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Old 08-02-2013, 04:02 PM   #31
newbe46
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Whether you like it or not, cops are just dangerous. Period.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:02 PM   #32
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I'm surprised by how many people think this person deserved what he got... This is Canada, not some country where police act as judge, jury and executioner... There are guidelines on the use of force and the measure of force for a reason. This individual was committing a crime I agree, however our police are trained and equipped to de-escalate situations like this. Their firearm should almost never be used. Their are other tactics that can be use to de-escalate situations eg. negotiators, tasers, teargas etc. The suspect was contained. Apparently constables are not authorized to carry a taser.. Ontario is one of the few provinces that have this policy.. This is a failure in policing in general, not just the officer in question

For those who think that if you hold a knife you deserve to be shot, thank god you are not the ones making the laws in this country.

Let's think about this a bit .. Would he have deserved it if he was holding a stick.. What if he lunged at the officer with no weapon... If an officer viewed someone driving irradically and may be drunk, let's say he is not stopping for the officer, should they just set up a road block with armed officers armed to shoot a volley of bullets rather than the pit maneuver or spike strips?

Armed bank robbers get more of a chance than this guy, I guess that what really bothers me about this.. Inconsistent policing

The fact of the matter is that we have to hold law enforcement to a higher standard and they need to understand that is part of profession they chose
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:18 PM   #33
damameke
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Originally Posted by Blades View Post
I wonder why they aren't showing the public the bus camera from inside. I think he turned around when he was shot
This is new, did you see that video? If that is true, cop shot him in the back...
so how can this be justified ? What would be the conclusion by SIU?
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:23 PM   #34
calegrant
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Originally Posted by starbuck View Post
I'm surprised by how many people think this person deserved what he got... This is Canada, not some country where police act as judge, jury and executioner... There are guidelines on the use of force and the measure of force for a reason. This individual was committing a crime I agree, however our police are trained and equipped to de-escalate situations like this. Their firearm should almost never be used. Their are other tactics that can be use to de-escalate situations eg. negotiators, tasers, teargas etc. The suspect was contained. Apparently constables are not authorized to carry a taser.. Ontario is one of the few provinces that have this policy.. This is a failure in policing in general, not just the officer in question

For those who think that if you hold a knife you deserve to be shot, thank god you are not the ones making the laws in this country.

Let's think about this a bit .. Would he have deserved it if he was holding a stick.. What if he lunged at the officer with no weapon... If an officer viewed someone driving irradically and may be drunk, let's say he is not stopping for the officer, should they just set up a road block with armed officers armed to shoot a volley of bullets rather than the pit maneuver or spike strips?

Armed bank robbers get more of a chance than this guy, I guess that what really bothers me about this.. Inconsistent policing

The fact of the matter is that we have to hold law enforcement to a higher standard and they need to understand that is part of profession they chose
He was not just an individual holding a knife innocently, he was holding a knife in a standoff with police refusing to drop it and advanced towards them. Trying to play it off as though no guilt rests upon his incredibly stupid actions, I have to say it's great that you as well are not the one making laws.
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Old 08-02-2013, 06:40 PM   #35
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The keyword is standoff and that meant no one was in danger and that video clearly showed that... and time to talk and calm him down that was not the case on that Sat night ...granted he had a knife and was taunting the cops.. and from that video I didn't see any advancement towards the cop even if he did,, he still has to clear the 3 steps and cops still have time to disarm him.. a billy club or any other instrument but cops were too quick in discharging 9 shots....
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:07 PM   #36
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he still has to clear the 3 steps and cops still have time to disarm him.. a billy club or any other instrument but cops were too quick in discharging 9 shots....


So let me get this right, if you were a cop and a criminal advanced toward you with a knife, you would wait for 3 steps (be sure to count them exactly wouldn't want to mis count) then pull a billy club and try to disarm him?

You are the sweetest police officer on the planet willing to die yourself so as not hurt the crazy knife guy who is coming at you.

Do you actually believe that crap?
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Old 08-02-2013, 08:19 PM   #37
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I'd definitely give someone threatening violence against a cop while brandishing a knife the benefit of the doubt and allow him to get close enough to hit him
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:07 PM   #38
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He was not just an individual holding a knife innocently, he was holding a knife in a standoff with police refusing to drop it and advanced towards them. Trying to play it off as though no guilt rests upon his incredibly stupid actions, I have to say it's great that you as well are not the one making laws.
I never said he was not at fault or guilty.. I simply pointed out that the measure of force was not appropriate for someone contained in an empty streetcar.. This type of thing needs to be scrutinized or the police have the leeway to keep pushing the envelope on what is reasonable force... Again the firearm is the last resort amongst an arsenal of non lethal tools..
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:24 PM   #39
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So let me get this right, if you were a cop and a criminal advanced toward you with a knife, you would wait for 3 steps (be sure to count them exactly wouldn't want to mis count) then pull a billy club and try to disarm him?

You are the sweetest police officer on the planet willing to die yourself so as not hurt the crazy knife guy who is coming at you.

Do you actually believe that crap?
based on that video and for this incident, Sammy was contained , no one was in danger and he was shot 9 times..

you are using other examples that don't come into play here..
nobody deserves to die, not cop and criminals.. if the cops on that night is willing to be more patient we wouldn't be discussing this bad shoot

I don't believe in other craps but I believed the cop reacted too hastily in this instance.
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:31 PM   #40
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I never said he was not at fault or guilty.. I simply pointed out that the measure of force was not appropriate for someone contained in an empty streetcar.. This type of thing needs to be scrutinized or the police have the leeway to keep pushing the envelope on what is reasonable force... Again the firearm is the last resort amongst an arsenal of non lethal tools..
His fault was holding a knife and threatening the passengers but he let everyone off the bus, another video showed that.; he was alone in that bus (contained) before the cops arrived and 3 minutes( witness stated less than this time frame) later, he was shot dead.. 3 shots times.. pause then 6 more shots.. finally tasered.. Justified kill, excessive force ?? .

SIU finding will be interesting.. wil SIU charge the cop?
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:17 PM   #41
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At this point we need to know one key fact, did he advance on the cop or not, once we know this it will speak to the cops guilt or justification.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:37 PM   #42
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Actually if you knew anything about police training... he was an immediate threat. If a threatening individual is holding a knife within 21 feet of an officer or innocent bystander, he is considered an imminent threat, because a person can do serious harm to someone inside that distance within 2.5 seconds. It is quite clear on the video that the officer stated "If you take one step towards me ...(unclear)... you die." The suspect then quite clearly in the video made that move. (He went from clearly visible in the window to obstructed by the body towards the stairs.) The officer then fired three shots. The other shots after the pause are cause for concern, and need to be investigated, but from what I saw in the video, the first three shots were not unjustified.

Imagine you're the officer, have a guy holding a knife screaming profanities and insults at you, and refuses to drop the knife after being ordered to numerous times. He is within the 21 ft radius, and you know from your training he can be on you or a fellow officer in less than 3 seconds. Then he begins to make that move... you have to make a decision NOW. Are you willing to take the chance that he's not going to bury that knife in your neck? It's easy to sit behind your computer and judge when you have plenty of time to think and formulate what you think should have been done, it's an entirely different matter when all you have are those 3 seconds.
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:06 PM   #43
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If he advanced, he deserved to get shot. But what makes me mad is the next 6 shots while he was on the ground execution style......then tasered.
There has to be some disciplinary action for that.
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Old 08-02-2013, 11:13 PM   #44
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based on that video and for this incident, Sammy was contained , no one was in danger and he was shot 9 times..

you are using other examples that don't come into play here..
nobody deserves to die, not cop and criminals.. if the cops on that night is willing to be more patient we wouldn't be discussing this bad shoot
No one is in danger when you have a mentally unstable individual refusing to comply with police and wielding a knife? Riiiight...

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I never said he was not at fault or guilty.. I simply pointed out that the measure of force was not appropriate for someone contained in an empty streetcar.. This type of thing needs to be scrutinized or the police have the leeway to keep pushing the envelope on what is reasonable force... Again the firearm is the last resort amongst an arsenal of non lethal tools..
He advanced forward in the video, seconds after being told the repercussions he'll face if doing so and immediately before he got shot.

It IS being scrutinized, I'll agree to that. The following 6 shots have me puzzled.

As for being a last resort, no. You scale the force necessary to the threat you're met with. A lunatic with a knife deserves the highest level of force given that he can easily do some serious damage with it, he chose to wave his own safety by threatening others with it.
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Old 08-03-2013, 04:42 AM   #45
starbuck
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In the video he took a few steps back before he took a few steps forward.. He essentially returned to his origin standing point before being shot.

The lunatic waving the knife was still on the bus surrounded by law enforcement. If there was a concern that he was still too close even while on the street car , the police can increase the size of their perimeter surrounding him... 23 officers were there. No negotiation, no de-escalation. shot and dropped, then 6 more to make sure ? If anything the extra 6 after the suspect dropped really makes me wonder

It will be interesting to see what the investigation reveals regarding which shot was the one that did him in, or if it was the taser after

Let me ask this, if the 3 officers directly in the line of sight of the streetcar door had tasers, would you be opposed to them having used the tasers?
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