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Old 07-10-2008, 02:15 PM   #16
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go fig.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:19 PM   #17
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BMW in my view has completely lost the plot and given in solely to the needs of the North America market (impressive numbers and little actual driving involvement). The Elise is an ultimate driving machine what BMW makes nowadays is meant mostly for posing. Even the so called new 2002 - 135i is a rather heavy and detached driving machine with no LSD and little soul.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:35 PM   #18
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BMW in my view has completely lost the plot and given in solely to the needs of the North America market (impressive numbers and little actual driving involvement). The Elise is an ultimate driving machine what BMW makes nowadays is meant mostly for posing. Even the so called new 2002 - 135i is a rather heavy and detached driving machine with no LSD and little soul.
So are you saying that the e92 m3 is not a drivers car?
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:48 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Chris_Bangle View Post
BMW in my view has completely lost the plot and given in solely to the needs of the North America market (impressive numbers and little actual driving involvement). The Elise is an ultimate driving machine what BMW makes nowadays is meant mostly for posing. Even the so called new 2002 - 135i is a rather heavy and detached driving machine with no LSD and little soul.
I wouldn't say given into the North American market, because 1) The BMW SMG system is much prefered by europeans (influenced by F1), 2) the 1 series, which is rather heavy, was designed for europeans who absolutely love diesel hatches (which is what it was originally designed as)

Given in to the masses I would believe is a better statement.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:08 PM   #20
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Anyone that frequents the track will agree that N/A is always best.
I think you're making a wide generalization Randy.

There are enough boosted race cars out there, in professional and in amateur races. And they do just fine (if not sometimes better) then the N/A cars.

Given it'll give the car completely different character/dynamics. BMW going FI for their ///M cars isn't necessarily a bad thing. Especially with todays (turbo) technology being able to make lag almost non existent.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:09 PM   #21
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I don't know what you mean by a driver's car. Is mustang a driver's car? It is a nice car but it is not a purist car nor is it 'an ultimate driving machine'. It weight as much as a
E39 M5 and although I have not driven one, given most of the European reviews is not that involving to drive. I was in a BMW dealership on Tuesday driving the 135i, I looked at the M3 and it had side rear shades, pretty much tells you why the car weights as much as it does .
In some sense this progression has been inevitable, it is just a shame it has happened, I am not advocating a return to the "glory days" as it is impossible.
I like to track my cars (especially, given that in North America there are virtually no proper roads to drive them on / low speed limits) and the only car that I was remotely interested in was the 135i which I found quite uninvolving. Funny thing is, when I was growing up, I always wanted a Bimmer, now there isnít a single car (maybe outside of the M coupe with some suspension work done by TC Kline) that I actually want.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:43 PM   #22
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BTW, look what I just found.

E92 CSL Spyshots?


Those pics are from last year.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:45 PM   #23
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BMW in my view has completely lost the plot and given in solely to the needs of the North America market (impressive numbers and little actual driving involvement). The Elise is an ultimate driving machine what BMW makes nowadays is meant mostly for posing. Even the so called new 2002 - 135i is a rather heavy and detached driving machine with no LSD and little soul.
Your posts and user name don't go together LOL.
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Old 07-10-2008, 04:02 PM   #24
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:16 PM   #25
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Although i agree that turbo's can be used on race cars, an M5 is not a race car. Or even a track car, really. Like was said already, its a car for old men with too much money. (target market) These people will not want to deal with the reliability issues of a turbo, unless its rediculously reliable. Although the 335 has its problems, it seems relatively reliable thus far. If that trend were to continue with bmw turbo motors, the new m5 could be successful, but there's still lots of power to be made NA.

I really think that bmw pretty much wants their m5's to be able to keep up with (sorta) on the highway with the same generation AMG's, and same generation vettes. I really doubt bmw will put a turbo on a M5 and try to make it a 650hp+ 12 second car unless other car manufacturers do (or intend on) raising the performance of their cars in a similar way.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:51 PM   #26
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why do they need a new M5 in 2011??? This seems like an awfully short time that the current generation is out... I've just started to get used to the e60 design. Whenever I see it on the street it's still very much futuristic.

BMW keeps its models 7 years. The e60 came out for 2004 and will be replaced for 2011. The M5 will probably come out a year or two later.
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Old 07-10-2008, 07:15 PM   #27
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Although i agree that turbo's can be used on race cars, an M5 is not a race car. Or even a track car, really. Like was said already, its a car for old men with too much money. (target market) These people will not want to deal with the reliability issues of a turbo, unless its rediculously reliable. Although the 335 has its problems, it seems relatively reliable thus far. If that trend were to continue with bmw turbo motors, the new m5 could be successful, but there's still lots of power to be made NA.

I really think that bmw pretty much wants their m5's to be able to keep up with (sorta) on the highway with the same generation AMG's, and same generation vettes. I really doubt bmw will put a turbo on a M5 and try to make it a 650hp+ 12 second car unless other car manufacturers do (or intend on) raising the performance of their cars in a similar way.
Just because a car is turbo charged doesn't mean it'll be less reliable then a high strung N/A motor.

I'm not up to date w/ the 335's problems... but i'm sure they're not as bad as the E46 M3's problems.
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:32 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Chris_Bangle View Post
BMW in my view has completely lost the plot and given in solely to the needs of the North America market (impressive numbers and little actual driving involvement). The Elise is an ultimate driving machine what BMW makes nowadays is meant mostly for posing. Even the so called new 2002 - 135i is a rather heavy and detached driving machine with no LSD and little soul.
BMW has never built the ultimate driving machine, especially if you're bringing the Elise into your argument. No BMW has ever driven like an Elan or the original Esprit, the 2002 was exactly what the 135i is today - a small family car with sporting intentions. The E30 M3 had heated seats, OBC, sunroof, headlight wipers, the whole nine. It was a loaded up sports sedan, just like every M3 built since.

I think people are getting delusional when they conjure up memories of past BMW cars; the mission hasn't changed at all.
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:37 AM   #29
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I don't know what you mean by a driver's car. Is mustang a driver's car? It is a nice car but it is not a purist car nor is it 'an ultimate driving machine'. It weight as much as a
E39 M5 and although I have not driven one, given most of the European reviews is not that involving to drive. I was in a BMW dealership on Tuesday driving the 135i, I looked at the M3 and it had side rear shades, pretty much tells you why the car weights as much as it does .
In some sense this progression has been inevitable, it is just a shame it has happened, I am not advocating a return to the "glory days" as it is impossible.
I like to track my cars (especially, given that in North America there are virtually no proper roads to drive them on / low speed limits) and the only car that I was remotely interested in was the 135i which I found quite uninvolving. Funny thing is, when I was growing up, I always wanted a Bimmer, now there isnít a single car (maybe outside of the M coupe with some suspension work done by TC Kline) that I actually want.
if the E30 M3 had power steering, then it is not a true drivers machine
the only true driving machine still left today.
are Any type of motor cycles or tractors. those things havnt changed since world war 2
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Old 07-11-2008, 11:50 AM   #30
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BMW claims that what they produce is the 'ultimate driving machine'.The Elise was brought into the argument as a point of reference of what an ultimate driving machine (in terms of involvement is).
I did not drive the 2002 but I doubt the driving experience is as un involving as the 135i (which given the lack of proper cars gets most automotive writers to go gaga). Same goes for the E30 M3 and the new one, if we take both cars in basic trim there is a 400kg weight difference and a big difference in feel.
The mission has changed, as the accountant/marketer has taken over from the ethos of the driver/engineer. Why would the introduce harmful maintenance schedules, uses cheaper materials, stop putting lsd on Ďdriverís carí, etc.
This is not a reflection solely on BMW, not was this anything but an inevitability.
This is all getting a bit of topic. I am sure the next M5 will be welcomed with open arms by it's target market. I personally liked BMW sticking with the high revving NA engines but I am sure that building a turbo engine is allot cheaper and enables better gas milage.
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