class, and acceleration from 0-60 doesn't mean much

I personally think the M5 to Cobra would be a better comparison, other than the fact that the M5 is a "luxury performance sedan" and the Cobra is a "high performance street/track coupe". At least the M5 is in the power range

Edit - PS - Sickfinga, every reply after my first had one real thing in mind: To stir things up and make people think instead of just being magazine benchmark racers.

Last edited by MorningCruiser; 01-14-2004 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 01-14-2004, 07:43 AM   #21
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Like i said Mercedes usually does have a bit higher quality interior, but not enough to place it in the different category.
BMW did a way better job in 3series than Benz in C class (previous models, never sat in the current class)
Also a lot of car magazines said that current 7 series has a higher quality interior than S class ( i posted a link before, do a search if you care)


Also old american cars werent really a performance car.
They were pure straight line cars with horrible handling. And like you said 0-60 means nothing. Performance cars got good acceleration, good handling, good breaking.

CL65 is not comming. Check Road and Track magazine and ask openwheel (Mercedes Benz Salesman) But i wish they were here, nothing like 605hp.

Wel you can compare M5 to Cobra, but then again. M5 is a full size car with big trunk and 4 doors and also naturaly aspired. But then again, price tag is different.
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Old 01-14-2004, 07:46 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by MorningCruiser

Edit - PS - Sickfinga, every reply after my first had one real thing in mind: To stir things up and make people think instead of just being magazine benchmark racers.
Well magazines our only way out really.

Not all of us can take M3 and Cobra for a test drive. Real test drive, with hard acceleration, track runs, braking and etc.
So reading magazines is pretty much the only way to find out about cars for us.
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Old 01-14-2004, 07:54 AM   #23
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Current class C series puts the 3s to shame I feel when it comes to the interior (personal opinion might be a factor).

I'd personally take an S-class over a 7 series any day, I've sat in a 745il and an S600, aswell as driven both, and quite frankly, the MB just takes the cake (mind you, I wasn't trying to drive the piss out of the cars, so maybe the 745 could still beat the MB).

I could have sworn I saw some photos of the CL65 in LA and Detroit hm, maybe I'm losing it?

Like I said about the M5, it's at least in the horsepower range. Other than that, it's got just as much in common with the Cobra as the M3 does. Nothing else. The M3 is in the same body style class, nothing more.

And like I said you could take a comparitely priced muscle car (old one), an automatic, and put it up against a bmw (in the same price range again), and race them in a straight line, and they'd certainly win. I made that remark only to prove that many performance cars (at the time the term performance meant it had a lot of power) came basically only as automatics, many of those cars hardly made it to canada as a standard.

Like I said, I'm just trying to stir things up cause this magazine benchmark racing is getting really annoying...

It's like saying that because a car can go faster according to paper, it can in real life with different drivers.

I will state one thing that if anyone disagrees with me, I will laugh at them. 75% of a race is driver skill, 25% is the car. There are of course some exceptions (the R34 Skyline with active control AWD comes to mind, since it makes most of us look like better drivers than we are), as there are to everything.

Edit - It's not being able to do magazine test drives, it's knowing people who own the cars who are willing to let you flog them.
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Old 01-14-2004, 08:04 AM   #24
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Id take S600 over 7 series cause nothing like a V12 Bi-Turbo.

Do you know people that own E46 m3 and Cobra and S600 and 760Li and M5 and SL55 that would let you borrow it for a nice good test drive?? Maybe you do, i know some people on here got access to better and faster cars, but not all of us that lucky.
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Old 01-14-2004, 04:23 PM   #25
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Everything but the 760Li so far. Everyone I know with that kind of money says that it's too ridiculous in cost and that the S600 is much more worth it.

Most of the people I know who will let me flog their cars are people that I've met at car shows, those that are in their late 30s up through their late 60s and early 70s. They have the money to buy the cars, they approve of me "testing" their cars, because they too like to see the limits of the vehicles even if they feel they're not capable of driving them that hard.
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Old 01-14-2004, 04:28 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
Everything but the 760Li so far. Everyone I know with that kind of money says that it's too ridiculous in cost and that the S600 is much more worth it.

too ridiculous in cost ????
isnt s600 is like extra 20g?
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Old 01-14-2004, 06:53 PM   #27
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The new looks and interiors of the 5,6, and 7 will eventually grow on you. I remember when the last generation Civic came out I thought I was the ugliest piece of shit out there. Then the Prelude came out, which was even uglier! But now, they are OK...and some look cool tuned up. Same with the new infinity's...there were prototype photos out for years before production, and I thought they looked ass. But by the time they finally produced them, they look OK now.

And about the M3 vs. Cobra thing. These are completely different categories of cars. The M3 is a Grand Tourer. The Cobra is a purpose built muscle car. The Cobra should be compared to the Corvette, Camaro, GTO etc...

Even through price might be very different, people buy BM's for different reasons than the people who by Cobras
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Old 01-14-2004, 09:18 PM   #28
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Well I must say, a lot of people have very strong viewpoints on where Bmw and the M3 stand in the car world...in relation to Mercedes and Ford.
These viewpoints are what being a car guy is all about.

All I know is that it's pretty hard to compare BMW and Ford.
The whole car from the front fender, to the ability to corner is a completely different machine. Neither of them handle quite like the other so itís almost like comparing apples to oranges. The mustang for example is a great straight line car, speaking from experience. BMW and the M3 have that German touch that gives them a good all-round feel. But the fact of the matter is that they are both great machines in a different sense.

If they did get the chance to go at it, it would be one hell of a show!
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Old 01-14-2004, 09:21 PM   #29
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This should sum up the whole Cabra vs M3 convo.

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Old 01-14-2004, 10:05 PM   #30
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Dude, it's an M3 with SLR sidegrilles on the hood :/ IMO that looks like a tank, not a performance car. Fuuuuuuuuuuuugly. The E46 from the coupe/sedan/convertible perspective is fine, but from the performance car perspective is ridiculous. It's like saying that a B-52 bomber can outhandle an F22... But this is of course, opinion.

And about the S600 being a better car they for the most part have issues with the fact that BMW doesn't care how the dealers treat the customer. I can speak from experience when I say that the BMWs treat most people like dirt, while the MB dealers will cater to you if you walk in wearing sweats and a holy tee. I'm a youngin, and if I walk into a BMW dealership, I'm basically told to take a hike, even if I show up in an M5 or S600. If I walk into the MB dealer, the salesmen aren't sharks in suits, they're pleasant, and very helpful. If I want to testdrive an ML500 they will let me, whereas I'd be giving the BMW dealership a Ferarri just to sit in an X5. Apparently this treatment matters to those who are loaded.

I'm a guy who shoots from the hip, makes me loved by some, hated by others. And by the way, once you've driven a Cobra, you won't be able to compare it to an M3 because it exceeds the M3's performance on all levels. Remember that I said performance and not luxury

Either way, I'd still rather have an E30 M3 over an E46 M3, least the E30 feels like a track car. It's like the Z4, I believe it was Top Gear that complained that it had "too rough a ride" and remarked that it is the "American sporty feel". I dunno about you, but how many race cars have you seen with 250lb coils/springs? Most are upward of 400lb coils, and ride like a tank.
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