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View Poll Results: Upgrade or Buy an M3?
Fix my issues and upgrade engine 22 48.89%
Sell and buy an m3 cab 23 51.11%
Voters: 45. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-23-2011, 09:51 AM   #31
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M3 Swap cost min. 10k
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:43 PM   #32
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s50b32 325is > US m3

I would pick the s50b32 over the s54 (have driven both), if you look at the dyno sheets you will see power delivery is very similar, with the s54 producing a slight bit more power on average roughly 3-5% more but that could be due to the older age of the s50b32's but also at the same time having a steeper downturn in torque after 5000rpm.

Personally I absolutely HATE drive by wire, another problem with the s54 is that it is an electronic nightmare in comparison to the s50b32. 12-15 year old s50b32's with 100k+ miles are putting down clean numbers, the long term reliability is there. We will have to see with the s54's; people say they are more reliable, and they might be but we will have to see in years time.

I'm not really sure who started the whole s54 bandwagon thing, but it seems to be going around. Keep an eye out for some more s50b32 deals in the forsale section. Might even see some s38b38/s85b50 popping up, but we will see about that.
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Old 01-23-2011, 01:57 PM   #33
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s50b32 325is > US m3

I would pick the s50b32 over the s54 (have driven both), if you look at the dyno sheets you will see power delivery is very similar, with the s54 producing a slight bit more power on average roughly 3-5% more but that could be due to the older age of the s50b32's but also at the same time having a steeper downturn in torque after 5000rpm.

Personally I absolutely HATE drive by wire, another problem with the s54 is that it is an electronic nightmare in comparison to the s50b32. 12-15 year old s50b32's with 100k+ miles are putting down clean numbers, the long term reliability is there. We will have to see with the s54's; people say they are more reliable, and they might be but we will have to see in years time.

I'm not really sure who started the whole s54 bandwagon thing, but it seems to be going around. Keep an eye out for some more s50b32 deals in the forsale section. Might even see some s38b38/s85b50 popping up, but we will see about that.
I don't know who started the S54 bandwagon but I was in on it pretty early, when I told JazzM to go that route back in 2005 and it worked quite well for him. The install was done by Munich Motors and the wiring was interfaced to the car by a pretty smart guy named Igor, who worked for some German car makers in the past. I worked on the software aspect of it. It's not super hard to do now, and I know much more about how to do it as I've been decompiling the MSS54 ECU and focusing on many things, such as better VANOS control, EWS removal, etc. All the club racers who have their cars at RAVEN/Bavarian Motors have switched from the S50B32 to the S54 now. One option that has been available for about 2 years is to buy a $3000 conversion kit from Bimmerworld, which simplifies the install.
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Old 01-23-2011, 02:24 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noid View Post
s50b32 325is > US m3

I would pick the s50b32 over the s54 (have driven both), if you look at the dyno sheets you will see power delivery is very similar, with the s54 producing a slight bit more power on average roughly 3-5% more but that could be due to the older age of the s50b32's but also at the same time having a steeper downturn in torque after 5000rpm.

Personally I absolutely HATE drive by wire, another problem with the s54 is that it is an electronic nightmare in comparison to the s50b32. 12-15 year old s50b32's with 100k+ miles are putting down clean numbers, the long term reliability is there. We will have to see with the s54's; people say they are more reliable, and they might be but we will have to see in years time.

I'm not really sure who started the whole s54 bandwagon thing, but it seems to be going around. Keep an eye out for some more s50b32 deals in the forsale section. Might even see some s38b38/s85b50 popping up, but we will see about that.
S54's with 300,000K+ put down more than stock 333hp. .
Show me a similar comparison with the s50b32, that doesn't require a very pricey rebuild due its dual cast head at that millage.

And also as i said before #'s are irrelevant. Most S54's are underrated. If you want we can put them to the test find me an S50B32 in an e36 to race. We can all go to Cayuga to have some fun .
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:26 PM   #35
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300km = 180miles. Plenty running around Europe with around that with clean numbers. Just a month and some ago I saw a compression test on a ~160 mile s50b32 show about 12.5 bar consistently through all cylinders in one of my buddies cars. I have a video but its exceptionally poor quality (shot with a phone) so cant really see the gauge very well. No dyno unfortunately so I cant confirm power at the wheels. Again this doesnt mean the s54 isnt more reliable, it may very well be, but only time will tell its long term reliability.

Both the s54 and s50 are fine fine motors, I dont think anyone could possibly be disappointed with ether. The s54 although getting cheaper is still a more expensive route especially if your swapping it in a car that was natively not meant to have it. Im sure there is more money to be made on someone who is paying to swap in an s54 over an s50, which is why i think partially the bandwagon is gaining momentum.

I've driven both, they feel different, personally i prefer the feel of the s50b32 but you might prefer the s54, nothing wrong with that.

Did I mention I hate drive by wire? Everyday of the week driving the e53 and e90 I wish both had throttle cables.

Now a s85b50 swap is what we should be talking about (for those with cash to spare)

Last edited by noid; 01-23-2011 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:36 PM   #36
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Everyday of the week driving the e53 and e90 I wish both had throttle cables and a carb
Fixed
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:38 PM   #37
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Again this doesnt mean the s54 isnt more reliable, it may very well be, but only time will tell its long term reliability.
I'm not sure why you keep saying that? The early s54s are over 10years old. There are numerous ones running strong with 300+km/200+miles, but that means nothing it's all about maintaining one. The e46 m3 has the highest production numbers of all M3s to date, so there are an abundance of used S54s out there, not to mention the availability of parts.
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Old 01-23-2011, 03:55 PM   #38
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Fixed
Funny you say that I have always been interested in putting a carburetor(s) on engines that were never ment to have them. Case and point this is an m20 out of an e30 (then put in a e21):






Here is a bmw m70 with a carb setup:



Here is an s38 he claims after dyno he put down "25Nm more max torque with the long velocity stacks, but leaning out at top end and about 10 hp less hp at the top. 450Nm and 361hp.

426Nm and 371hp with short velocity stacks

/Otto"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TVO5...ayer_embedded#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx1Mf...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbSeC...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apUNpKTuPiE

At one point I even thought about converting a m60 into a carbureted engine similar to old ferrari's but then realized i would be getting way over my head. But still worthy of pictures here is a 1961 250tr spider:



I think it would be a cool way to show what a shop can do if they were to make an s54 or s50b32 carbed.

Last edited by noid; 01-23-2011 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 01-23-2011, 04:31 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noid View Post
Funny you say that I have always been interested in putting a carburetor(s) on engines that were never ment to have them. Case and point this is an m20 out of an e30 (then put in a e21):

Here is a bmw m70 with a carb setup:

Here is an s38 he claims after dyno he put down "25Nm more max torque with the long velocity stacks, but leaning out at top end and about 10 hp less hp at the top. 450Nm and 361hp.

426Nm and 371hp with short velocity stacks

/Otto"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TVO5...ayer_embedded#!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx1Mf...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbSeC...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apUNpKTuPiE

At one point I even thought about converting a m60 into a carbureted engine similar to old ferrari's but then realized i would be getting way over my head. But still worthy of pictures here is a 1961 250tr spider:

I think it would be a cool way to show what a shop can do if they were to make an s54 or s50b32 carbed.
LOL are you on crack? Yeah okay. Lets throw away all the millions of dollars and time on R&D for EFI, so we can put on a less accurate method for fuel management. Yes... because carburetors are soooo advanced and gain soooo much power.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:15 PM   #40
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LOL are you on crack? Yeah okay. Lets throw away all the millions of dollars and time on R&D for EFI, so we can put on a less accurate method for fuel management. Yes... because carburetors are soooo advanced and gain soooo much power.
I said it interests me, not that we should all go out and switch our engines to run carburetors. The main advantage of carbs is that the fuel atomization is better, it is easier to tune, simple as hell to trouble shoot, easy to pull more power out, and rebuild kits cost pennies. Carbs are raw and mechanical which to me is interesting. Disadvantages? Theres also a slew of them, but that doesnt make the idea of putting a carb on a s38 any less interesting.
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Old 01-23-2011, 05:49 PM   #41
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LOL are you on crack? Yeah okay. Lets throw away all the millions of dollars and time on R&D for EFI, so we can put on a less accurate method for fuel management. Yes... because carburetors are soooo advanced and gain soooo much power.
I'm not on crack and I always dream of putting modern EFI on motors that didn't have it, like the M10

I can't see why anyone would want some ancient crap on their motor when EFI has only positive things going for it compared to carbs.
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Old 01-23-2011, 06:41 PM   #42
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I'm not on crack and I always dream of putting modern EFI on motors that didn't have it, like the M10

I can't see why anyone would want some ancient crap on their motor when EFI has only positive things going for it compared to carbs.
Just because a carburetor is mechanical doesn't make the concept of a carburetor ancient (in design), all it means is that the idea of mechanical delivery started before electronically delivering it. Generally speaking more power can be achieved with a carburetor vs EFI at the cost of fuel economy, reliability, and self adjustability. The reason the gas fuel atomization is better is because with a carb the fuel has more surface area to travel through which is also the exact reason why it is possible to flow more fuel and thus gain a lot more power with a carb (again lots of disadvantages too). Maybe im just playing the devils advocate here, I actually prefer a daily driver all day long with EFI, carbed bmw's are darn cool in my opinion though, and would be nice to have a project carb motor.

Lots of guys with LSx motors carb their vehicles, but that might just be because they grew up around them and thats all they understand.
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:03 PM   #43
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Just because a carburetor is mechanical doesn't make the concept of a carburetor ancient (in design), all it means is that the idea of mechanical delivery started before electronically delivering it. Generally speaking more power can be achieved with a carburetor vs EFI at the cost of fuel economy, reliability, and self adjustability. The reason the gas fuel atomization is better is because with a carb the fuel has more surface area to travel through which is also the exact reason why it is possible to flow more fuel and thus gain a lot more power with a carb (again lots of disadvantages too). Maybe im just playing the devils advocate here, I actually prefer a daily driver all day long with EFI, carbed bmw's are darn cool in my opinion though, and would be nice to have a project carb motor.

Lots of guys with LSx motors carb their vehicles, but that might just be because they grew up around them and thats all they understand.
If carbs on motors were so good and gave big power, why is it that only with modern EFI (last 13 years) we have seen more cars with over 300 hp, and now in the last 5 years we have cars meeting SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle) standrads? You can't do that with a carb. With carbs it's always a compomise. There is nothing that can't be done better with now with EFI. You have much better control of the ignition timing and AFR with EFI, and that translates to more torque.

If carbs were so good, why are they not still used on modern race cars?
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Old 01-23-2011, 07:22 PM   #44
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Generally speaking more power can be achieved with a carburetor vs EFI at the cost of fuel economy, reliability, and self adjustability. The reason the gas fuel atomization is better is because with a carb the fuel has more surface area to travel through which is also the exact reason why it is possible to flow more fuel and thus gain a lot more power with a carb (again lots of disadvantages too).
Generally speaking, that is asinine. It may have been partially true with some early EFI, with throttle body injection. Carbs allow the user to tune the fuel delivery without knowing anything about electronics, or having any tools other than screwdrivers. This comes at the cost of power, fuel efficiency, throttle response, reliability and severe limitations with positive pressure (ie forced induction). What you're saying is about as true as saying that mechanical watches are generally speaking, superior to digital ones. Is it universally untrue? No, but it's far from the general rule.

So generally speaking, if a carb'ed motor managed to produce the same power as a properly configured and tuned EFI one, it was at a specific rpm, load, baro pressure etc. In other words, a complete fluke.

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carbed bmw's are darn cool
I agree, carbs are cool. So are these (and if you want to talk about mechanical complexity, they make a carb look like a box of rocks):

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Old 01-23-2011, 09:40 PM   #45
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If carbs on motors were so good and gave big power, why is it that only with modern EFI (last 13 years) we have seen more cars with over 300 hp, and now in the last 5 years we have cars meeting SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle) standrads? You can't do that with a carb. With carbs it's always a compomise. There is nothing that can't be done better with now with EFI. You have much better control of the ignition timing and AFR with EFI, and that translates to more torque.

If carbs were so good, why are they not still used on modern race cars?
Simple, carb cars are a pain in the ass especially in the cold, you have to rejet/tune/prime the engine and guzzle gas . Not exactly what 99% of the public wants, people want a trouble free push, start and go reliable vehicle.

But for the rest of the 1% for non daily driving purposes, but the same things that make them shitty make them fun because its mechanical and that means anyone can tune it, if somethings not working right its always a cheap fix and easy as sin to diagnose. They sound and drive different again more raw more mechanical. To be honest my carb experience is limited to 80's american cars which i agree isnt much, but i do have experience with carb's in motorsports and theres a reason why even to this day almost all sport atv's run carbs, race engines just run best on carbs. Take a look at drag vehicles, the reason they use carbs still to this day is because you can only get stable fuel/air mixture and perfect atomization at full throttle with a carb. Thats also a big reason why the guys with LSx motors carb their motors. Also why nascar is still running carbs on all their vehicles (since they are wide open throttle all the time).

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and if you want to talk about mechanical complexity, they make a carb look like a box of rocks
Thats the beauty of carbs they are so simple anyone can work on them.
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