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Old 03-10-2009, 04:14 PM   #31
TNation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
More shit i can disagree with you on. You know who turned me off of believing in torture? One of my parents friends, ex-CIA operative from the cold war era.

You want to know why he (and, admittedly, I, now that i'm convinced) believe tortue is NOT necessary and should actually be avoided?

Because the people you're torturing know what you want to hear. And for the most part, they're not stupid. That means, that they are very likely to give you mis-information, even if they know the truth. Although the truth may eventually come out, you'll have so much mis-information to sift through that it wont be practical as a means of finding intelligence. Also, you're prone to mis-information, false confessions and so forth of people who are past their breaking point, and will say anything.

Agressive interrogation techniques are fine IMO. Even physical intimidation at times i'm sure is prudent. But the kind of shit the US government is doing is not going to lead to any intel, its just gonna make us feel better through our sadistic nature to see our enemies suffer. (And, for the record. **** them. Let them suffer. However, lets not dilude ourselves into believing we will gain some sort of intel out of it.
hey fair enough, I actually see your point. I'm all for aggressive torture as well, waterboarding even. I can see why you think torture is bad, it gives fake intelligence. That all made good sense. But even if you're aggressively interrogating someone, won't they give bad intel? How's that any different from torture? it's going to be the same either way. I think it comes down to whether or not you can see they will give their life up for your cause, and no matter what, some terrorists will face any type of pain for it.

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Iphone??? or commodore 68 CPU??
HAHAHAHAHA
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:14 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by TNation View Post
I'm good thanks. No need to drive a 318is to 'fit in' douche
if i suddenly buy a BMW I have an opinion? stfu.



I find it funny everyone here that says the Geneva Convention should be read and followed, when most of the world doesn't abide by it (the Middle East avoids it all cost anyways). And yet even funnier is the people in here who were saying 'put someone in jail for stealing a chocolate bar! use the death penalty on murder! I quote "he is a ****ing peice of shit I would stomp on his 16 year old nuts and **** up his face!! coward mother****er!" and everyone was piling on that jail sentences should be longer. And
You saw that video of the kid beating the crap out of the bus driver?
HEY MAGNUS:
http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/show...2&postcount=35
What is that? Torture? Watch your mouth, you hypocrite.
That bus driver incident is nothing compared to what the guard's face on a daily basis by prisoner's there, facing abuse is a huge part of serving as a guard there. And the terrorists that are put into the cells have killed people, not beaten on one innocent driver, but have killed innocent people, blinded by their extremist beliefs. Change of mind a little here, everyone?
But outside of that, the detainees at Gitmo have been treated humanely, the military says and external journalists have agreed (the Factor and even msnbc have agreed). They have access to the International Red Cross and civilian lawyers. Many live in air conditioned cells. The average detainee has gained 18 pounds since entering Gitmo. And the USA spends three times as much on their food as on military food. All prayer times are respected and not interrupted, and all detainees get a remarkable 15 minutes for Koran study without interruptions per day. Here's a couple questions for you than..

First, if you caught bin Laden, how do you expect him to give up relevant information about terrorist training activities/camps/funding allocations? Asking him 'hey Osama, want to tell me where to find more of your operations?' isn't going to work. Diplomacy doesn't work with anyone that is an extremist, fanatics aren't going to change their mind because they are talked into it. I don't think you understand the bitter hate these extremists have of the West and our culture.

Second, where do you keep someone like him, and the 9/11 terrorists, and the terrorists we host in Guantanamo Bay? But where do we send these people? They'd be executed inside civilian prisons. And why shift them to a military prison inside the USA? There's no reason to do that. So at this point, 10 detainees have been charged with war crimes. More than 300 are deemed dangerous to the USA. And about 140 have been designated for release, but few countries want to take them. Two hundred and seventy nine Gitmo prisoners have already been set free. Few of them went on to commit murder. For example, the Gitmo jihadists blew up a Marriott hotel in Pakistan shortly after the USA repatriated him back to that country.
Third, I'm not in this to 'fight' or because I'm 'bored.' I see hypocrisy 5 feet deep. I want to see your response to my points, all are valid points.
What are you retarded?
First of all there are solid evidence this boy did what he did!
Secondly torture to get a confession is different to torture as punishment!
Thirdly...look through the pages...i pressume you believe in democracy....most people are telling you you are wrong and your remarks are biased and stupid. According to the first rule of democracy the opinion of the mass is what counts....make your own conclusion!

And by the way...my cousin was also deemed dangerous for the USA and was banned from endering. Do you know why?
Cause when he filled the report on the plane he jokingly wrote he is a terrorist!
There goes the efficiency of that system....and i wont even go to the thousands of people who cant fly there cause their name is similar or same as some of the so called terrorists..or even to the people wrongfully accused and send to Guantanamo simply cause they looked or talked funny and had the "wrong" religion.

Wake up....no1 is after America and even they admit they never admit their mistakes (Hirosima,Vietnam, Iraq, etc.)

Oooh and one more thing...i am not the one who needs to watch his mouth in here. You are...cause all this BS you write is only bound to get you in trouble in more ways than you can think.
And calling me hypocrite when all you do is run in circles with your proofs is stupid. You need to be able to back up your comments and not try and act like G.W.Bush who incase you never noticed is going down as the worst politician in American history...yet you back up (in your words) his political views!
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Last edited by magnus; 03-10-2009 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:14 PM   #33
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Okay guys.... I've figured it out. It's so simple, I don't know why it didn't occur to me before. Let's try something new....

It's called, "Ignore him and he'll go away."

If we all simply agree to stop posting in any threads of this nature started by TNation, he might tire of it and stop. After all, he can't come up with brilliant rebuttals if no one gives him anything to rebut.

By all means, let him carry on his 318is dreaming, playa lyfe lovin' ways in other threads, but if he starts anymore of this political shit, ignore it. It'll die a quick death and disappear into page 2 before you know it.

I say again..... ignore him, and he will go away. Let's begin.

/thread
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:15 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
More shit i can disagree with you on. You know who turned me off of believing in torture? One of my parents friends, ex-CIA operative from the cold war era.

You want to know why he (and, admittedly, I, now that i'm convinced) believe tortue is NOT necessary and should actually be avoided?

Because the people you're torturing know what you want to hear. And for the most part, they're not stupid. That means, that they are very likely to give you mis-information, even if they know the truth. Although the truth may eventually come out, you'll have so much mis-information to sift through that it wont be practical as a means of finding intelligence. Also, you're prone to mis-information, false confessions and so forth of people who are past their breaking point, and will say anything.

Agressive interrogation techniques are fine IMO. Even physical intimidation at times i'm sure is prudent. But the kind of shit the US government is doing is not going to lead to any intel, its just gonna make us feel better through our sadistic nature to see our enemies suffer. (And, for the record. **** them. Let them suffer. However, lets not dilude ourselves into believing we will gain some sort of intel out of it.
http://www.psychology.iastate.edu/~g...TICMONTHLY.htm

i know its based on children.. but intresting read. what if under constant interrogation you admit to a crime you didnt commit??
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:16 PM   #35
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^^got coles notes dude?

That's my point. Torture is unreliable because it delivers too many false positives (confessions from not guilty people)

TNation -> i agree man, very thin line. I'm not an expert, and i dont know what the best way of going about it is. I would likely try to correlate the intel you get from the interrogation to intel recieved from other sources, and try to judge on a per session basis how honest the person is being. However, this too will lead to innaccurate generalizations, and is dependant on the interogator having background intel on their subject.
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:17 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by magnus View Post
What are you retarded?
First of all there are solid evidence this boy did what he did!
Secondly torture to get a confession is different to torture as punishment!
Thirdly...look through the pages...i pressume you believe in democracy....most people are telling you you are wrong and your remarks are biased and stupid. According to the first rule of democracy the opinion of the mass is what counts....make your own conclusion!
people here disagree with me. Not many people in my classes, in my debate clubs, other places. It's a democracy, I respect your opinion the same as mine.
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:26 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNation View Post
people here disagree with me. Not many people in my classes, in my debate clubs, other places. It's a democracy, I respect your opinion the same as mine.
At what point exactly you respected my opinion by calling me a hypocrite?
Please elaborate!!!
Or maybe i should do some Guantanamo style interogation on you to find out?
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"Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
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they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever"
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:26 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by fel View Post
okay guys.... I've figured it out. It's so simple, i don't know why it didn't occur to me before. Let's try something new....

It's called, "ignore him and he'll go away."

if we all simply agree to stop posting in any threads of this nature started by tnation, he might tire of it and stop. After all, he can't come up with brilliant rebuttals if no one gives him anything to rebut.

By all means, let him carry on his 318is dreaming, playa lyfe lovin' ways in other threads, but if he starts anymore of this political shit, ignore it. It'll die a quick death and disappear into page 2 before you know it.

I say again..... Ignore him, and he will go away. Let's begin.

/thread
++++++++12124235556887890755467423562346
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"Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever"
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:44 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by magnus View Post
At what point exactly you respected my opinion by calling me a hypocrite?
Please elaborate!!!
Or maybe i should do some Guantanamo style interogation on you to find out?
here's why. You said "That boy disserves to get gang rapped in prison.
Whatever the reason he is like that we can not change it.
If he was a dog and was trainned to kill the law would put him down.
I say do the same for lil pricks like that....he is bound to cause shit all his life!
And yes i value his life as much as a dogs if not lower! Scum like this disserve everything they get!
If that woman was related to me in anyway i would hunt that shit down and give him a taste of his own recipe, dont give a shit if he is under 18 or not!"

And than you say you don't believe in torture? hypocrite! I mean I respect your belief that we shouldn't torture. But when you knowingly would engage in it yourself.. I draw the line. There's proof of terrorists committing acts of terror, and yet you still believe they're not all guilty? Most countries are glad to get rid of these guys and DON'T want them back!
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:48 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fel View Post
Okay guys.... I've figured it out. It's so simple, I don't know why it didn't occur to me before. Let's try something new....

It's called, "Ignore him and he'll go away."

If we all simply agree to stop posting in any threads of this nature started by TNation, he might tire of it and stop. After all, he can't come up with brilliant rebuttals if no one gives him anything to rebut.

By all means, let him carry on his 318is dreaming, playa lyfe lovin' ways in other threads, but if he starts anymore of this political shit, ignore it. It'll die a quick death and disappear into page 2 before you know it.

I say again..... ignore him, and he will go away. Let's begin.

/thread

+1
best solution ever
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Yo man, I got $6000 in my bank account, and I could buy any car i want
Ya man with $6000 in the bank, you're really balling arnt ya
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:52 PM   #41
magnus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNation View Post
here's why. You said "That boy disserves to get gang rapped in prison.
Whatever the reason he is like that we can not change it.
If he was a dog and was trainned to kill the law would put him down.
I say do the same for lil pricks like that....he is bound to cause shit all his life!
And yes i value his life as much as a dogs if not lower! Scum like this disserve everything they get!
If that woman was related to me in anyway i would hunt that shit down and give him a taste of his own recipe, dont give a shit if he is under 18 or not!"

And than you say you don't believe in torture? hypocrite! I mean I respect your belief that we shouldn't torture. But when you knowingly would engage in it yourself.. I draw the line. There's proof of terrorists committing acts of terror, and yet you still believe they're not all guilty? Most countries are glad to get rid of these guys and DON'T want them back!
I will follow Fel and his advice and ignore you. The reason i will is cause obviously you read selectively to answers!
I said...there is a difference between torture as punishment and torture as means of getting a confession.
Your proofs that this people are terrorist is what was originaly debated in here. My proof in the case you mentioned are solid!
Even in courts they say: Innocent until proven guilty.
In the case of these men in my eyes (and most peoples eys) there was and still is no proof they did it. And i never said they are all innocent. I said the majority of them are!
And if someone is a hypocrite in here is you...cause you think the policies of the US have worked so far when its obvious they havent and its obvious the word freedom there is hollow!
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"Lo there do I see my father.
Lo there do I see my mother.
Lo there do I see my brothers and my sisters.
Lo there do I see the line of my people back to the beginning.
Lo they do call to me
they bid me take my place among them in the Halls of Valhalla,
where the brave may live forever"
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Old 03-10-2009, 04:54 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnus View Post
++++++++12124235556887890755467423562346
Quote:
Originally Posted by prince1 View Post
+1
best solution ever
Cool guys. Let's begin this.... go post in other threads. Leave him be.

/thread
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Old 03-10-2009, 06:00 PM   #43
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There are other ways of getting information besides hurting people like lie detector tests (not 100% but still) and back in the day CIA & KGB used a truth serum which was something like LSD .. its still considered torture .. or microexpression. All have as much effect as beating someone.

If you put yourself in the shoes of a terrorist caught in Guantanamo. Your situation is this .. your never going to see your family again .. your in prison and dont know when you will go home .. you have nothing to live for or own anything .. you cant trust anyone. What are you going to tell someone thats torturing you?

simple .. anything .. just to make the pain stop

or

**** it .. tell them off .. let them torture you till you die ..
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Old 03-10-2009, 06:08 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNation View Post
people here disagree with me. Not many people in my classes, in my debate clubs, other places. It's a democracy, I respect your opinion the same as mine.
thats actually slightly worrying.

what school teaches you all this right wing radical trollism?

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in WWII they used a very extreme method against the nazi prisoners they wanted intel from
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they treated them humanely & killed them with kindness. fact, story is out there.

also the fbi was actually following a few of the 911 hijackers months prior
they wanted to make arrests but were told from up high NO. story is out there
now go look into the 1st wtc Bombing (truck 90's) gues what? fbi 'ant' terror was in that 1 too!
theres court records they actually Gave the Group the Explosives!
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Old 03-11-2009, 12:22 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fel View Post
Okay guys.... I've figured it out. It's so simple, I don't know why it didn't occur to me before. Let's try something new....

It's called, "Ignore him and he'll go away."

If we all simply agree to stop posting in any threads of this nature started by TNation, he might tire of it and stop. After all, he can't come up with brilliant rebuttals if no one gives him anything to rebut.

By all means, let him carry on his 318is dreaming, playa lyfe lovin' ways in other threads, but if he starts anymore of this political shit, ignore it. It'll die a quick death and disappear into page 2 before you know it.

I say again..... ignore him, and he will go away. Let's begin.

/thread

+1, BUT before i start acting on this solution, i would like to show everyone how Muhammad Ali clearly explains why "low level" intelligence people are not even to be argued with.

lol, watch : 5:18-6:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnz77...eature=related

peace out t-town.
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