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Old 08-05-2010, 12:08 AM   #46
magnus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstearnsy View Post
magnus, I believe the reason Dinan and I disagree with you so strongly is because your attitude on the subject is "one rocket from one idiot shouldn't cost a myriad of lives from counterstrikes."

It is not one rocket. It's hundreds of rockets. Thousands of rockets. Countless suicide bombings in civilian markets and cafes. None designed to attack Israeli soldiers or tactical locations. Just disfigure or kill civilians.

You eagerly call them counterstrikeS by Israel. Acknowledge for us that you realize there have been thousands of Hamas-government sanctioned attacks and deaths of Israelis over the last decade please?

What are you both blind?
I have said a million times Hammas is wrong.
Did not argue about that.
But can you honnestly say that The majority of people in Gaza are Hamas extremists????
What did they do to disserve the attacks from Israel or the limited freedom they get?
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"Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever"
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:15 AM   #47
mstearnsy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnus View Post
What are you both blind?
I have said a million times Hammas is wrong.
Did not argue about that.
But can you honnestly say that The majority of people in Gaza are Hamas extremists????
What did they do to disserve the attacks from Israel or the limited freedom they get?
They voted for Hamas. That answers both questions I guess. You make this too easy!

Israel doesn't attack citizens of Gaza intentionally. They have surveillance and do make a reasonable effort to locate the terrorists within Gaza. Israel can't control the decision of Hamas terrorists to locate themselves among the civilian population, or the decision of the civilian population to harbour and hide Hamas terrorists. One, or both, of those scenarios happen.

So the Hamas government terrorists know damn well that if they stand out in the open, near the security wall, and fire their rockets from there, civilians will NOT be attacked by Israel. If they fire them from the roof of a school, they are putting the lives of Gaza civilians at risk because Israel has a right to find and kill that terrorist. Where do they fire them from Magnus?
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:21 AM   #48
magnus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstearnsy View Post
Hmmm separation of two nations by a third party... where have I heard this one before. Oh ya. May 14, 1948, the UNITED NATIONS created the state of Israel. And on May 14, 1948, within hours of it's statehood, it was attacked by a coalition of Arab countries.

Where could we ever find a wall to physically separate Gaza, from Israel?? Oh ya, IN GAZA. The Israelis have built a security wall/fence over the last decade. It has dramatically reduce the suicide bombings but a wall doesn't do much against rocket fire.

You agree that Hamas will still try to eradicate Israel and Jewish civilians despite any security measures Israel might erect, and yet you STILL claim Israel is the bad guy? How can you contradict yourself so badly???

Here is where you are wrong....because the seperation was instigated and currently controlled by Israel.
If on the other hand there was a third party (whether its UN, or US or whatever it does not matter) that has an imparsial standpoint then there would be less problems.
But you guys seem to want to avoid to answer my question although i answer yours.
So here it goes agai....Do you think Israel has done all they could to solve this in a peacefull maner?

May I remind you that the rockets Hammas has at best reach 40km (actually 70% have a range of 20km).
Couldnt say Israel say that no build is made within that range? Not saying its the best solution but just as an example. And maybe have a controlled zone with outside cooperation there?

On top of that dont you think its strange that Israel never allows any interference or investigations in their actions?
Or the fact if the media say something negative about Israel they instantly condemn them as Anti Semetics?
Or maybe the fact they attack outsiders as the flotila attack and justify it as means of terrorism prevention.
As for the counterstrikes, yes that is what they are in most cases although Israel has in the past more than frequently initiated the strikes instead.
And you can not deny that the loses are greater for the Palestinians.
Its been well documented and you can easily google it.
You dont need to agree with me and i dont either.
But the fact is that Gaza is way below Israel in both financial and living status let alone military. Therefore in my eyes they are the litle guy. and although he may throw a stone occasionaly the way Israel replies is not right as its just causes him to keep throwing stones.
I realise you will never understand the way i see things and cant blame you but there is no way anyone can tell me that the damage Gaza does to Israel is nowhere near as big as the damage Israel does to Gaza, whether its financialy or simply by measuring the dead bodies!
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"Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever"
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:30 AM   #49
magnus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstearnsy View Post
They voted for Hamas. That answers both questions I guess. You make this too easy!

Israel doesn't attack citizens of Gaza intentionally. They have surveillance and do make a reasonable effort to locate the terrorists within Gaza. Israel can't control the decision of Hamas terrorists to locate themselves among the civilian population, or the decision of the civilian population to harbour and hide Hamas terrorists. One, or both, of those scenarios happen.

So the Hamas government terrorists know damn well that if they stand out in the open, near the security wall, and fire their rockets from there, civilians will NOT be attacked by Israel. If they fire them from the roof of a school, they are putting the lives of Gaza civilians at risk because Israel has a right to find and kill that terrorist. Where do they fire them from Magnus?

That says nothing....USA voted for Bush....twice...and the guy was a moron that more or less brought the world to a standstill.
On top of that what other option did they have?
And who can stop them firing from a school roof?
Plus how do you know they fired from there?
Ever fired a rocket?
I assume not. cause if you did you would know that the ones they fire are either mounted on trucks or portable.
They mainly use Qassam rockets and BM-21

The Qassam rockets on their best have a small range (10-20km) and therefore would barely hit anything.
The BM-21 is truck mounted so it can move wherever within 3 minutes with a crew of 4 to 5 men.

Israel on the other hand used White phosphorus rockets.
Any idea what these do?
Then the IDF repeatedly denied using white phosphorus munitions but acknowledged use after the war ended in Gaza.
Amnesty International found "indisputable evidence of the widespread use of white phosphorus" in crowded civilian residential areas of Gaza City.
There are multiple international laws that prohibit the use of such weapons against civilians. Even the US Command book says and i quote "It is against the law of land warfare to employ White Phosphorus against personnel targets."
Do you call that fair? or Self defence?
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"Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever"

Last edited by magnus; 08-05-2010 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:41 AM   #50
mstearnsy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnus View Post
Here is where you are wrong....because the seperation was instigated and currently controlled by Israel.
If on the other hand there was a third party (whether its UN, or US or whatever it does not matter) that has an imparsial standpoint then there would be less problems.
But you guys seem to want to avoid to answer my question although i answer yours.
So here it goes agai....Do you think Israel has done all they could to solve this in a peacefull maner?

May I remind you that the rockets Hammas has at best reach 40km (actually 70% have a range of 20km).
Couldnt say Israel say that no build is made within that range? Not saying its the best solution but just as an example. And maybe have a controlled zone with outside cooperation there?

On top of that dont you think its strange that Israel never allows any interference or investigations in their actions?
Or the fact if the media say something negative about Israel they instantly condemn them as Anti Semetics?
Or maybe the fact they attack outsiders as the flotila attack and justify it as means of terrorism prevention.
As for the counterstrikes, yes that is what they are in most cases although Israel has in the past more than frequently initiated the strikes instead.
And you can not deny that the loses are greater for the Palestinians.
Its been well documented and you can easily google it.
You dont need to agree with me and i dont either.
But the fact is that Gaza is way below Israel in both financial and living status let alone military. Therefore in my eyes they are the litle guy. and although he may throw a stone occasionaly the way Israel replies is not right as its just causes him to keep throwing stones.
I realise you will never understand the way i see things and cant blame you but there is no way anyone can tell me that the damage Gaza does to Israel is nowhere near as big as the damage Israel does to Gaza, whether its financialy or simply by measuring the dead bodies!
The United Nations Partition Plan vote was the defining moment that created Israel. Israel didn't exist, therefore Israel can't "create" itself. Yes, Jewish people around the world asked for a Jewish state after WW2, but the UN created it.

I agree entirely that Palestine suffers more casualties than Israel. I agree Israel is superior in financial, economic, militaristic, and quality of life terms. That doesn't mean they have to tolerate terrorism.

But the simple solution is not to say "don't build anything within a 70 km radius of Gaza" since Israel averages only 70 kms wide to begin with. The simple solution is DON'T FIRE ANY ****ING ROCKETS AT ISRAEL AND THEN ISRAEL WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE!!!! Why are they so stupid and can't understand that?

I believe completely that if left alone, Israel will be able to remain at peace with it's neighbours, to answer your question. Every time Israel has been attacked by an Arab coalition of multiple countries, Israel has dominated them with it's military. Israel has never wiped them off the map, as they have vowed to do to it. Israel has honoured that truce every time, and yet again an Arab nation breaks it (1948, 1967, 1973, etc etc). If you leave Israel alone, they will leave you alone. Simple as that.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:52 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnus View Post
So here it goes agai....Do you think Israel has done all they could to solve this in a peacefull maner?
Answered you before.....once again...

"Yes", because it is impossible for Israel to negotiate peace with an oponent (Hamas) that refuses to recognize your existence and is dead set on destroying you, no matter what.
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Old 08-05-2010, 12:57 AM   #52
magnus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mstearnsy View Post
The United Nations Partition Plan vote was the defining moment that created Israel. Israel didn't exist, therefore Israel can't "create" itself. Yes, Jewish people around the world asked for a Jewish state after WW2, but the UN created it.

I agree entirely that Palestine suffers more casualties than Israel. I agree Israel is superior in financial, economic, militaristic, and quality of life terms. That doesn't mean they have to tolerate terrorism.

But the simple solution is not to say "don't build anything within a 70 km radius of Gaza" since Israel averages only 70 kms wide to begin with. The simple solution is DON'T FIRE ANY ****ING ROCKETS AT ISRAEL AND THEN ISRAEL WILL LEAVE YOU ALONE!!!! Why are they so stupid and can't understand that?

I believe completely that if left alone, Israel will be able to remain at peace with it's neighbours, to answer your question. Every time Israel has been attacked by an Arab coalition of multiple countries, Israel has dominated them with it's military. Israel has never wiped them off the map, as they have vowed to do to it. Israel has honoured that truce every time, and yet again an Arab nation breaks it (1948, 1967, 1973, etc etc). If you leave Israel alone, they will leave you alone. Simple as that.


Now we are getting somewhere....
I did not say its the simple solution to create a zone of 40 or 70km. It would however be the ideal.
And i say this because it is a fact that Hammas will not do what they do. And in a way it is justified in my eyes as they are claiming their lost land(this is debatable i know and i am not going into that convo now so bare with me...).
If then we look things realisticaly a third party needs to be involved to bring peace there dont you agree?
What i dont like is the general expectation that Israel is always on the right. They arent. They have their moments just as much as Hammas. Unfortunatelly Palestinians pay more than Israelies in this conflict and i find it unreasonable to get idiotic comments or posts like this thread claiming all is well in Gaza...they have a McDonalds, or mall or etc.
In my eyes also it is easier for Israel to take the peacefull way to resolve this than it is for Palestine.
On top of that as they are in a superior position to Gazans in every way....there is no way i can justify their retaliation to every rock or rocket Hammas throws.
It would be like some say Canadian put a bomb in USA and USA replys by bombing and raiding Canada.
Even if there is support for that Canadian by other Canadians it simply is wrong!
I hope you get my point and i need to go to bed cause tomorrow i am rebuilding my subframe....lol
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"Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever"
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Old 08-05-2010, 09:13 AM   #53
Blackedout95
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How about being peaceful?

People like to bash the US for being forceful in their effort to make things better, I can partially agree.

But why is it that using force in this case is ok to create change? Maybe just maybe if you didnt poke a giant continually and showed some humanity and protested peacefully, the reigns would losen. Those walls, boarders and limitations are NOT a result of dealing with a peaceful neighbor. jmo
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Old 08-13-2010, 12:28 PM   #54
M3Power99
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Criticizing Israel or it's policies is not anti-semitic and when someone brings that up, it means you have no more logical arguments. Look up ad hominem logical fallacy.

One mall or two for the rich, and their are rich people in every society including sub-sahran Africa does not mean that Gaza as a whole is paradise to live in.

Comparing Israeli Jewish citizens living standards to Palestinians is night and day.
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