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Old 07-24-2008, 09:02 AM   #16
DriveItSideways
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What kind of problems does the piggy back cause?

This is for a non bmw application.

I'll talk to Mark if I ever decide to turbo my 535
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Old 07-24-2008, 09:39 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DriveItSideways View Post
What kind of problems does the piggy back cause?

This is for a non bmw application.

I'll talk to Mark if I ever decide to turbo my 535
The 535i is amazing when turbocharged... I used piggy back SMT6 and SMT7 with both my race car and a friend's 535i turbo.
Well, not as good as a full stand alone but does the job somewhat.
Both these units are for sale.

The problem is that the BMW computer will fight the mods that you are doing because it is trying to adjust for the amount of fuel you are sending. (BMW computer is adaptive). So you need Mark D to make a chip that removes the adaptability of the BMW Computer.

For non BMW application, you will have to learn about the DME.

I am a firm beleiver of the MEgasquirt, once set and tuned... oh my...
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Old 07-24-2008, 11:42 AM   #18
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Anyone have experience with the greddy emanage?
E-Manage isn't that great for boosted applications. Sure you have the option of using a MAP sensor and it does have boost retard settings but it isn't all that great. Basically like all other piggybacks it's tricking the DME into thinking that it's doing something it's not. E-Manage is more for an all motor application where there isn't an insane amount of airflow difference. Thats why a good amount of Honda guys used to use them back when the E-manage blue came out, it has a built in Vtec controller and can control additional injectors (which would work for boosted applications, if it worked well).
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Old 07-24-2008, 11:44 AM   #19
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I am a firm beleiver of the MEgasquirt, once set and tuned... oh my...
Megasquirt is the poor man's stand alone

I saw the trailer was gone from the driveway, I was hoping the 635 was on it and ripping it around the track.
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Old 07-24-2008, 09:06 PM   #20
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The 535i is amazing when turbocharged... I used piggy back SMT6 and SMT7 with both my race car and a friend's 535i turbo.
Well, not as good as a full stand alone but does the job somewhat.
Both these units are for sale.

The problem is that the BMW computer will fight the mods that you are doing because it is trying to adjust for the amount of fuel you are sending. (BMW computer is adaptive). So you need Mark D to make a chip that removes the adaptability of the BMW Computer.

For non BMW application, you will have to learn about the DME.

I am a firm beleiver of the MEgasquirt, once set and tuned... oh my...
Actually, adaptation can be turned back on after tuning. The big problem with a piggyback is that they usually modify the LOAD signal from the AFM or MAF. That load signal, plus the rpm are two inputs into the 3-d maps for timing, so the timing gets adjusted when the porkyback adjusts the load. If anyone was interested in a turbo 535, I'd probably remove the AFM and install a MAP sensor, and tune it to run with that. Alternatively, I could install a MAF on it.
If you are going to Bimmersport's BBQ on Sunday, you can see Tommy D's red stage 3 supercharged 325iS with s52, all the WOT tuning is done, there's a bit more to do on the part throttle fueling. But in runs like a rocket now.

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Old 07-31-2008, 12:54 AM   #21
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People steer away from piggybacks because they rely the the system to do all sorts of crazy things...lol Guys wanting 400+ WHP builds on a piggyback, controlling injectors more than double the factory size, needing timing control well over +/- 10 deg, or cope with aggressive cams and needing idle control and whatnot... Those are not what you want a piggyback to do.

You really have to hear from people who have experience with all sorts of systems on different platforms. I recommend E-manage, both blue or Ultimate for most custom applications if there isn't anything out there for your car.

The secret is to know how to implement the piggyback system and work in parallel with your stock ECU. Anytime you want to make a change that the stock ECU will fight against, you are looking for trouble. The real skill is to wire it and set up the E-manage in a manner that the stock ECU doesn't know it even exists.

Now as to how to do it, it goes well beyond what I can type here on the forums. But I use E-manage on turbocharged and S/C BMW's, Hondas, Toyotas, Volvos, VW's and so forth. Whenever I have friends or customers that b*tch about chip programs, email tunes, or softwares from half the world away which runs like crap, that's when a piggyback becomes a great tool to fine tune the car. Every car/model/year is always different, and often I have to dial in the E-manage with different features enabled/disabled and blind the stock ECU on certain parameters on different year cars; but if there are no simple tuning solution out there, the E-manage is a great system for a low/med boost setup
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Old 07-31-2008, 08:21 AM   #22
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People steer away from piggybacks because they rely the the system to do all sorts of crazy things...lol Guys wanting 400+ WHP builds on a piggyback, controlling injectors more than double the factory size, needing timing control well over +/- 10 deg, or cope with aggressive cams and needing idle control and whatnot... Those are not what you want a piggyback to do.

You really have to hear from people who have experience with all sorts of systems on different platforms. I recommend E-manage, both blue or Ultimate for most custom applications if there isn't anything out there for your car.

The secret is to know how to implement the piggyback system and work in parallel with your stock ECU. Anytime you want to make a change that the stock ECU will fight against, you are looking for trouble. The real skill is to wire it and set up the E-manage in a manner that the stock ECU doesn't know it even exists.

Now as to how to do it, it goes well beyond what I can type here on the forums. But I use E-manage on turbocharged and S/C BMW's, Hondas, Toyotas, Volvos, VW's and so forth. Whenever I have friends or customers that b*tch about chip programs, email tunes, or softwares from half the world away which runs like crap, that's when a piggyback becomes a great tool to fine tune the car. Every car/model/year is always different, and often I have to dial in the E-manage with different features enabled/disabled and blind the stock ECU on certain parameters on different year cars; but if there are no simple tuning solution out there, the E-manage is a great system for a low/med boost setup
I see you tune apexi systems, I might check you out when my apexi neo gets shipped. It will be going into my Pulsar GtiR. Realistically im looking for 300-350whp, which should be easy to get with minor bolts ons (injectors, afm, fuel pump)
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Old 08-06-2008, 11:51 PM   #23
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I recall reading on bimmerforums about 2 differnt guys tryin to run emanage on there s50/s52. From what I remember it was a pain in the ass, and not entirely straightforward including wiring up some resistor boxes to run the coils. If you search you'll probaly find them, I think they even did a write up of how to do it.

If I'm not mistaken one guy ended up finally selling it and going with a tune from nickG and I think the other guy played around with MS for a while after and now runs a tune from Mike McCoy @ TRM. IMO the DME tunes are the best way to go if you just wanna set it and forget it rather than fiddle with the piggybacks forever.
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Old 08-07-2008, 08:56 AM   #24
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piggy backs are a waste of time and money. Stick with a tuned dme or go stand alone.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:56 AM   #25
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How is piggy back a waste?

I dont need a full ems to tune just a few increments. Im not looking for crazy power, maybe an extra 50hp
with supporting mods (upgraded maf, boost increase -5psi higher than stock, fuel pump)

If anything, an ems is a complete waste of time and money in my situation, i will still be using oem turbo/intercooler/ignition (except maf) / injectors.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:02 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by DriveItSideways View Post
How is piggy back a waste?

I dont need a full ems to tune just a few increments. Im not looking for crazy power, maybe an extra 50hp
with supporting mods (upgraded maf, boost increase -5psi higher than stock, fuel pump)

If anything, an ems is a complete waste of time and money in my situation, i will still be using oem turbo/intercooler/ignition (except maf) / injectors.
Seems to me that you're thinking of doing a turbo on an M30, and IMO the wrong way.

There are proven options out there to get you reliable power from the stock DME. Why would you bother with a piggy back unit that will fool the DME into something that is really not happening. Piggy backs modify the signals going to the DME, while you might think that this is a good way of doing things, you clearly don't understand what is REALLY happening inside the ECU at this point and what points on the MAP(s) it is accessing.

Believe me when I tell you that it's not worth it going that route.

There are stand alones that are cheap (like MS) but are well supported within the BMW community. Then there are stock DME chips made for low boost applications that you're planning on running that are tried and tested (like Mark D's or TCD's, etc).

Try to do it (somewhat) right the first time. Forget the piggy back idea.
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:17 PM   #27
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Seems to me that you're thinking of doing a turbo on an M30, and IMO the wrong way.

There are proven options out there to get you reliable power from the stock DME. Why would you bother with a piggy back unit that will fool the DME into something that is really not happening. Piggy backs modify the signals going to the DME, while you might think that this is a good way of doing things, you clearly don't understand what is REALLY happening inside the ECU at this point and what points on the MAP(s) it is accessing.

Believe me when I tell you that it's not worth it going that route.

There are stand alones that are cheap (like MS) but are well supported within the BMW community. Then there are stock DME chips made for low boost applications that you're planning on running that are tried and tested (like Mark D's or TCD's, etc).

Try to do it (somewhat) right the first time. Forget the piggy back idea.

That's right. Piggy backs are for girls. And the TCD chips are developed here in Toronto.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:12 PM   #28
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Seems to me that you're thinking of doing a turbo on an M30, and IMO the wrong way.

There are proven options out there to get you reliable power from the stock DME. Why would you bother with a piggy back unit that will fool the DME into something that is really not happening. Piggy backs modify the signals going to the DME, while you might think that this is a good way of doing things, you clearly don't understand what is REALLY happening inside the ECU at this point and what points on the MAP(s) it is accessing.

Believe me when I tell you that it's not worth it going that route.

There are stand alones that are cheap (like MS) but are well supported within the BMW community. Then there are stock DME chips made for low boost applications that you're planning on running that are tried and tested (like Mark D's or TCD's, etc).

Try to do it (somewhat) right the first time. Forget the piggy back idea.
...
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This is for a non bmw application.

I'll talk to Mark if I ever decide to turbo my 535
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:24 AM   #29
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^^^ well BMW application or not... Piggy backs are not a good way to do ANYTHING.

If you do some research on how they actually work you'd want to stay far away from them.
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Old 08-08-2008, 04:45 PM   #30
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^^^ well BMW application or not... Piggy backs are not a good way to do ANYTHING.

If you do some research on how they actually work you'd want to stay far away from them.

I understand that piggy's fool the ecu into thinking its doing something its not, and I understand that DET is more likely to happen because of this. But what your not realizing is that the adjustments im looking to make are extremely minimal.
If I was supporting turbo upgrades or major enhancements then I would never ever consider a piggy back.
So, I do agree with what your saying but im 100% positive that in my case its not as critical to have standalone when all the parameters will still be in the range of the original mapping.

This is all healthy convo for me, its good to see everyones take on the topic.. ive gotten responses saying that piggyback is the way to go, others say im gonna blow the car up.. I guess time will only tell!

Once I have it installed and tuned I'll check back with a report on what I think. (Apexi Neo is what im getting)

Feel free to keep the comments coming
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