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Old 04-29-2012, 11:31 PM   #16
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I think its great regardless of how cheap their cost is compared to the rest of the country.


showing where the true balls lay in this country
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Old 04-29-2012, 11:34 PM   #17
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Wow. I guess some people just don’t understand the way the system works.

Perhaps a few of you are basing your opinions on the way things happen here in Ontario, where people bitch and complain, but then sit on their asses when it comes time to take any action.

Quebec enjoys some of the lowest tuition rates in Canada for a reason, and it’s not because the government just happens to be overly generous in that province, or because someone just hasn’t gotten around to raising the rates. It’s because they are actually politically active.

I don’t exactly agree with the rioting, but aside from that, Ontario should be taking notes. Maybe here in Ontario there are a bunch a bandwagoners. The Ontario government tells its students "we will give you one single day out of the year to protest" and like a bunch of fools we march when they tell us it’s ok to march. That’s worked out well for us hasn't it? To top it off, half the students just use it as an excuse to skip class, and don’t even attend because they arent paying anyway.

It takes balls to do what they are doing in Quebec, especially when you’re in your final year and you could just say **** it, because I’m not going to be paying tuition next year anyway, so why should I care. Nothing gets done otherwise.

BOOM , headshot!

spot on. People in ontario seem two follow to lines of thought. If it doesnt effect me, who gives a shit and 2. if its worse than I already have it then they should just stfu and bend over.

Just because ontario is full of spineless assclowns who sing ohhh canada while taking it up the ass doesnt mean the rest of the country has to do it.
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Old 04-30-2012, 12:19 PM   #18
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There are hardly any jobs, or any good paying jobs any more. They've opened the gates on immigration like crazy. You need to have 3 degrees and a masters to make $50,000 a year.
Not entirely true. This really depends on the degree you have. Right now in Ontario if you have an engineering degree you wonít have much trouble finding a job with a starting salary between $40k-50k. If you just have some generic arts or communications degree, yeah youíre probably going to have a harder time because there are boat loads of people who have those degrees, and with the exception of their degree most of those people have zero experience and zero qualifications. I donít find it surprising that there is a shortage of jobs for most of these people.

With regards to this Quebec situation, yes kudos to them for making a stand for something they believe in, however I think that most of these people are out to lunch. Students want the government to pay for their tuition, parents want the government to offer dirt cheap daycare available to anyone so they can go to work, everyone wants to retire at 55 with a full pension, the list goes on. With an aging population thatís living longer (and retiring earlier), and more and more people taking post-secondary education because of its affordability, you end up with more people taking from the system than are giving to it. The result is obvious, and when you combine that with government misspending and corruption the effect is compounded drastically.

Yes, we need some government reform, but at the same time the people in Quebec need to get real. How does that saying go?... ďThe only free lunches are found in the mouse trapsĒ
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:32 PM   #19
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...at the same time the people in Quebec need to get real. ...
The same could be said for Canadian government. That money we pay to them in taxes is our money. It should ultimately go back into something that benefits the people. Lately the government operates more like the mob, where your donations are expected without question in return for "protection".


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Not entirely true. This really depends on the degree you have. Right now in Ontario if you have an engineering degree you wonít have much trouble finding a job with a starting salary between $40k-50k. If you just have some generic arts or communications degree, yeah youíre probably going to have a harder time because there are boat loads of people who have those degrees, and with the exception of their degree most of those people have zero experience and zero qualifications. I donít find it surprising that there is a shortage of jobs for most of these people.
Your right. But why are so many students pressured from high school to enter into a university program when a degree has become so worthless and watered down? Collage is often a much better option for most, and can get them into the working world much sooner, yet its practically frowned upon when students are trying to make their decisions. Hell, many university graduates end up going back to collage after their degree anyway. Even with a masters or professional post-graduate program behind you, in many cases you can barely hope to achieve a yearly pay equal to a basic degree 10-15 years ago. We should be asking is it really necessary for us to drag students through 4 years of almost inapplicable gen ed before they can learn real skills? or can we do a better job of that in their first two/three years, and then allow them to specialize in their 3rd or 4th. The degree itself should count for something. Yet now, like you said, people still view students as having no experience after 4 years of study. On top of that, over 60% of students donít even end up using their degrees, or working in a related field because there just arenít jobs for them when they finish. Why arenít more degrees structured to produce useful skills? Why is everything multiple choice? Why is there a division between collage and university at all? I could go on for hours...


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... however I think that most of these people are out to lunch. Students want the government to pay for their tuition, parents want the government to offer dirt cheap daycare available to anyone so they can go to work, everyone wants to retire at 55 with a full pension, the list goes on. With an aging population thatís living longer (and retiring earlier), and more and more people taking post-secondary education because of its affordability, you end up with more people taking from the system than are giving to it.
Not sure if this was just in regards to the hypothetical situation with all those things you mentioned, but currently overall people actually arenít retiring until well after 65, and in some cases not at all, and they are working longer hours on average for less money, and paying more then they ever have for school.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:28 PM   #20
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Not entirely true. This really depends on the degree you have. Right now in Ontario if you have an engineering degree you won’t have much trouble finding a job with a starting salary between $40k-50k.

Not true either. University is required for, but by no means guarantees, a non-trades job - and tuition is rising disproportionate to wages and the cost of living. Companies have switched recruitment to the internet, but that means hundreds to thousands of applications for a single position and no efficient way to pick the best candidate; hence hiring is done by connections or luck. Society brushes off the unemployed as 'not willing to go where the work is' but doesn't actually state what industry is tripping over itself for labour. Trades? I have friends in construction whose business is tapering off hardcore. We need more doctors? Medical seats are restricted in Canada and are already bursting with applicants. Why are kids these days too lazy to go into STEM areas? Ontario mathematics graduates have have the 3rd highest unemployment 2 years after graduation out of 26 surveyed majors. If a field is reported as 'hot' with a 'huge shortage looming' then enrollment soars and by the time your schooling is done you're stuck in a glutted field yet again (see pharmacy).



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If you just have some generic arts or communications degree, yeah you’re probably going to have a harder time because there are boat loads of people who have those degrees, and with the exception of their degree most of those people have zero experience and zero qualifications. I don’t find it surprising that there is a shortage of jobs for most of these people.

Also not true. A generic arts or communications degree also has use, there are art directors, communications directors at every company out there. In theory the skills are needed in certain occupations. So in theory everyone should succeed on some level, which isn't happening now. But success isn't guaranteed by intelligence and hard work alone. And with the state of the economy, intelligence and hard work can't guarantee that you can have steady employment, buy a house, get married and have some kids. That is what I think is missed in the debates; the smart kids aren't pissed they're not getting $100k jobs on Bay Street out of school, they're pissed they can graduate in the top 10% of a STEM program and still not afford to move out of their parent's house and start a life.


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With an aging population that’s living longer (and retiring earlier), and more and more people taking post-secondary education because of its affordability,

So wrong. Older workers are just not retiring. GenX and Y, the children of boomers are already in their 30 and 20s and still trying to grab these "jobs" from the clutches of boomers. The Ontario Medical Association figures that over the next four years, the freeze will mean a total pay cut of 16 per cent, meaning retiring doctors and new doctors will share the existing meager pension pool. At my old architecture firm I had a few senior level coworkers who were 78 years old. Older doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc – aren’t retiring. Their retirement savings have been hammered. They can’t afford to.

Thousands of engineers have lost their jobs and countless new grads didn't even get their first jobs, because of the glut in Canada's telecom/IT sector. Is that to say that they're all applying for positions at the wrong skill level? Of course not. That's just saying that there's a glut.

And employers can take their pick of workers nowdays. They don't like hiring people with skill/age mismatches. Done. They want their entry-level workers to be young experienced and educated. Done. A senior manager? A entry-level out of school? Good luck. My friends architecture firm fired all their vice presidents and senior managers and hired 10-20 masters architecture graduates in their mid/late 20s. Now they pay them 35k a year while giving them more and more senior roles. It's quite paramount across the board actually.
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Old 04-30-2012, 03:37 PM   #21
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Collage is often a much better option for most, and can get them into the working world much sooner, yet its practically frowned upon when students are trying to make their decisions. Hell, many university graduates end up going back to collage after their degree anyway. Even with a masters or professional post-graduate program behind you, in many cases you can barely hope to achieve a yearly pay equal to a basic degree 10-15 years ago. We should be asking is it really necessary for us to drag students through 4 years of almost inapplicable gen ed before they can learn real skills? or can we do a better job of that in their first two/three years, and then allow them to specialize in their 3rd or 4th. The degree itself should count for something.
Collage eh?

The practical skills can always be taught, but it's the problem solving skills the university graduate has is more valuable. I am not saying college graduates can't problem solve or think. The university graduate generally is able to keep going to higher learning such as research, not possible for a college graduate unless he does a bachelor. That's why in the field of engineering, colleges are not accredited to join the Engineering associations. There is a reason why most people go into university than college. I have never seen a A+ high school graduate doing advanced courses choose college over university. There is a reason for this.

There is a large number of applicants during a recession. The company has decided that they will pay 30k a year for a technical position. Given that the job can be done both a college and university graduate.

During recessions, the university graduate will take whatever they can get, meaning even if it's a underpaid/underemployed position. That's how it is and will be for some forseeable future.
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Old 04-30-2012, 07:24 PM   #22
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Not really sure about engineering jobs in Ontario. My sister finished engineering, and while she didn't finish top of her class, she finished at U of T with alot of experience under her belt. Took her almost 9 months to get a job in Toronto.

I work for a large bank down town and I see heaps of immigrants coming in. They are literally bringing in relocations left right and centre. The amount of Chinese, Indians that I see them bringing in that don't even speak a word of English, making $80 to $120K. Jobs that could be going to Canadians and money that could be going to Canadians is being used to relocate people from all over the world for jobs that I am very, very sure a Canadian could fill.

Pretty weird system we have.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:54 PM   #23
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I have never seen a A+ high school graduate doing advanced courses choose college over university. There is a reason for this.
.
I have ...
and some of the reasoning you imply has more to do with social issues rather than quality or difficulty of education. I can think of countless folks who wouldve benefited with college education over uni...and/or many who have gone to college afterwards looking for more.

Of course this all depends on what you want to compare but blanket statements about either isnt really correct.

I also know quite a few uni eng grads that are complete morons. Taking a test well doesnt mean you really have a clue about whats going, good basic understanding or really have a good design/eng brain.

It varies by an individual basis.


this is a good article


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle2416390/
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Old 04-30-2012, 09:04 PM   #24
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A blanket statement isn't fair, true.

However there are alot of dumb people at college. That being said, there are alot of dumb people in university to. Come to think of it, there are alot of dumb people everywhere, sometimes you just gotta play cards the right way.
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:18 AM   #25
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Collage eh?

The practical skills can always be taught, but it's the problem solving skills the university graduate has is more valuable. I am not saying college graduates can't problem solve or think. The university graduate generally is able to keep going to higher learning such as research, not possible for a college graduate unless he does a bachelor. That's why in the field of engineering, colleges are not accredited to join the Engineering associations. There is a reason why most people go into university than college. I have never seen a A+ high school graduate doing advanced courses choose college over university. There is a reason for this.

Perhaps that is the traditional view, and maybe that has been the case in the past, but the "thinking" gap between college and university has become negligible in many areas of study. Not sure when the last time you took part in an educational institution, or which one that was, but my guess is it hasn’t been recent because a lot has changed in the last 10 years. Many colleges are much more innovative in their teaching methods then university. Not to mention the fact that most universities (particularly when it comes to the sciences) have become a crapshoot of mindless memorization and multiple choice. That hardly inspires any thinking ability. Not to mention it does a poor job of accurately identifying who the truly intelligent students are, and sometimes it isn't even a valid testing method for the subject matter, yet it makes up 90-100% of the evaluation process in many courses.

In many cases university has proven no more viable for acquiring work, it costs more which results in a wall of student debt, takes twice as long, and often leaves you less prepared in terms of applicable skills forcing you to a) have to settle for a bottom of the barrel job with crappy pay, b) peruse even more school (more debt, more time), or c) find a job in an unrelated profession that pays the bills, which means you just wasted 4 years of your life with nothing to show for it, aside from your prestigious degree in underwater basket weaving.

You also cannot generalize about the “smart” students going to university. Firstly I doubt that’s even true, in fact I know its not, secondly, your making a very big assumption that school marks are an accurate measure of intelligence, and that is also not always the case.

I don’t wanna get into a university vs college debate because it’s really a moot point. I was never trying to insinuate one was better then the other anyway. Both have their place depending on the industry, yet students are conditioned to think otherwise.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:07 AM   #26
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Not really sure about engineering jobs in Ontario. My sister finished engineering, and while she didn't finish top of her class, she finished at U of T with alot of experience under her belt. Took her almost 9 months to get a job in Toronto.

If you don't mind me asking, what field of engineering did your sister study? I finished my undergrad in mechanical engineering about this time a year ago and all of the guys (and one girl) from my class who I keep in touch with didn't have much trouble finding jobs, in fact a lot of them had full time jobs lined up before they graduated.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:42 AM   #27
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depends on what time you guys are comparing...

in the last yr or so eng stuff has picked up a lot in ontario...
before hand(see 08-10)...not so much. A lot of people lost their jobs and they were harder to find.

and getting a job at linamar is cake. they always have open positions because no one wants to work there
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:47 AM   #28
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However there are alot of dumb people at college. That being said, there are alot of dumb people in university to. Come to think of it, there are alot of dumb people everywhere, sometimes you just gotta play cards the right way.
lol, I think this is the best statement in this thread...
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:51 PM   #29
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and getting a job at linamar is cake. they always have open positions because no one wants to work there
Who said anything about Linamar?
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:26 AM   #30
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whiny entitled little brats...things go up in price, it's a fact of life...gvts have been cutting everywhere and are trying to balance budgets so the Quebec gvt made the intelligent decision that they can't keep subsidizing the students at the current level.
If they lose 1 semester, the cost of that extra semester will wipe out the money they save if...and that's a big if...the gvt agrees to keep the tuitions at this low rate.

Just my opinion

Anyway polls show most Quebeckers support the tuition increases so all the protesting just puts the public opinion against them...it's lose lose for the students...so go back to class
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