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Old 04-22-2002, 12:48 PM   #16
got torque?
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Tell us something that we don't already know.

A rear-engined Porsche isn't balanced either.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Hopefully you can listen to some of these good people here and fix your attitude before you return to the track. Good Luck.
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Old 04-22-2002, 01:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by empowerd



Tsk, Tsk, Tsk....

Rob, try not to rely on those turn-in/brake point/apex pylons. That's the worst you can do! There are no pylons in real driving situations and a lot of instructors frown upon the use of them due to students becoming too reliant on their placement. They usually take them away by Sunday afternoon. I guess it's a good idea for new students, just don't rely on them too much.

Pat....

Nicely said!
Another point about those pylons. They're placed there for the C and B students to watch those points, but when you're good enough Rob, we invite the *best of the best* in A to attend the Friday sessions as well.

On Fridays, there are NO pylons to mark turn-in points, braking points, exits etc on the track.

Use the pylons for now, but as your skills improve, you'll need to understand "the line", and the pylons will be something you'll forget are even there.

I barely notice the pylons even being there on Saturdays and Sundays, and usually only pay attention to them when one has been punted out of place, and unfortunately onto the track.

Another important factor occurs as you get better; you'll notice that things seem to slow down; coming around turn one, most B and C students didn't notice the rubber tie-down strap (with both metal hooks still in it) sitting off the line to their right.

Most A students are good enough to notice it, without having to directly look at it. This goes back to the vision that Derek was talking about, and the ability for really good drivers to have everything feel as if it was in slow motion for them.

The weekend is over now; relax and start to work on some of the things you learned at the track. You'll start braking in a straight line on the street; your turning will be smoother, you won't be jumping on the brakes or on the gas, but will learn to squeeze the throttle, and massage the brake pedal. It's not a conscious thing Rob; but attend enough schools, and it will become second nature.

The worst thing you can do, is take the speed factor from this past weekend, and decide you're the fastest, safest driver on the highways and streets. Most A students and instructors have forgotten more about high performance driving than you've learned so far; keep the speed at the track, but apply your car control skills to the street.

Pat
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Old 04-22-2002, 04:33 PM   #18
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Re: mustangs vs. M3's

Quote:
Originally posted by got torque?
Rob

You may find that your car will outperform a Mustang on an autocross course, but on the track I can promise you that you will have your ass handed to you every time. I don't care how much money you throw at your car.

You have 2.5 litres, a Mustang has 5.0 litres. Mosport has a straightaway that is a mile long- you do the math.
Ha! Ha! Ha! A 5.0L Mustang could never beat a modified E30 M3! If you put that M3 and the 5.0L in the hands of a highly skilled driver the M3 will take it hands down. Sorry guy! Mustangs are great at a dragstrip not at a road course! And yeah I have heard that old saying: "Anything can be made to handle." Lets just be realistic. The 5 point slow needs to be extemely modified to keep up with a modified M3!
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Old 04-22-2002, 04:36 PM   #19
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Re: Re: mustangs vs. M3's

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Originally posted by '88 325e


Ha! Ha! Ha! A 5.0L Mustang could never beat a modified E30 M3! If you put that M3 and the 5.0L in the hands of a highly skilled driver the M3 will take it hands down. Sorry guy! Mustangs are great at a dragstrip not at a road course! And yeah I have heard that old saying: "Anything can be made to handle." Lets just be realistic. The 5 point slow needs to be extemely modified to keep up with a modified M3!

..... You obviously never met Derek!

Ignorance is BLISS!
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Old 04-22-2002, 04:45 PM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: mustangs vs. M3's

Quote:
Originally posted by empowerd



..... You obviously never met Derek!

Ignorance is BLISS!
Randy,

I would love to see a race with an equally set up M3 and 5.0L with the same driver. If Derek had the time to set up and learn the M3 will it go faster than the 5.0L? I think so. I know there are fast Mustangs out there that will hand me my ass even if I mod my car, because I know that I don't have ANY track time!
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Old 04-22-2002, 04:50 PM   #21
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No offense Dave, but I hate blanket statements like that one, from both sides.

As a guy who has spent a fair amount of his waking hours at the track, it's sure something to see various cars which *supposedly* don't handle well, do exactly that.

Take three of the Mustangs that were at Mosport this weekend. Keith's car is *relatively stock*, in terms of power anyway. He has a half cage, and some suspension work, but power-wise, his car is stock (much like mine is). Yes, on a clean lap, I could leave his car in the dust, but it certainly wasn't easy.

And Mike's car handles extremely well, and had the added benefit of significantly more HP than Keith's. A couple of times I'd leave two cars in front of him, and finish the session two cars behind him (and no, nobody passed me during the session). In order to catch Mike, I'd need a LOT of clean laps, a flawless drive on my part, and a little more than 1/2 hour to do it. If I didn't get one of those, it could easily be the other way around.

I'm as biased towards BMW's as anybody, but I'll certainly say that those Mustangs, in spite of a lousy, solid axle rear-end, can certainly handle well when properly setup. Bang for the buck, I'd have to give the nod to the Mustang.

And this is from a guy who had a couple of instructors *begging* to go for a ride with me, rather than the other way around.

It's interesting when they both giggle like school girls going around Corner 2 at near 180 km/h, and staying flat-out through turns 3 and 4 (my exit speed at 4 is roughly equivalent to my back-straight speed; 195 km/h).

Jordan called my car "the best handling car he's EVER been in", and to be honest, I don't think I could match lap times with his Mustang; we'll try it sometime, but I'm willing to bet his Mustang is quicker than my car. Between us, the drivers are *relatively* equal...

That being said, I still wouldn't sell my BMW for a Mustang....


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Old 04-22-2002, 04:52 PM   #22
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88 325e:

I can't make this any simpler:

You are a MORON if you stand by that statement. It also shows everyone that you know NOTHING about track driving.

Ask Randy if he can get past a Mustang at Mosport- he is honest and will tell you he usually can't. Pat will tell you that they gave him some solid competition all weekend long.

Were you at Mosport this weekend? If so, were you paying attention to what was happening on the track? It sounds like you weren't.

Let me recap because you're obviously living on another planet here: VERY SLIGHTLY modified Fords (springs/shocks/tires/brake pads) were absolutely crushing E30, E36, and E46 M3's. Got it?

Try this, smart guy: call Derek Hanson and tell him that he wasted nearly 20 years at DECH. You must know something he doesn't. I can promise you, he has forgotten more about what makes a car quick that you will EVER know.

The reality is that many people are too ignorant, conceited, or just plain dumb to admit that a car worth 15 grand will make mincemeat out of cars that cost 4 times as much. IT IS A FACT.

Nobody is claiming that a Mustang is the be-all and end-all in sports cars. It has its shortcomings. The fact remains that there is no greater performance value out there on a purely horsepower per dollar basis.

You asked for it, you got it.

Any questions?
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Old 04-22-2002, 04:55 PM   #23
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Re: Re: mustangs vs. M3's

Quote:
Originally posted by '88 325e


Ha! Ha! Ha! A 5.0L Mustang could never beat a modified E30 M3! If you put that M3 and the 5.0L in the hands of a highly skilled driver the M3 will take it hands down. Sorry guy! Mustangs are great at a dragstrip not at a road course! And yeah I have heard that old saying: "Anything can be made to handle." Lets just be realistic. The 5 point slow needs to be extemely modified to keep up with a modified M3!
While we're being realistic, the Mustang has torque and hp on the e30 M3 and whole shit load of it. Mustangs can be made to handle as well as M3s. Dollar for dollar I think the Mustang is a much faster track car than the M3, even though it may not be as elegant, it is bloody fast.

The cars are very different and as such have to be driven very differently.

Anyone ever hear of a Herb Adams suspension for the late 70s early eighties Camaros and Trans Ams? Those cars could pull 1g back in those days with the technology of the times. Something to think about.
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Old 04-22-2002, 05:01 PM   #24
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Thanks for the dose of reality, Kevin.

Dave really stepped into a pile with such a dumbass statement.

I will be the first to admit- a Mustang is heavy, ugly and uses a pretty weakass suspension. BUT IT WORKS. And it works even better with not much investment.

Plus, it's fun to root for the underdog.....
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Old 04-22-2002, 05:04 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by got torque?
88 325e:

I can't make this any simpler:

You are a MORON if you stand by that statement. It also shows everyone that you know NOTHING about track driving.

Ask Randy if he can get past a Mustang at Mosport- he is honest and will tell you he usually can't. Pat will tell you that they gave him some solid competition all weekend long.

Were you at Mosport this weekend? If so, were you paying attention to what was happening on the track? It sounds like you weren't.

Let me recap because you're obviously living on another planet here: VERY SLIGHTLY modified Fords (springs/shocks/tires/brake pads) were absolutely crushing E30, E36, and E46 M3's. Got it?

Try this, smart guy: call Derek Hanson and tell him that he wasted nearly 20 years at DECH. You must know something he doesn't. I can promise you, he has forgotten more about what makes a car quick that you will EVER know.

The reality is that many people are too ignorant, conceited, or just plain dumb to admit that a car worth 15 grand will make mincemeat out of cars that cost 4 times as much. IT IS A FACT.

Nobody is claiming that a Mustang is the be-all and end-all in sports cars. It has its shortcomings. The fact remains that there is no greater performance value out there on a purely horsepower per dollar basis.

You asked for it, you got it.

Any questions?
Moron? Smart guy? Ignorant? Conceited? Just plain dumb? Well you are never going to get your point across if you call people that.

Also I never said Derek whom I have never met wasn't any of those things! OK! Lets get that straight! I have heard that he is a great driver and I have never second guessed it. I would never say those things to someone unless it was to their face so lets just drop the silly names and be the better man. Cool?

I have admited that I have NO track time so there are things that I would like to learn. So i'm not stubborn or a sore loser so I can admit when i'm wrong.
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Old 04-22-2002, 05:10 PM   #26
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Re: Re: Re: mustangs vs. M3's

Quote:
Originally posted by M3ntal Kev
[b]

While we're being realistic, the Mustang has torque and hp on the e30 M3 and whole shit load of it. Mustangs can be made to handle as well as M3s. Dollar for dollar I think the Mustang is a much faster track car than the M3, even though it may not be as elegant, it is bloody fast.
I'll disagree on the point that the Mustangs can be made to handle as well as the BMWs. The Mustangs can be made to handle *well*, but I will suggest that no Mustang there can corner like John's car, Bob's car or mine. The solid rear axle gets in the way, as you can't have an independent suspension in the rear. (Fox body anyway). Small caveat; yes, more money solves everything, but my point being that short of changing the ENTIRE rear suspension / axle / drivetrain....

However, cornering speed is but ONE factor in overall laptimes. The Mustangs are able to have excellent cornering speed, and massive torque to pull out of corners. And I won't even mention the damn straightline speed I had to contend with.... They might not handle AS WELL, but overall laptimes are the only qualifier that really matters.

In the A group, there were a LOT of cars well into the 1:4x's; exact numbers, I don't know. I'd suggest all three of the Mustangs in that group were running in the 1:4x's (Brock's, Keith's and Mike's). I don't have any official laptimes, but I know times that some other cars were running, so my comparison is vaguely based on this.

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Old 04-22-2002, 06:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by got torque?
Tell us something that we don't already know.

A rear-engined Porsche isn't balanced either.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Hopefully you can listen to some of these good people here and fix your attitude before you return to the track. Good Luck.
got torque,

As a member of the BMWCC and a spectator this past weekend, I was just wondering what car you drive? Are you the Bruno that Pat talks about? What's your experience with tracktime since you seem quite knowledgable on the subject?
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Old 04-22-2002, 07:04 PM   #28
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Rob S:
What you posted makes no sense. DTM racing is Touring Car racing. Do you know what a Touring Car is? It's a sedan, otherwise known as a four-door automobile (or saloon if you like).
I don't recall ever seeing a 4-door Mustang. Besides, the results of one race series don't end any argument.

This was never about me saying that "M3's suck" in fact, the M3 is my all-time favorite car, I just haven't been fortunate enough to own one (yet).

88 325e:
I never called you a dumbass, I said you made a dumbass statement. I get pretty pissed when people make blanket statements without any first hand experience, which you've admitted you lack.

Sorry if you don't like my delivery, but my points come across loud and clear. I know what I'm talking about. I am not out to offend you, but you hit a sore point.

Straight Six:
I'm active in the BMW Club as well. In fact, I don't think I've ever missed a Trillium Chapter driving school in the last 5 years. I have first-hand experience with BMW's and Mustangs, so I am qualified to comment.

Not that it matters who I am- I'm stating arguments backed by facts, not speculation or generalization.

Pat:
I hope some of your objectivity rubs off on some of these people.
And you're 100% right about the limitations of a solid axle. On a race track, however, a solid axle works OK because the surface is usually quite smooth. A solid axle runs into trouble when trying to put power down on an uneven surface.

700hp Trans-Am cars still run solid axles, so they CAN be made to be race-worthy, but as you pointed out, at what cost?

Everyone:
This is a great discussion. Please don't take any of it personally. For the record, I would make any of the same points to any of you in person- it's just opinion, after all.
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Old 04-22-2002, 07:05 PM   #29
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Re: Re: Re: Re: mustangs vs. M3's

Quote:
Originally posted by Bad-Karma
I'll disagree on the point that the Mustangs can be made to handle as well as the BMWs. The Mustangs can be made to handle *well*, but I will suggest that no Mustang there can corner like John's car, Bob's car or mine. The solid rear axle gets in the way, as you can't have an independent suspension in the rear. (Fox body anyway). Small caveat; yes, more money solves everything, but my point being that short of changing the ENTIRE rear suspension / axle / drivetrain....
You're totally correct, Pat, but the key factor is money without a doubt. In 88 the M3 was about $55k CDN which was due to design and engineering costs. The Mustang was nowhere near that cost in 88 or even today (except may be the Cobra-R). It would be interesting to see what a $55k purpose (lapping) built Mustang could muster up... or may be I've already seen it and not recognized it.
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Old 04-22-2002, 07:07 PM   #30
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Re: Re: Mustangs VS. E30 M3..

Quote:
Originally posted by ROB89M3
okay,to end this topic ,all I have to say is this...

Btw: Mustangs were in fact in the DTM Racing series in the late '80's early '90's. I don't think they even came close to matching the Bimmers and Mercs...period.

Remeber,a car can go as fast as the $$$ and driver will take it.
Shows how little you know about car racing....

One thing to consider Rob, and you're failing to look at this. Several Mustangs and Camaros which ran in the DTM were forced to run with weight restrictions and intake restrictions (much like the BMW M3 GTR is for ALMS) to counter-act the torque / HP advantage they had. DTM was seriously biased (as all race series are unfortunately biased to one manufacturer or another) towards German cars.

Unfortunately, racing is not the pure, athletic sport we wish it was, but rather faces a lot of political battles (Euro vs domestic, Porsche vs BMW etc), and generally the winner is the one who spends the most money. The German DTM teams generally had BMW factory support; the Mustangs in DTM were privateers, and did not have the massive factory support of Ford behind them.

The counter comparison to this would be the SCCA racing of the 80's. On Ford and GM's home turf, Mustangs and Camaros of the day readily took home the crown in road racing. This included racing that took place at Mosport.

Those Mustangs were turning laptimes back in the 80's of 1:20 seconds or less. (Average speed of 100 MPH for the course). The BMW M3 GTR turned a best time of 1:18 at the ALMS last year...nearly 20 years later, with a host of technological improvements over that time (tires, compounds, suspension design et al).

My *best* time at Mosport *might* be in the high 1:30s....and most BMW Club racers running in the Modified class (Euro motors, AP Racing brakes etc) are running in the 1:30 - 1:32 range. (Average speed around 90 MPH for the course).

Generally, North American perception of the Mustang is on the dragstrip, and not the road course. In spite of Ford's best efforts to change that image, it still sticks.

Personally, I'd like to see how well the new Cobra R would handle on Mosport compared to the new E46 M3.

Anybody care to loan me a couple of cars and some track time at Mosport?

Pat
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