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Old 03-03-2003, 02:34 AM   #31
Autotechnica
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Quote:
Originally posted by E46_lover
randy's friend got a full JUN B16, its very fast (i've been in it) and i almost shit my pants...but i doubt its reliable...think about it...we just had like a 4way on MSN, which was crazy..so let me post it here

as darkrider said, NA supra, TT supra..both are as reliable..its just the turbo that isnt lasting forever, after 100+ km u gotta change it
Obviously the turbo puts more stress on the engine. After a few years of driving it should be obvious which would need the engine rebuild sooner. There's a reason why your compression has to be fairly good inorder to run a turbo in your car.

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Old 03-03-2003, 02:35 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Autotechnica
Obviously the turbo puts more stress on the engine. After a few years of driving it should be obvious which would need the engine rebuild sooner. There's a reason why your compression has to be fairly good inorder to run a turbo in your car.

Bryan
exactly, and toyota has made the compression on that motor really good for reliablity!! why do u think that motor can take up to 600hp stock?

theres a daily driven 600hp stock internal supra in texas...he hasnt had ANY problems
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Old 03-03-2003, 02:36 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by E46_lover
exactly, and toyota has made the compression on that motor really good for reliablity!! why do u think that motor can take up to 600hp stock?

theres a daily driven 600hp stock internal supra in texas...he hasnt had ANY problems
Yeah but you were asking a general question though, and generally speaking N/A is more reliable. I mean there are so many factors and it's very difficult to compare. It could also depend on your driving style and how often you push the turbo to the limits, how the turbo is designed to work, etc...

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Old 03-03-2003, 02:55 AM   #34
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BRYAN, your my MAN for this BATTLE, and you KNOW WE WON!
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Old 03-03-2003, 03:04 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by SOLDOMATIC 325i
BRYAN, your my MAN for this BATTLE, and you KNOW WE WON!
just let jon think that he BEAT US, just this time!!
GIVE IT TO HIM!!!


Actually I'm very half assed when it comes to FI, but I know it's common knowledge that everyone knows all motor is more reliable than FI, maybe you could add something?

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Old 03-03-2003, 03:24 AM   #36
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Ok I am going to chime in again:

Finding comparable FI and N/A engines is not exactly jusitfiable.

An N/A motor is built differently to be reliable than a F/I motor to be reliable.

I want to ask one simple question:

If forced induction was not as reliable as N/A, why would huge auto companies use F/I for their cars?

The answer is that with current technology, an F/I motor can last just as long as an N/A motor given comparable variables.
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Old 03-03-2003, 12:31 PM   #37
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n/a is definately more reliable (unless you bored the cylinder walls too thin =), but forced induction gets bigger results for less money.
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Old 03-03-2003, 01:06 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by moerom
Ok I am going to chime in again:

Finding comparable FI and N/A engines is not exactly jusitfiable.

An N/A motor is built differently to be reliable than a F/I motor to be reliable.

I want to ask one simple question:

If forced induction was not as reliable as N/A, why would huge auto companies use F/I for their cars?

The answer is that with current technology, an F/I motor can last just as long as an N/A motor given comparable variables.
Well for one, it's cheaper and easier for the automakers to force-feed their engines than developing new engines to keep up in the ever increasing HP wars.

That being said, there are a number of things to consider in the F/I vs N/A argument.

F/I *can* be just as reliable as a N/A motor, provided it's factory built. Nearly EVERY aftermarket supercharged / turbo-charged motor is going to be under greater strain than a N/A motor, or a factory built forced air motor. The biggest reason behind this comes down to the simple engineering dollars spent on making the car reliable (for at least 100,000 km anyway) while under warranty. With a factory build F/I motor, they've looked at all the underhood cooling requirements, airflow etc, etc, and have the resources to move / relocate equipment easily to make it the best it can be. With the aftermarket it's much tougher to do this, without spending significant (often making the investment poor) $$$$.

Let's also look at what the requirements for the motor are. If it's an engine that you're planning on running on the track regularly. First of all, a N/A engine provides more linear throttle response, which makes the car easier and smoother to drive, and doesn't have the overly boosted nature a F/I car does (especially mid-corner).

Also, on the track, you're spending most of your time north of 4,000 RPM, which means you're generating significantly more heat, and putting more strain on the engine overall. It's easier for a N/A motor to handle this, though a factory designed and built unit can be pretty close.

Sure, F/I can be cheap HP, and it's one of the reasons why factory's do it for themselves. It's cheaper for force-feed an existing engine than it is to build a new, more powerful engine from the ground up.

Same thing goes for aftermarket kits. Much cheaper to drop a turbo on to a 3.2L M3 engine than it is to build an engine which puts out 400+ HP N/A.

If all you want to do is rip around the streets with it, then F/I can be every bit as reliable as N/A.

On the racetrack, it's a different story.

It's best to know what your intentions are first, and go from there.


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Old 03-03-2003, 01:42 PM   #39
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Porsche has been using F/I all it's life in racing, had no problems with it, infact promote it in every way. Compare a Porsche twin turbo 3.6L with a 400HP 5.7L LS1 motor. I bet that's harder to knit-pick, both have similar HP, similar torque, very reliable, and my money is on the smaller (and much lighter) F/I motor for fuel consumption, tunability and weight distribution effects on chassis dynamics.

You can't compare my 3.2L supercharged motor to anything.... it was never designed to accept boost, and with the wrong tuning... it blew up.
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Old 03-03-2003, 06:15 PM   #40
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How come honda engines seem to handle F/I better than BMW engines ?
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Old 03-03-2003, 06:26 PM   #41
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Pat, thanks for the good info..but we are just comparing street driving i guess? like everyday reliablity which would last longer...

lets compare thE MKIV supra..they have NA and FI version, the only thing that wont last the whole engine span is the turbo right? because the thing spins at a lot higher RPM than the motor ever will (any motor for that matter), i heard turbo's spin at 20 000-5000RPM? is that true? if it is then obviously it wont last long? i still beleive a stock supra turbo will last as long as an NA supra giving the appropriate care
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Old 03-03-2003, 09:04 PM   #42
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Well don't quote me 100%, but I personally think, in terms of FI, if you've got a reputable aftermarket FI system, you should be fine.

But this includes, tuning it after you install the kit to make sure that it runs properly, i.e. dyno, ensuring that you're AFR's are alright and no or minimal signs of denotation/knocking. Even if the company claims that their kit runs fine with the software they provided, it's still better to double check!

Not only that, but you should make sure that you're running the proper amount of octane gas for the amount of boost application. I noticed that on the AA turbo'ed cars, if you run higher boost levels, it's better than you run Race gas, but if you're running low-mid boost levels then something like 93 octane will be fine.

If you're pushing high boost levels (i.e. in some applications not idea to run 93 octane) and running only 93 octane all the time, then in the long run, say good bye to your engine.
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Old 03-03-2003, 09:32 PM   #43
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I think Randy hit the nail on the head.

"tunability"

Boost is adjustable. You can't change NA output as drastically with the turn of a knob like you can with forced induction. This is a huge advantage during a race. If FI was best... all engines would have it (sorry Moe).

If reliability was the only factor we would all drive single cylinder engines. Fewer parts. Both Occam and Murphy agree on this point. (What the hell do they know about motors anyway?). My $0.02
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Old 03-03-2003, 09:52 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by ROB89M3
How come honda engines seem to handle F/I better than BMW engines ?
They do???
Try boost it up to bar 1 and see how it's going to handle it.
It depends on the material inside the engine and design, then compression ratios etc etc.....
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Old 03-03-2003, 09:55 PM   #45
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Quote:
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I If FI was best... all engines would have it (sorry Moe).

F1 banned F/I long time ago.....it stopped when Honduh designed a 1000hp engine...
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