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Old 03-12-2010, 10:40 AM   #31
voluted
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All of this information can be found in the manual. If you want the right to drive on the road you should be responsible enough to know how your car operates.

Regardless, Toyota and the rest should have this:


Last edited by voluted; 03-12-2010 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1unekE46 View Post
Hey look it up, I have actually driven and seen this vehicle. You can just use google, but here is one of the first results. However maybe we are saying the same thing because the MC does still push the fluid to press the caliper piston.

4th paragraph from the bottom.
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...s-1002566.html

26. The Prius is the first car to feature a fully electronic brake by wire system. Mercedes had dabbled with this set-up but Toyota offer a more sophisticated arrangement that allows for the brakes to recharge the battery packs under braking. Customers have been traditionally wary of these techniques, preferring to squirt some goo up a pipe instead, all the while conveniently ignoring the fact that their steering is probably electronically controlled.
Ready for me to prove you wrong?

Time me. ok GO!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/01-09...Q5fAccessories

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05...item5ad71e1d2b

That was like 1 second!
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:49 PM   #33
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That's fine, but the master cylinder isn't mechanically influenced by the driver's pedal input. The input is analyzed by a computer which determines how much force needs to be applied to the master. I think the Prius uses negative torque from the engine before using hydraulics too. From what i was reading it seems pretty complex.

Regardless, it still has mechanical brake components but they are controlled by electronics. Similarly, drive-by-wire still uses a regular looking throttle body, but the difference is that instead of a cable going from the gas pedal to the throttle, there is an electronic system that controls the butterfly opening/closing.

Last edited by voluted; 03-12-2010 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Typos :P
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Old 03-12-2010, 12:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voluted View Post
That's fine, but the master cylinder isn't mechanically influenced by the driver's pedal input. The input is analyzed by a computer which determines how much force needs to be applied to the master. I think the Prius uses negative torque from the engine before using hydraulics too. From what i was reading it seems pretty complex.

Regardless, it still has mechanical brake components, but they are controlled by with electronics, just like drive-by-wire still uses a regular looking throttle body. The difference is that instead of a cable going from the gas pedal to the throttle, there is an electronic system that controls the butterfly opening/closing.


Thank you, this is all that I wanted to get across. I was not indicating that the vehicle does not use a conventional MC, caliper, pads, rotors setup to brake, but rather the integration/input of electronic sensors between these systems.

Anyhow, no use beating this topic to death. There is clearly some component or combination of components, mechanical / electrical that are causing these issues for Toyota.

btw propr'one, next time, take more than a second to read the post and respond.....
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Old 03-12-2010, 01:46 PM   #35
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http://techinfo.toyota.com/ (find a login online, i can't find one i can give you)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TOYOTAS_ARE_DEADLY
The prius does not have the typical (for other cars), “diaphragm vacuum booster”. Which makes sense, the Prius is not a typical car, and as the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) is not running all the time, there would not be a reliable source of vacuum. Thus the engineers must have designed the power brake system some other way.

Reading the Owner’s Manual, there is a hint on page 221, “The brake actuator uses brake fluid pressurized by the pump to power-assist the brakes.” This pump must be electrically powered, so pursuing this hint, I downloaded all of the 2005 Prius Wiring Diagrams from the Toyota Technical Information System (http://techinfo.toyota.com).
So unless "power-assist" means "doesn't work at all without power assistance" (i'm pretty sure they would've phrased it differently if it were), you're wrong.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:25 PM   #36
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The term "power assist" in conventional cars refers to the brake booster, which uses vacuum from the engine to multiply the force your foot applies to the master cylinder. Since the engine in the prius isn't on all of the time it does not have a vacuum brake booster.

Here is a picture of the prius's 'power assist' unit:



It isn't connected to the pedal by any lever/wire. It is controlled completely by electronic devices which take readings from the brake pedal and it's sensors. The computers use the information to determine how much power assist the unit must provide to the hydraulic portion of the prius's braking system. As I said before, the Prius's main form of braking comes from converting it's electric engine into a generator for the time you are braking which slows you down while putting power back into the system. The hydraulic system is used in low speed braking and to help the electric braking when necessary (panic stops for example).

You can't even bleed to prius's brakes without a Toyota scan tool...because the pedal isn't connected mechanically to the system.

Last edited by voluted; 03-12-2010 at 02:48 PM.
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Old 03-12-2010, 02:47 PM   #37
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The power assist is electronically controlled. I'm not arguing that. However, you just said yourself it has a hydraulic system (with brake pads) that is used in panic braking. Even if power assist didn't work at all, the brakes would still work.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:12 PM   #38
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^ remember the random, yet genius thoughts thread from earlier this week. well...

Quote:
-Nothing sucks more than that moment during an argument when you realize you're wrong.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:15 PM   #39
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No man, that power assist unit controls all of the brake input for the hydraulic system. If the electronic pedal signal doesn't make it to that unit, no more brakes! Theres a pump on that unit that controls all the pressure in the system.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:07 PM   #40
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Why is there a master cylinder then if the brake pedal isn't connected to the brake pedal? Wouldn't you just need the "power assist" pump then?

I'll gladly admit i'm wrong as soon as someone proves to me that i am. We're far away from that for now.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:16 PM   #41
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Dude ... are you telling me then that let's say your car dies while you are travelling at 100kph on the highway ... say the battery cable come loose or some shit. NO power to the car. And you're saying that since the "power assist" module is not working (it's electric after all, right?) that YOU WILL HAVE NO BRAKES????? YOu pushing the brake pedal will do nothing, since the computers will not tell the brakes to activate???

Think about this for a minute before you answer.
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Old 03-12-2010, 07:40 PM   #42
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Plus mother****in' one.

If that WERE true, that would be a lot more frightening than 1/100000 chance of a pedal sticking.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:31 PM   #43
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Lol I didn't design the car, but there is no conventional MC in it. Rather than telling me how wrong I am why don't you take 5 minutes and do some research yourself rather than assuming . The power assist module is the unit that pressurizes the system. It basically is the master cylinder.

And please remember that the car's engine is an electric generator. The main battery isn't the main source of power for the car. If it's disconnected randomly while your driving the car won't just turn off. Who has ever had a battery randomly unplug while driving anyway? If that were a possibility i would be much more worried about other systems on the car failing lol.

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Old 03-12-2010, 09:43 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotcH View Post
Dude ... are you telling me then that let's say your car dies while you are travelling at 100kph on the highway ... say the battery cable come loose or some shit. NO power to the car. And you're saying that since the "power assist" module is not working (it's electric after all, right?) that YOU WILL HAVE NO BRAKES????? YOu pushing the brake pedal will do nothing, since the computers will not tell the brakes to activate???

Think about this for a minute before you answer.



And yes that is exactly what I am saying. No throttle, no power windows, no power locks, lights out! If the vehicle has absolutely no source of power, all of the systems that are powered electrically will no longer operate.

I don't understand why this is so hard for you guys to grasp.

The brakes in this car are electronically controlled. That power assist unit is the master cylinder, it is the brake booster.
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:55 PM   #45
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Well, you're right, I AM too lazy to look it up (spent 5 minutes ... alll that comes up is media crap about runaway toyota, no actual technical info).

If this is REALLY how it works (ie, absolutely no mechanical connection between brake pedal and brake calipers), then I will certainly NEVER own one of these cars, neither will anyone I know, since this basically is relaying on a computer to not kill me. **** that. I can live with by-wire anything else (even steering I suppose), but brakes? that's pretty fundamental, and it's not like Toyota is Lockheed where they've taken the time to desig proper failsafes for these systems.

Anyway, just for closure, I'd still like to see exactly the actual components of the brake pedal assembly on a Prius. Anyone have a source for some tech drawings or a manual? Honestly, I still don't buy it, util I see the proof (in drawings, not in writing, since people are retards and descriptions of systems are often inaccurate).
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