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Old 06-02-2010, 01:17 PM   #1
maroli
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Mclaren builds a car that's a generation ahead of Ferrari again....



http://www.evo.co.uk/features/featur...en_mp412c.html

The first Mclaren F1 was built in 1994, and not till 2004 was there a Ferrari made that could compete (Enzo). Now the details of the new 458 Italia competitor has been released, and the spec is at least a generation ahead. A full carbon tub, for starters. It's faster, lighter, and more tech than the Ferrari. More subtle in looks too. The 458 may be prettier, but the Formula 1 tech-transfer is unprecedented.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:30 PM   #2
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wtf? The F40 didn't compete with the F1?

If we've completely forgotten about the F40 competizione, can i mabye have one?
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:44 PM   #3
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no middle seat?
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:56 PM   #4
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The F40 preceded the Mclaren F1. Great car, but it lagged a lot, the build quality was pretty horrific, and the interior was spartan. Then Mclaren built the F1. Ferrari's response was the F50, a car with 75 less horsepower, weighed more, and was EXTREMELY harsh due to the suspension using metal bushes. It was dynamically excellent, but the tech still wasn't as high as the Macca. Again, the Macca was a better road car with a better interior. I guess some ground was made up with the Enzo, but funnily EVO lapped a Mclaren faster than an Enzo. And yeah, no middle seat Boots...but they have both seats on either side of the centre line of the chassis, so close enough.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:06 PM   #5
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Lagged in what? The F1 was only good at one thing - straight line acceleration and speed. In an R&T or C&D (don't remember anymore) test, they wanted to do a top speed shootout and the F1 only won by a bit - almost pipped by a Lingenfelter ZR1 (C4), actually they did beat the F1 but only after removing the cats which they realized were too restrictive. But this disqualified it as not being a street legal car. The test driver said the Vette felt great while the F1 scared the living shit out of him. They had a fast banked turn leading up to the straight where they built up speed and he said the F1 rear end felt very skittish. The driver? Mario Andretti. And let's not talk about the interior. Ok it wasn't as basic as the F40's but only by a nose - it's no Lambo.

Ferrari has never built cars for top speed. The Enzo has not "beaten" the F1, it's still slower than the F1 in all the ways the F1 was fast, same goes for every Ferrari. But most every Ferrari since probably the F40 has been head to nuts superior in every other way.

I admit I was as big a fanboi of the F1 as anyone but lets not misrepresent it. The only thing about it that was ever really worth the attention was the engine.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:14 PM   #6
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Lagged in what? The F1 was only good at one thing - straight line acceleration and speed. In an R&T or C&D (don't remember anymore) test, they wanted to do a top speed shootout and the F1 only won by a bit - almost pipped by a Lingenfelter ZR1 (C4), actually they did beat the F1 but only after removing the cats which they realized were too restrictive. But this disqualified it as not being a street legal car. The test driver said the Vette felt great while the F1 scared the living shit out of him. They had a fast banked turn leading up to the straight where they built up speed and he said the F1 rear end felt very skittish. The driver? Mario Andretti. And let's not talk about the interior. Ok it wasn't as basic as the F40's but only by a nose - it's no Lambo.

Ferrari has never built cars for top speed. The Enzo has not "beaten" the F1, it's still slower than the F1 in all the ways the F1 was fast, same goes for every Ferrari. But most every Ferrari since probably the F40 has been head to nuts superior in every other way.

I admit I was as big a fanboi of the F1 as anyone but lets not misrepresent it. The only thing about it that was ever really worth the attention was the engine.
Lag as in turbo lag

The F1 is more challenging to drive quickly than the F50 and Enzo, but it's a superior road car. The rear end is quite skittish, but don't forget that the Mclaren that was set up for the Road and Track test was an Ameritech version, which hadn't been calibrated. The F1 was not EVER intended to go as fast as it ended up doing so, it was merely coincidental. It was designed to be the best ROAD car ever. And the interior is fantastic, I don't know what you mean? Everything is bespoke, everything is built with utmost quality. The carbon work on an Enzo is sloppy by comparison. It's said that the only car that can match its fetishistic attention to detail is the Zonda. And the contemporary Lambo's of the time had a pretty shoddy interior as it was pre-Audi. Only recently have their interiors come through as nice, although I have to say the Ferrari 458 and the LFA and of course the Zonda have the best current interiors.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:18 PM   #7
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:35 PM   #8
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Lag as in turbo lag
This is true, but we're also talking 1980's turbo technology. This new McLaren has a 3.8 V8 with 600hp. The F40 had a 3L with 470. That's about the same hp/L. I'd say the latter is a greater achievement given the generation.

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The F1 is more challenging to drive quickly than the F50 and Enzo, but it's a superior road car. The rear end is quite skittish, but don't forget that the Mclaren that was set up for the Road and Track test was an Ameritech version, which hadn't been calibrated. The F1 was not EVER intended to go as fast as it ended up doing so, it was merely coincidental. It was designed to be the best ROAD car ever. And the interior is fantastic, I don't know what you mean? Everything is bespoke, everything is built with utmost quality. The carbon work on an Enzo is sloppy by comparison. It's said that the only car that can match its fetishistic attention to detail is the Zonda. And the contemporary Lambo's of the time had a pretty shoddy interior as it was pre-Audi. Only recently have their interiors come through as nice, although I have to say the Ferrari 458 and the LFA and of course the Zonda have the best current interiors.
Cool, didn't know that about calibration. I do remember them mentioning that McLaren supplies one of two ringers to magazines - one for top speed and one for acceleration, and they may have gotten the latter since the test car never came close to the 240 record.

The best road car? How would you define that? I wouldn't want to drive any of the above in stop and go traffic. You can't use more than a quarter of their performance potential on the road... I think all of these cars are basically street legal race cars, and by that definition, the F1 is a drag racer/salt flats top speed demon with some handling potential (well lots of potential as shown by their racing efforts but stock, only some).

What would you say is so amazing about this interior, looks like a carpeted track car cockpit:



Looks as dead-nuts basic/functional as the Ferraris, other than having carpet. I can't comment on fit/finish having never seen one up close, let alone having sat in one. But I personally don't see anything above that's immensely more luxurious than an F40 (power windows?):



Or as luxurious as (staying contemporary) say a 355 (man how the hell do you drive that with the pedals so far right):



Or Diablo:

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Old 06-02-2010, 02:57 PM   #9
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well, for starters....the F1 had a sound system built just for them by Kenwood....with special magnets....the carbon used is apparently perfect in weave...it has air conditioning, power windows, etc etc, and all the materials are either titanium (even the pedals!) or carbon. Also the design, with the instruments around the driver is very nice and straightforward, I'm sure you'd agree the layout is better than the 355?. The car has a nice greenhouse, with great clarity, the suspension is quite supple (hence the high level of body roll which means its not a decisive handling as an F50). I just think the amount of technology transfer from F1 and the no-costs-barred construction of the car makes it more exotic. A delivery mileage car just sold for 2.4 mllion pounds!! It is DEFINITELY a flawed car though, apparently like you said, it's quite tricky to drive, the steering is too heavy (although feel and feedback is better than the F-cars) and the brakes are pretty horrific apparently, lol. But come on, even the toolkit is titanium 24 carat gold lining for the engine bay (best reflector of heat), and it had an onboard modem to deliver telemetry to Mclaren HQ back in 1994! But at the end of the day, cars are ALL about taste and everyone likes what they do! Do you agree that the spec of the new Macca outshines the 458 though?
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Old 06-02-2010, 03:18 PM   #10
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I concede that the materials and technology are super pimp but in the end, you don't appreciate these things from a luxury point of view (unless it's a tactile difference). A Rolls is just leather and wood, stuff you'd find in a horse carriage. And I definitely agree the F1 layout is amazing but again, for what? I'd love to have that driving position and control layout on the track. But I can't say it would look/feel luxurious cruising public streets... The Lambo on the other hand, looks like it'd be quite pleasant to live in (although I do remember an R&T article where they drove one across the US and said that the seats have next to no padding).

If you're comparing them in levels of technology then the debate is over for sure, I concede. And perhaps that's all McLaren ever wanted to make and in that case, mission accomplished. But if they wanted to make the ultimate street legal high performance car, I think they failed, even in its day.

Then again, maybe acceleration is really all the road-going owner can really appreciate in a sports car so perhaps they were on to something. Have you ever seen Clarkson's review of the F50? It's along the lines of what you're talking about (although ironically, he's in love with the F40). He raved on about how amazingly the car performs on track but then said as a result, the car's a piece of shit. It does some things incredibly, being a road-adapted F1 car. The only problem is that none of it is usable on the street and all the things it does incredibly makes it awful at everything you would want on the street.

(found it, in case you haven't seen it)

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Old 06-02-2010, 04:49 PM   #11
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yep, I've seen it. Clarkson is a bit of an idiot though. EVO ran a test where they compared the Enzo to the F50 to the F40 to the 288 GTO...and the shock winner was the F50. It was unfairly maligned because its quite a compromised road car, but in terms of dynamics, it was better than the other F's and better than the Mclaren too. I think you are correct in saying that despite all the tech transfer and attention to detail, the Mclaren isn't the greatest DRIVERS car ever made, but because of its evocative nature, THAT badge, and its technology, it may be the greatest supercar ever made. I'm sure, with this new Mclaren being more mass-produced, that it'll have proper development so that there won't be flaws like last time with the steering and brakes. The ethos of building a small, light car that rides well and is beautifully made will hopefully be retained.
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