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Old 06-22-2009, 12:01 PM   #16
Fel
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^^^exactly, thanks. The team description is a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigD View Post
Oh so in the GTR you keep it floored turning into a corner? Don't be silly. The dyno graph proves everything you need. He claims that the secret to the GTR's performance is not cheating but that the ZR1 is not at max power as often as the GTR. Well the dyno graph shows that even when the ZR1 is not at the max, it develops MORE torque (which he emphasizes specifically) than the GTR does at the max (again, using their claimed power figures). Add to that better brakes, less weight to decelerate, accelerate and hold in a turn, more tire to generate those forces and you get a big steamy pile of BS.
No, you don't keep it floored turning into a corner. But you can get on the power sooner and faster coming out of that corner. If you were too early in on a corner with the ZR1 and suddenly mash the pedal to the floor, you'll lose your ass and it's over. The GT-R will actually put that power down and push you through the turn while maintaining balance. Use of power is key.

And that's what he means about the ZR1 not being at it's max power all the time. It's not the power output in the rev rrange that he's referring to... it's more that you have to gradually open the throttle coming out of a corner and be near the straight before you go WOT otherwise you might disturb the balance of the car. I guess the GT-R can handle more throttle, sooner.
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:22 PM   #17
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On tracks with lots of uphill sweepers (especially in the negative rise sections where it goes back to flat and the car is relatively unweighted), powered tires help to vector the car around.

I suspect that on a track like the Ring, a smart AWD system can exploit it quite well.

I've always said that the best drivetrain would be one that can electronically transfer power forwards and backwards seamlessly to both enhance traction and to reduce parasitic drivetrain losses. We're nowhere near that but one day!
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:18 PM   #18
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Sorry I don't buy any of the arguments about putting power down. I don't care that it drives 4 wheels, they are still dinky little 245/275s on a car that weighs half a ton more than the car with 320s or whatever. A good driver will be able to squeeze on as much power as the available grip can take, which for the ZR1, and definitely for the other 4wd supercars with proper tires (like the 911 which the GTR claims to beat) is significantly greater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMG_POWER View Post
And whoever says its UGLY go see it in person, I think its one of the most beutifull cars out there.
I've seen a few in person, one on the track, it's hideous. I'd probably find it cool if I was a kid - it reminds me of those crazy Japanese robot cartoons I used to watch when I was a kid, I think it was called Macross. I like what Grassroots said about this car - the people who like it can't afford it and those who can afford it will not likely pay so much money for a car that's this noisy and cheap inside (also it apparently gets horrid fuel economy, even for a car like this), and so ugly to boot.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:33 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigD View Post
Sorry I don't buy any of the arguments about putting power down. I don't care that it drives 4 wheels, they are still dinky little 245/275s on a car that weighs half a ton more than the car with 320s or whatever. A good driver will be able to squeeze on as much power as the available grip can take, which for the ZR1, and definitely for the other 4wd supercars with proper tires (like the 911 which the GTR claims to beat) is significantly greater.



I've seen a few in person, one on the track, it's hideous. I'd probably find it cool if I was a kid - it reminds me of those crazy Japanese robot cartoons I used to watch when I was a kid, I think it was called Macross. I like what Grassroots said about this car - the people who like it can't afford it and those who can afford it will not likely pay so much money for a car that's this noisy and cheap inside (also it apparently gets horrid fuel economy, even for a car like this), and so ugly to boot.

So lets take an example....if say your average guy (not a racing driver) did a lap of the ring in the GTR and then on the ZR1 do you really think that the ZR1 lap will be faster????
You do realize that GTRs were banned from most motorsport because no1 could keep up with them due to the Attesa right?
Then you have wet laps...and i for one would rather be in the GTR if its rainning.
The problem with GTRs is that you have to drive them differently. Most cars you brake before a corner and go sensibly around untill the exit where you floor it again.
With the GTR you brake as normal but you start accelarating during the corner and let the Attesa do its thing. Hence by the time you hit the exit you have a higher exit speed over rivals.
Ask anyone who has driven a Skyline (r32 - on) and he will tell you this.
Not saying the Vette is not great but you have to admit power delivery to the road is far superior on the GTR.
And lets not get in to the quality discussion as the Vette has never been a quality car and never will either.
And at the end of the day who would buy a ZR1 for 100.000USD when you can get a normal Vette and supercharge it for two thirds of that.
And as for economy do you really think the vette is any better if better at all?
It is not a comparison of who buys GTR or ZR1.
The fact is on the real world GTR is easier to live with , is easier to drive and even if it doesnt win them all it at least gives more expensive cars a good chase.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:36 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigD View Post
Sorry I don't buy any of the arguments about putting power down. I don't care that it drives 4 wheels, they are still dinky little 245/275s on a car that weighs half a ton more than the car with 320s or whatever. A good driver will be able to squeeze on as much power as the available grip can take, which for the ZR1, and definitely for the other 4wd supercars with proper tires (like the 911 which the GTR claims to beat) is significantly greater.



I've seen a few in person, one on the track, it's hideous. I'd probably find it cool if I was a kid - it reminds me of those crazy Japanese robot cartoons I used to watch when I was a kid, I think it was called Macross. I like what Grassroots said about this car - the people who like it can't afford it and those who can afford it will not likely pay so much money for a car that's this noisy and cheap inside (also it apparently gets horrid fuel economy, even for a car like this), and so ugly to boot.
Proper tires??? Dude. im sorry but tires on GT-R are Potenza RE070R which are great.

tires are Tire Size (front): 255f/285r, well i'm not going to argue with you usually its pointless ( so many threads about it on 6speed.com), but you have to learn about the car more, I did and i can see how it is achievable even with so much weight. There's many factors which people dont see in GT-R, its amazingly balanced car one of the 1st i think to have gearbox in the back of a car.


And Zr1 is light and on top of that it has HUGE power, so light car and Huge power you will spin it out of the corners even with the huge 335 tires, with 604ft of trq that will spin even 375s probably...

Anyway its not about which is better. Both were designed to do its own thing. Both are great cars, but Personally GT-R has so much engineering in it, that if you dont know about the car it does looks suspicious! I dont remember which documentary i saw on GT-R but its on the you tube and it does make lots of sense.

One more thing is DSG there's almost no disruption of power delivery due to the very fast shifts!
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:39 PM   #21
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here f1 driver tests it out listen to what he says

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Old 06-22-2009, 01:54 PM   #22
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One more thing. As the ZR1 is the top of the range Vette it needs to be compared with the Spec V.
Here are some numbers from Edmunds.com on the Spec V:
Spec-V 0-60 3.2, 1/4 mile 11.0, skidpad 1.16G, Slalom 74.7MPH
ZR1 0-60 3.8, 1/4 mile 11.5, skidpad 1.06G,Slalom 74.7MPH.

Funny that such a heavy car can meat or better the Vettes values although the Vette is lighter and more powerfull and you see this at the 1/4 mile time where i bet the Vette has a ridiculous exit speed and the GTR wins on 60foot times !!!! I wonder why HINT HINT...ATTESA
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMG_POWER View Post
Proper tires??? Dude. im sorry but tires on GT-R are Potenza RE070R which are great.

tires are Tire Size (front): 255f/285r, well i'm not going to argue with you usually its pointless ( so many threads about it on 6speed.com), but you have to learn about the car more, I did and i can see how it is achievable even with so much weight. There's many factors which people dont see in GT-R, its amazingly balanced car one of the 1st i think to have gearbox in the back of a car. !

Its simple the Vette traction is by two tyres and the GTR is by four.
Hence the total tyre width in contact with the tarmac to push the car forward is as follows:
VETTE 2 x 285=570 or even say 325 width: 2x325 =650
GTR is 4 x (lets say 255)255= 1020
GTR WINS!



Quote:
Originally Posted by AMG_POWER View Post
Anyway its not about which is better. Both were designed to do its own thing. Both are great cars, but Personally GT-R has so much engineering in it, that if you dont know about the car it does looks suspicious! I dont remember which documentary i saw on GT-R but its on the you tube and it does make lots of sense.
Couldnt agree more!!!!
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:07 PM   #24
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Since a picture is a 1000 words check this pic out!!!!
As posted from a German magazine (Autobild Sportscars) and using same type of tyres!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg zr1vs GTR.jpg (80.6 KB, 95 views)
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:24 PM   #25
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One is a Technological Marvel ie Fridge on wheels,
and the other is brute, old school power that requires proper driving.

They both have their pro's and cons, however the GTR is too damn ****ing ugly.
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:29 PM   #26
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how did it get owned? it's not even on the list
Z06 @ 1.22 .. not ZR1 thou
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:54 PM   #27
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The key word in this battle is averages.
Peak power sells cars, high average power wins races.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:04 PM   #28
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Z06 @ 1.22 .. not ZR1 thou

I know, I can read, I was referring to europrince's post, he's sayingthat the ZR1 got owned when it's not even on the list.
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Old 06-22-2009, 03:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Sorry I don't buy any of the arguments about putting power down. I don't care that it drives 4 wheels, they are still dinky little 245/275s on a car that weighs half a ton more than the car with 320s or whatever. A good driver will be able to squeeze on as much power as the available grip can take, which for the ZR1, and definitely for the other 4wd supercars with proper tires (like the 911 which the GTR claims to beat) is significantly greater.
But that's just it.... you don't need to buy it... it's already been sold.

This is what I don't get about this whole situation.... this car has been showing up its competitors left right and center, but no one wants to admit it. They call out "conspiracy". But the proof is in the pudding. The GT-R's track dominence isn't myth, it's proven fact. It's just that people approach the car with a conventional technological mindset. It's too easy to dismiss the technology because no one else did it the same way, so it can't stand for much.... but again, the results are right in front of our eyes.

The traction issue may boggle your mind, but look at it from this standpoint. The Vette needs 320s to even make the power usable for such a light car. It would become a nightmare if you went smaller, the car wouldn't be able to hold the road. If the car had that much traction, you'd be able to get on the power earlier, and more of it, but if you do that coming out of a corner your back end will give out. The very fact that the GT-R can take more throttle much sooner goes to show that it's obviously winning in the traction department.

Quote:
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One is a Technological Marvel ie Fridge on wheels,
and the other is brute, old school power that requires proper driving.

They both have their pro's and cons, however the GTR is too damn ****ing ugly.
Remember though.... the thread title is "Why GT-R is so fast", not "Why GT-R is so gorgeous". It's may be a super fridge on wheels, with a built in ice dispensor and multi-temperature vegetable bins, but it gets the job done around the track.

I don't want to go to fridge school to learn how to properly set the temperature dial... I just want to keep my chicken fresh.
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