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Old 04-22-2002, 08:16 PM   #31
got torque?
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A purpose built Mustang with 55K invested in it would get around Mosport under 1:30, guaranteed. I don't think we'll ever get to see that, however. There is too much negativity attached to the Stangs (drag-only car=negativity) and too many more prestigious options at that level of investment.
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Old 04-22-2002, 08:24 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by got torque?

Pat:
I hope some of your objectivity rubs off on some of these people.
And you're 100% right about the limitations of a solid axle. On a race track, however, a solid axle works OK because the surface is usually quite smooth. A solid axle runs into trouble when trying to put power down on an uneven surface.

700hp Trans-Am cars still run solid axles, so they CAN be made to be race-worthy, but as you pointed out, at what cost?

Yes, which is why the solid rear axle is choice for a drag strip car, but less so for a road car.

Here in Canada we're blessed with very smooth tracks, but several race tracks in the U.S. are not so smooth, which hampers the ability of the solid rear axle to handle transitions, and the ability to put full power down at the apex. Obviously, this affects corner exit speed, and overall laptimes.

Also, due to the lousy weight balance of the Mustang (Fox body again; I don't a whole lot about the current generation Mustang...), which is a dismal 67/33 front/rear, you can't run stiff enough springs in the rear to keep both rear wheels planted in hard corners. If you run too stiff a set of springs in the rear, the car gets unsettled over rough surfaces, and can easily kick sideways on you....it's always one trade-off for another.

Most of the Mustangs guys in the BMW Club (odd statement that one...) are running 1000 lb springs in the front to prevent nose dive on braking, and 280 lbs springs in the rear. The problem with the solid rear axle and soft springs is that you can *almost* lift wheels completely off the ground cornering, thus losing some cornering traction, and also your acceleration traction. Thank God for limited slip differentials....

Stiff roll cages and seam welded chassis can help to deflect some of this issue as well, since the front will remain fully planted with stiff enough springs, and if the chassis doesn't flex, the rear can stay planted as well.

However, a LOT of engineering work has to go into making the Mustang a truly fast car on the road course (though parts are bloody cheap, and commonly available....sigh....).

The BMW is a no-brainer in terms of being able to make it a kick-ass road car, though the cost of playing at that level is quite high.

The torque from the Ford V8 is very addictive though, and if I actually had enough money to do it, I'd be tempted to build a Mustang as a quick track car. Doubtful I'd be able to corner as quickly as I do now, but I bet I could build a kick-ass track car for under $20,000 CDN. Part of being able to corner at those speeds is the feedback the chassis gives you, and that's something that is *extremely hard* to buy in the aftermarket....it's just a 'feel' thing....

Naw....I still like taking corner 4 flat out, no braking, nothing....it's that "pit of your stomach" feeling cresting the hill at 4 knowing you're committed NOW, and every instinct in your body is telling you "what the f$$$ are you doing at this speed???!!!". It's something else to enter it at 160 K, and exit at 195K.

It's that "holy sh!t, I hope my brakes work!" at the bottom of 5 that gets you every time....

That, and having a couple of instructors giggling while going for a ride in my car.....


Pat


PS. I *think* I know who "Got Torque" is, but I'll leave that up to them to confirm....
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Old 04-22-2002, 08:32 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by got torque?
88 325e:

I can't make this any simpler:

You are a MORON if you stand by that statement. It also shows everyone that you know NOTHING about track driving.
What the hell is that? I did take offence to it and it just showed everyone who read it how much of a child you are. Words are just words and I would never act apon it in any manner. I just hope you realize that one day you might say something to the wrong person.

Obviously you can't take someones opinion and you have to have the last word. I understand that you have an opinion as well, but the way you said it lacked professionalism. As I stated earlier A) I'm no professional track driver. B) I lack experiance being only 25. C) I wish to learn even if it means that i'm wrong. So if picking on someone that is not as good or experianced as you makes you feel better than fine with me.

And this blanket statement crap has to go. I never said that it is impossible that a Mustang could NEVER beat an M3! It all comes down to two things that HAVE to be there.....MONEY and DRIVER. Hell if I were the richest man in the world and the best driver in the world I could make a Chevette the fastest thing in the world.

I will state my opinion again. Mustangs are good cars and they can be made to go fast. The E30 M3 is a really good car and it can be made to go even faster even with just four cylinders. Ask yourself this...What would a Mustang do with a four cylinder engine with proper balance? And...What would a M3 do with a V8 with proper balance?

If i'm still wrong I can accept valid points, but please do it in a grown up manner please! Lets not turn this great board into a big bitch fest. Sound good?
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Old 04-22-2002, 09:08 PM   #34
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On a side note with the weekend at Mosport, I didn't realize how great my closing speed was on some of the cars in front of me...

At least once (my fault), I was cresting the top of turn 2 (during which you're committed, and changes to the pattern are VERY dangerous), I came up on Anne's Mazda Miata. I saw her entering 2 as I was exiting turn 1, but I thought her car would have been farther through than that...

Coming through turn 2 at 160 K, and all of a sudden I'm closing in on her Miata like a missile. Ooops, and that damn decision time: brake hard, and kiss my ass goodbye, or rear-end another car on the track.

Thankfully, my car has tonnes more grip than even I suspected, and a generous application of brake, steering input and throttle, and the back end didn't even get squirrely on me.

I think I scared the crap out of her though....it's pretty bad when I lap the same car 5 or 6 times during a 1/2 hour session...

Every 3 - 3.5 laps, I would end up behind her car.

Oh well, traffic is fun to play in as well....I actually enjoyed starting last in the group, and dicing my way through the crowd, rather than starting out in front and having to lap everyone.

On another side note, if you ever want to buy an absolute missile on the race track, and not have to do anything to it, buy a Z06.

Very easy to drive, and very bloody fast. No challenge in it at all, as it makes even so-so drivers look good, but it's still a damn fast car.

With the right tires, I think I could easily get that car into the low 1:30s...

Pat

PS This is a great thread; I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

Hopefully Rob, you're learing something from all of this.

I expect to see you signed up for June Mosport, and I expect to see you at one or more of the Raven days prior to then. You'll be surprised at how much you learn, and how much better you'll be.
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Old 04-22-2002, 09:55 PM   #35
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88 325e

Nobody's picking on you. I'm telling you why what you said is wrong. Again, sorry if you don't like my style of delivery.

"this blanket statement crap" will go, as soon as you stop making them.

You stated that a "5 point slow" could never beat an M3 at the track. I told you that you're wrong, and I proved it. Everyone who was at the track this past weekend saw what I'm talking about. If you said that shit in front of me, I'd react the same way.
No hard feelings, and I'm sure I could learn something from you about BMW's.

Next time you're at Mosport, we should find you a ride in a DECH Mustang- you'd be very surprised. Much more of a sledgehammer approach vs. BMW's scalpel, but tons of fun (and that sound.....)

Pat, you're 100% right about the "feel" that cannot be bought and sold in the aftermarket. For example, Japanese carmakers have been trying to get their cars to "feel" European for decades, with zero forward progress in my opinion. They still feel like tin cans, and those that don't tend to weigh 4500LBS. Their cars have no "soul" to them.

PS - I will remain anonymous for the time being. I seem to have caused some rather emotional reactions here, so it's probably a good idea. Excellent thread!!!
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Old 04-22-2002, 11:02 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by ROB89M3
Got torque,

Glad you're here to help us understand.
The only thing I fail to realize is that how can a car that weighs alot,is not nimble,not aerodynamic,make it all up in power?

A good race car needs a bit if everything,agree? Heck,those fox body Mustangs don't even have effective rear wings...
Well, let's look at the physics of it.

Overall weight probably isn't significantly more than that of the M3; a couple hundred pounds perhaps; more than covered by the torque generated by the V8.

Balance is an issue, and the 67/33 weight distribution is a problem, as I mentioned in the comments earlier.

Nimble is a relative term; it's not bad in terms of being nimble; not as much so as the M3, but overall it's still pretty good.

Nimbleness doesn't always translate into speed either, it depends upon the track. A track like Mosport doesn't require extremely nimble cars, as there is really only ONE tight corner (5), and several very high speed corners (1, 2, 3, 4 and 8). Turn 6 and 7 are essentially highway corners, which leaves 9 and 10 as the medium to slow type corners. Out of the 10 corners at Mosport, the M3 has a significant advantage in only 3 of them.

The exit to 2 of those corners are the long straights, so the torque of the V8 can counter-act some cornering speed on those two.

So, in addition to nimbleness, there is flat-out cornering speed as well. Turns 1, 2, 3 and 4 are elevation change type corners, and can be very fast in an M3. The weight bias of the Mustang makes them a little slower (relatively...) than the M3, particularly on 2, where the nose will want to drag the car to the outside too early, and you run out of track. As well, it will tend to push through 3, and a little so through 4, forcing the car off the desired line.

However, slow-in, fast out is the general rule on a track, and it's much easier to be fast out with torque in the 200-300 ft-lb range.

Lots of torque (and proper gearing) also allows the driver to spend more time in one gear, and shifting can slow you down. The M3 gearbox needs to be rowed to keep the engine on the boil, so all that time you spend shifting, the Mustang spends accelerating.

Stock for stock, I'd take the M3 over the Mustang. Given R-compounds on each, I could probably lap the M3 much faster than the Mustang (by stock, I mean factory stock, springs, shocks, everything...).

Dollar for dollar, I can build a lot more Mustang for $20,000 than I could build M3....

Pat
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Old 04-22-2002, 11:03 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by got torque?
If you said that shit in front of me, I'd react the same way.
Ok first off i'm not going to hid behind a screen name so my name is Dave not '88 325e.

Second could you clean up the language (see above quote)? I know we are adults so lets start acting like one!

Third I will stand by my opinion just as you have yours. I will leave it as that and no hard feelings! Trust me on that! If you really know me I don't like to argue. Alrighty then? Cool!

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Old 04-23-2002, 01:15 PM   #38
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Bad Karma pretty much nailed it, although the understeering due to weight distribution he describes in turns 2 and 4 is not exactly accurate. In those corners, if you are within INCHES of the right line, you can get the front end to grip very well. Doing that consistently is another story.

This whole discussion has been about Mosport. It's commonly known as a "power track" for a reason. A heavier car can use it's corner exit speed to get down the straights more quickly than one with less torque available.

If you bring Cayuga or S'Ville into the picture, things swing in the M3's favor very quickly. A short, twisty track is where a well balanced, lighter and more nimble car will work the transitions better than a heavier car.

Driving a Stang at Mosport is a real "point and shoot" exercise: apex everything late, so you can get the car pointed straight ASAP in order to get the power down. If you see a Mustang early apexing at Mosport in a driving school environment, the driver has either made a mistake, or is VERY good at throttle steering and managing corner exit slip angles.

There is no perfect car- certain cars excel at certain circuits.

Hope I've shed some light on this stuff.
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Old 04-24-2002, 01:52 AM   #39
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I've got three guesses.....

1) John Dimoff
2) Jordan (red Mustang/318is)
3) Christian Sorensen

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Old 04-24-2002, 09:17 AM   #40
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Well...

3 out of the 4 "Mustang Dudes" (as Rob calls them) drive BMW's as daily drivers.

So any three of those people could have expressed the opinions here. Then again, many people could have.

Funny guesses- John Dimoff- that one made me laugh out loud. Even as a joke, I don't think he'd ever say anything good about a Mustang...the BMW gods would strike the Raven trailer with lightning !!!

Most fun I've had on a bulletin board in a while.
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Old 04-24-2002, 10:29 AM   #41
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Well, it's most definately not me, and I seriously doubt it's John (he's a little too tightly wound for that...).

Derek doesn't spend a lot of time on the internet, so we could rule out him as well.

Actually, there were *5* Mustang guys at the track this weekend, Mike, Keith, Brock, Jordan and some guy in B group I don't know....

I *think* I know who it is, but I'll leave it up to them to announce it. Let's just say I think he has the same job, at the same company, that Gerry had 20 years ago....


On a side note, I'm sure he can get Keith to spin me off a copy of the video tape(s) he took on the weekend; I'd really like to actually SEE how my car looked on the track.


Pat
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Old 04-24-2002, 10:38 AM   #42
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In the near future, you will receive a CD that contains your second last session from this past Saturday....the one where Gerry Low barged his way out of the pits and into the VERY hot laps that you guys were turning.

I'll let you know when I get my hands on it.
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Old 04-24-2002, 11:01 AM   #43
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Does anyone have any video of the lowly B group guys?
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Old 04-24-2002, 03:36 PM   #44
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Deleted.

Rob S. knows everything.
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Old 04-24-2002, 03:52 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by got torque?
There would never be in-car video of "B" or "C" students. "A" students are allowed to do it occasionally, with special permission from John Dimoff. He agrees to it, but very reluctantly.
I was more interested in track-side footage as I noticed there were a people taping and snapping stills.

In car footage does make people stupid... I remember an internet video in a Subie that rolled because the driver was too busy being a tour guide rather than a driver.
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