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Old 05-08-2008, 01:39 AM   #16
NOTORIOUS VR
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Originally Posted by PedroBMW View Post
Hell no, maybe a $10,000 stand alone like a Motec or bosch motorsports maybe. My TEC3 sucks the big one compared to a factory PCM. If you want a racecar then a standalone is the way to go, for a street car (e36 or newer) than a properly tuned factory box will 100% yield you better driveability, startability, and fuel economy than an AEM, TEC3, Haltech, FAST, etc. etc. I may switch out the TEC3 later to play around in motronic land.
I disagree... All the aftermarket box's you've mentioned can be made to run just as good as the factory ECU's... but it's all about how much time you want to put into it. I've made cars run so well, that you wouldn't have been able to tell that it even has a standalone ECU in the car.

You don't need a $10k or even $3k standalone to do that either. Although I'm not a fan of Electromotive anyway you look at it lol...

You might think this is a gods gift to the aftermarket world, but it really isn't....

As an example, take a look at HPF's kit... they use an AEM to control the motor. They could have gotten someone to make a program for the stock ECU for them, but they didn't.
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Old 05-08-2008, 01:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by ///tyron View Post
Ur not understanding the concept.
No, I do understand it... But perhaps you're not? Since not a lot of info has been released about this software I don't want to say all too much. But what exactly is it that this software will let you change in the ECU... fuel and spark are obvious. What else though? Idle maps? Closed loops maps? etc... There are a TON of maps in a Motronic ECU...

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OBV. standalone is better/effecient etc. But do u think everyone has the cash to fork out 3 grand on tec3?

Also not everyone has the know-how to wire in a standalone.
Why does a standalone have to cost $3k? Let me tell you that is doesn't.

Also, what's with the obsession with Electromotive in the BMW world? It's not exactly a very good system. Their software is horrible and their firmware is even worse.
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Old 05-08-2008, 02:34 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
No, I do understand it... But perhaps you're not? Since not a lot of info has been released about this software I don't want to say all too much. But what exactly is it that this software will let you change in the ECU... fuel and spark are obvious. What else though? Idle maps? Closed loops maps? etc... There are a TON of maps in a Motronic ECU...
.
Apparently everything is changeable according to what Jim has been posting. This software and interface is essentially what he uses for tuneing.
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Old 05-08-2008, 11:33 AM   #19
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That's pretty nice... I'd like to see the software in action myself... Especially if it able to tune Porsche's like it says in the PDF.

I just have seen too many issues with stock ECU's not being able to cope properly with certain setups. So IMO if you have even a somewhat radical build it's best to go with an aftermarket setup.
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Old 05-08-2008, 12:23 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post

Also, what's with the obsession with Electromotive in the BMW world? It's not exactly a very good system. Their software is horrible and their firmware is even worse.
pfff whatever like you;ve ever touched an electormotive system on a bmw

p.s- gimme a call the cars coming out soon, did you say i still needed a serial cable?
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Old 05-08-2008, 04:28 PM   #21
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pfff whatever like you;ve ever touched an electormotive system on a bmw

p.s- gimme a call the cars coming out soon, did you say i still needed a serial cable?
Lol, exactly...

anyways.. yea u still need a cable... let me see if I can get one ready for you.

PM me....
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Old 05-08-2008, 09:40 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR View Post
I disagree... All the aftermarket box's you've mentioned can be made to run just as good as the factory ECU's... but it's all about how much time you want to put into it. I've made cars run so well, that you wouldn't have been able to tell that it even has a standalone ECU in the car.

You don't need a $10k or even $3k standalone to do that either. Although I'm not a fan of Electromotive anyway you look at it lol...

You might think this is a gods gift to the aftermarket world, but it really isn't....

As an example, take a look at HPF's kit... they use an AEM to control the motor. They could have gotten someone to make a program for the stock ECU for them, but they didn't.
I don't mean to be disrepectful at all but this is very far from the truth, I work for an OEM and calibrate factory ECUs all day and I have used standalones. What is expected from a factory ecu is ridiculously more complex than what any stand alone can do. The algorythms and just the shear # of ROMs you have to play with still blows my mind (just so many knobs potential knobs to turn lol,)

Standalones absolutly have their place but to say you can match the driveability, startability, fuel econmy of a modern factory ECU is just ridiculous because there just is not enough control available reardless of how amazingly you calibrate it. This is not to say that they shouldn't be used or that they can't provide good driveability but they CANNOT match what a factory ECU can do in all condtions. The factory ECUs obviously have there limits as well though, if your looking to triple the factory output your definitly approaching them.

The BMW fascination with electromotive is entirely because vic sias makes the plug and play TEC3s or e36, thats it, everybody knows that TEC3s are on the low end as far as standalones go but its a convenience thing. I bought my TEC3r used because I think that $3000 is to steep for what it offers (not much more than Megasquirt or VEMS) but many are willing to fork over that money to not have to tackle the wiring headaches. as far as your comment about HPF, I don't know what their reasoning was for using the AEM piggybacked with the factory ECU but I'm pretty sure they would have used it if they could have (like I said everything has its limits and also it would take a ridiculous amount of reverse engineering to figure out how to properly recalibrate the factory box, that baby is very impressive, and like I said the pure # of parameters would blow your mind).

please don't take any of my comments in a offensive way man, this is just discussion(sometimes its hard to tell how your words are sounding when your typing them). Before doing what I do now, I thought exactly the same as you but once I saw the absolutly nuts level of complexity of what is going on in a factory PCM it totally changed my tune.

EDIT: And to answer your comment that I think that this is gods gift to the BMW tuning world, I dont think this. If this was freeware I would 100% think this would open up tons of opportunities but its not. Last I read (I'll while back I dont know if tis is still true) Conforti was going to have some type of encryption similar to those mp3 sites that would make you pay every time you wanted to create a new flash. Anyone who has ever tuned knows that it is an iterative process, so this would mean that truly getting your car dialed in would quickly get expensive. Maybe somebody will crack his code and release a freeware editor similar to what honda guys do, that would be very sweet, well sweet for everyone else, not for Jim Conforti. Realistically most of the hex addresses for most of the important ROMs are out there now its just a matter of having the time and patience to dig around, many have done it and are making lucrative businesses out of it.
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:00 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by PedroBMW View Post
I don't mean to be disrepectful at all but this is very far from the truth, I work for an OEM and calibrate factory ECUs all day and I have used standalones. What is expected from a factory ecu is ridiculously more complex than what any stand alone can do. The algorythms and just the shear # of ROMs you have to play with still blows my mind (just so many knobs potential knobs to turn lol,)
What exactly are you saying about what I wrote is far from the truth? The driveability part?

Quote:
Standalones absolutly have their place but to say you can match the driveability, startability, fuel econmy of a modern factory ECU is just ridiculous because there just is not enough control available reardless of how amazingly you calibrate it. This is not to say that they shouldn't be used or that they can't provide good driveability but they CANNOT match what a factory ECU can do in all condtions. The factory ECUs obviously have there limits as well though, if your looking to triple the factory output your definitly approaching them.
You CLEARLY haven't spent enough time with some good stand alones if you're saying you can't get a car to run as good as or better then an OEM ECU. Because it IS possible. Just because you've never seen it done, doesn't mean it cannot be done. They absolutely can get better gas mileage, they absolutely can match an OEM ECU in ALL conditions.

Quote:
The BMW fascination with electromotive is entirely because vic sias makes the plug and play TEC3s or e36, thats it, everybody knows that TEC3s are on the low end as far as standalones go but its a convenience thing. I bought my TEC3r used because I think that $3000 is to steep for what it offers (not much more than Megasquirt or VEMS) but many are willing to fork over that money to not have to tackle the wiring headaches. as far as your comment about HPF, I don't know what their reasoning was for using the AEM piggybacked with the factory ECU but I'm pretty sure they would have used it if they could have (like I said everything has its limits and also it would take a ridiculous amount of reverse engineering to figure out how to properly recalibrate the factory box, that baby is very impressive, and like I said the pure # of parameters would blow your mind).
I think you're assuming that I've never seen inside a Motronic ECU before. I know exactly how hard it is to find maps, I know how many maps there can be inside the ecu as well.

And just to clarify, VEMS can do a heck of a lot more then any Electromotive box can that is currently on the market And for much less $$$!

Quote:
please don't take any of my comments in a offensive way man, this is just discussion(sometimes its hard to tell how your words are sounding when your typing them). Before doing what I do now, I thought exactly the same as you but once I saw the absolutly nuts level of complexity of what is going on in a factory PCM it totally changed my tune.
I'm not taking anything to offense. But let me ask you. Do YOU yourself actually make the programming that goes into these ECU's you flash? Or are you just calibrating blank ECU's with pre-made software. I'm going to go with the latter. Not saying you don't have more insight into a OEM ECU then I, but I have seen a chip tuner work on a live (and current model) Motronic ECU, and let me tell you I was very impressed.

What I do think though, is that since you've clearly never seen a stand alone ecu be tuned in such a way that will make the car drive and behave just like stock, you automatically believe that it is just not possible. And I'm going to say it again, you are wrong.

Quote:
EDIT: And to answer your comment that I think that this is gods gift to the BMW tuning world, I dont think this. If this was freeware I would 100% think this would open up tons of opportunities but its not. Last I read (I'll while back I dont know if tis is still true) Conforti was going to have some type of encryption similar to those mp3 sites that would make you pay every time you wanted to create a new flash. Anyone who has ever tuned knows that it is an iterative process, so this would mean that truly getting your car dialed in would quickly get expensive. Maybe somebody will crack his code and release a freeware editor similar to what honda guys do, that would be very sweet, well sweet for everyone else, not for Jim Conforti. Realistically most of the hex addresses for most of the important ROMs are out there now its just a matter of having the time and patience to dig around, many have done it and are making lucrative businesses out of it.
I agree, it's a big step forward in the BMW world... But again, I've seen both sides of this all... Factory ECM tuning ISN'T always the way to go. Believe me. Been there and done that with my customers. For some it's great to be just able to flash their to car what they want. For others, a good stand alone is just that much better.

Take it for what you will. There will always be a place for stand alones. But they're only as good as the person that will program it.
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Old 05-11-2008, 12:42 PM   #24
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What exactly are you saying about what I wrote is far from the truth? The driveability part?
Exactly. Driveability, startability, fuel economy, (go ahead and add emmisions to that if you want as well, I didn't mention this before because I don't think many of us are interested in how well our cars emit as long as we can pass drive clean, but realistically this is the biggest one as well)

Quote:
You CLEARLY haven't spent enough time with some good stand alones if you're saying you can't get a car to run as good as or better then an OEM ECU. Because it IS possible. Just because you've never seen it done, doesn't mean it cannot be done. They absolutely can get better gas mileage, they absolutely can match an OEM ECU in ALL conditions.
There is absolutly NO WAY that a standalone will match a factory ECU in All conditions. The standalones just aren't designed for it, there is not enough logic for this stuff. There is a reason why it takes a few days to tune a standalone and it takes OEM engineers 2+ years to calibrate the factory ECU. There is dozens and dozens of maps. hundreds of tables, hundreds of scalars. All these are there for a reason, they allow the required control necessary to get driveability in all conditions (as well as fuel economy and emmisions).
Lets just takes starts as an example, just starting, no idle, no cold fueling nothing, literally just the actual cranking->start flare. There is 12+ maps, 6-7tables, and a dozen or so constants JUST FOR THIS. YOu don't have that kind of control with any standalone, theres no point for a standalone to need this doesn't need that functionality.

Now I bet your thinking that you don't even need all this stuff..... well OK. Take your standalone vehicle and your factory ECU vehicle, and lets just talk about starts and cold drives again just for the sake of keeping this simple but you can talk about anything. Cold start both of those cars in temperature ranges from -10C -> 30C, now also do this in the spring, summer, fall, and winter (wherever you can hit the temps). Now drive from here to somewhere a bit higher in altitude and try the same thing, After that repeat this doing warm restarts (shut off the car warm and restart it again after half an hour or so while your coolent is still warm). Now do the same thing after letting your car sit with the same old gas in it after storing it for the winter. After you do this you will VERY QUICKLY SEE that the standalone car will not just crank and start and drive badaboom badabing like the factory car will. Yeah chances are you can run the car rich and blow black smoke out the exhaust in the cold to get farely smooth starts and cold drives - tip ins but it just will not work the same in all conditions, theres no way, there is just not enough control with the standalone. Factory ECUs are filled with calibrations for temperature modifiers, baro modifiers, run time modifiers, etc. etc. thats the control I'm talking about (ALL conditions just like you said).

Now a standalone does have alot of control that Factory ECUS don't have like, Nitrous Control, Anti Lag, Launch Controls, etc. etc. plus much more. But like I've been saying all along they are designed for differnt purposes. And for a daily driver, a factory ECU is just a better candidate if possible.

Quote:
I think you're assuming that I've never seen inside a Motronic ECU before. I know exactly how hard it is to find maps, I know how many maps there can be inside the ecu as well.

And just to clarify, VEMS can do a heck of a lot more then any Electromotive box can that is currently on the market And for much less $$$!
I believe you've searche through the HEX looking for the maps, but you haven't seen the functionality that is available by using all of this stuff. Personally I think VEMS is a perfectly good solution for someone looking to use a standalone, I am in no way defending electromotive, just cause I have a TEC3 doen't mean I'm gonna say its amazing when clearly it just does its job and thats it.

Quote:
I'm not taking anything to offense. But let me ask you. Do YOU yourself actually make the programming that goes into these ECU's you flash? Or are you just calibrating blank ECU's with pre-made software. I'm going to go with the latter. Not saying you don't have more insight into a OEM ECU then I, but I have seen a chip tuner work on a live (and current model) Motronic ECU, and let me tell you I was very impressed.
Sorry my friend but you assumed wrong, it is the former. I calibrate within our existing software AND add software algorythms. I am not a programmer, I'm an engineer, we develop the logic and algorythms and then pass that to one of our software writers to punch it in the code (everyone has there job right). The chip tuner you saw was probably playing with 5% of the code that is actually in the ECU. Thats the beauty of it, you don't have to redo the efforts of the original engineers. The aftermarket guys like yourself (and myself if I end up using confortis editor on my ride eventually)and others can just make the necessary fueling, spark, and other minor changes and still keep the great driveability that the original engineers worked so hard to achieve.

Quote:
What I do think though, is that since you've clearly never seen a stand alone ecu be tuned in such a way that will make the car drive and behave just like stock, you automatically believe that it is just not possible. And I'm going to say it again, you are wrong.
Your right I havent seen it, but like I described above I have reasons to have my opinion. There is just a lot more to Engine managment than base spark, base fueling, and transient fuel.

Quote:
I agree, it's a big step forward in the BMW world... But again, I've seen both sides of this all... Factory ECM tuning ISN'T always the way to go. Believe me. Been there and done that with my customers. For some it's great to be just able to flash their to car what they want. For others, a good stand alone is just that much better.

Take it for what you will. There will always be a place for stand alones. But they're only as good as the person that will program it.
I agree with you 100%, using a facotry ECU isn't always the way to go, and using a standalone isnt always the way to go. Both have there place. I will stick to my opinion that for most BMW FI folks that want moderate power goals (500whp or less) without having to sacrifice anything, the factory DME is the way to go though, hands down.
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Old 05-11-2008, 12:49 PM   #25
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Oh yeah and just to add. If you look at the domestic guys using the SCT stuff to recalibrate their factors PCMs, its pretty impressive the amount of parameters that those little devices actually give you access too. This is on new vehicles with electornic throttle control, model based engne management and everything (this is nothing compared to what we use to calibrate ECUS @ the OEMs but I think thats obvious, just the tools we use to calibrate one vehicle @ an OEM costs alot more than even the most expensive standlone ever).

In my opinion though, what else could you ask for in the aftermarket, if we had an aftermarket tool like the SCT in the BMW world, it would be absolutly retarted in my opinion to yank out everything and put in a standlone for anything less than a racecar or a very crazy build.
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Old 05-12-2008, 01:10 AM   #26
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Exactly. Driveability, startability, fuel economy, (go ahead and add emmisions to that if you want as well, I didn't mention this before because I don't think many of us are interested in how well our cars emit as long as we can pass drive clean, but realistically this is the biggest one as well)
You are flat out wrong. Period.

Quote:
There is absolutely NO WAY that a standalone will match a factory ECU in All conditions. The standalones just aren't designed for it
I'm not even going to bother with explaining it to you. Strange that someone with as much claimed experience with ECU's doesn't know the first thing about the aftermarket.

Standalones will match a factory ECU very easily.

Quote:
, there is not enough logic for this stuff. There is a reason why it takes a few days to tune a standalone and it takes OEM engineers 2+ years to calibrate the factory ECU.
This is where you go wrong. You think it only takes a few hours to a few days to tune a stand alone ECU. While if the only thing you're interested in is max power then yes. But tuning an ECU for driveability alone can take a few months to get ever last bit of it perfect. Never mind cold starts, which take much longer.

So this right here proves to me that you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to stand alone ECU's.

What ever made you think that these ECU's were only there to be able to run that big turbo setup, radical cams, etc, etc clearly clouded your judgment.


Quote:
Lets just takes starts as an example, just starting, no idle, no cold fueling nothing, literally just the actual cranking->start flare. There is 12+ maps, 6-7tables, and a dozen or so constants JUST FOR THIS. YOu don't have that kind of control with any standalone, theres no point for a standalone to need this doesn't need that functionality.

Now I bet your thinking that you don't even need all this stuff..... well OK. Take your standalone vehicle and your factory ECU vehicle, and lets just talk about starts and cold drives again just for the sake of keeping this simple but you can talk about anything. Cold start both of those cars in temperature ranges from -10C -> 30C, now also do this in the spring, summer, fall, and winter (wherever you can hit the temps). Now drive from here to somewhere a bit higher in altitude and try the same thing, After that repeat this doing warm restarts (shut off the car warm and restart it again after half an hour or so while your coolent is still warm).
All of this what you just described above works just fine on a stand alone ECU that has been tuned properly. That's all all you need to know.


Quote:
Now do the same thing after letting your car sit with the same old gas in it after storing it for the winter. After you do this you will VERY QUICKLY SEE that the standalone car will not just crank and start and drive badaboom badabing like the factory car will. Yeah chances are you can run the car rich and blow black smoke out the exhaust in the cold to get farely smooth starts and cold drives - tip ins but it just will not work the same in all conditions, theres no way, there is just not enough control with the standalone. Factory ECUs are filled with calibrations for temperature modifiers, baro modifiers, run time modifiers, etc. etc. thats the control I'm talking about (ALL conditions just like you said).
It does work. You're making this much to complicated. Engineers like yourself always seem to think they know it all. Too bad, if you actually took the time to learn something about it you'd know that your car equipped with TEC3 can run just as it did once upon a time with the stock ECU and maybe do something about it. Because it sounds to me that you're bitter that your TEC3'd car doesn't run well at all.

I must say that it's not the ECU's fault. It was the one who programmed it.


So I totally give up. You believe what you want.

I've calibrated cars myself that run perfectly no matter what the temps. Cold start, warm start, afterstart/run, everything works just fine. So you might as well give up in trying to convince me that it's not possible, I already know that it is possible.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:39 PM   #27
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You are flat out wrong. Period.

I'm not even going to bother with explaining it to you. Strange that someone with as much claimed experience with ECU's doesn't know the first thing about the aftermarket.

Standalones will match a factory ECU very easily.
Dude, I think you should chill a little bit, this is a discussion not an argument. I'm no BSing you at all, I'm not talking any crap here I'm simply looking at things for what they are discussing the capabilities of each box. I haven't told you any lies I haven't inflated anything, I've told you what my experience is with aftermarket Engine controllers and what it is with OEM PCMs. I'm not sure what "claimed experience" is suppose to imply. I don't want to argue because I am not trying to be offensive here just trying to discuss.

The aftermarket boxes that I have seen are overly simplistic to live up to the expectations of a factory PCM as far as driveability, fuel economy, and emmissions. I'm totally open to here about the capabilities ofone of the great aftermarket boxes you've been using, enlighten me man, thats what discussion is all about.

Quote:
This is where you go wrong. You think it only takes a few hours to a few days to tune a stand alone ECU. While if the only thing you're interested in is max power then yes. But tuning an ECU for driveability alone can take a few months to get ever last bit of it perfect. Never mind cold starts, which take much longer.
This isn't where I go wrong. Trust me I know all about how long it takes to dial in a vehicle. Its truly never done, it can alway get better, every trip you take theres always something you wanna tweak, that is the name of the game. The problem is this, you can only "turn the knobs" that you have available to you. Standalones just don't have as many knobs as a an OEM PCM. For example how about a feature like decel fuel shutoff. Both the boxes can probably do this. The difference is with most standlones you will probably have some enable configurations, maybe some adjustments you can make regarding the rate of rewet etc. With a factory ECU chances are you have the ability to choose the pattern by cylinder that you want to start turning the fuel back on to keep the engine balance as it comes on. You will probably be able to use spark to compensate and smooth out torque transitions as fuel is being shut off, or as its coming back on. You can pick very specific windows of when you'll be turning off fuel based on engine speed, map, vehicle speed, transmission state etc. (rather than above this rpm and this speed for example). What I'm trying to say is that there is alot more control available because engineers are always adding to the code and to logic to tailor it to new features and adjustments as they are required, the design engineers for the standalones are doing the same thing as well but on a much smaller scale with drastically differnt goals from the fols @ the OEM.

Quote:
So this right here proves to me that you really have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to stand alone ECU's.
What ever made you think that these ECU's were only there to be able to run that big turbo setup, radical cams, etc, etc clearly clouded your judgment.
Here you go again on the offence, I've told you what my experience is with aftermarket boxes but thats cool you can say Ihave "no idea" I have nothing to prove, forum talk is really serious business.

My judgment isn't clouded, I know what this stoneage TEC3r box I have will be capable of, I think it will run my car well, I don't think it will do it as well as the factory box i did in every way but it also has extra features that the motronic didnt have anyway like boost control.

Quote:
All of this what you just described above works just fine on a stand alone ECU that has been tuned properly. That's all all you need to know.
See your not really saying much here. You're just shooting down what I'm saying but not really responding with anything. I am totally down to hear you expand a bit on the capabilties of a VEMS box or other standalones you use.

Quote:
It does work. You're making this much to complicated. Engineers like yourself always seem to think they know it all. Too bad, if you actually took the time to learn something about it you'd know that your car equipped with TEC3 can run just as it did once upon a time with the stock ECU and maybe do something about it. Because it sounds to me that you're bitter that your TEC3'd car doesn't run well at all.
I'm not sure where you got that impression, maybe you've met some dickhead engineers in your life just like I've met dickhead people on forums but I'm in no way judging you based on that. The fact that you say "if you actually took some time to learn about it" makesme laugh man, what do you think I woke up one morning and started talking about ECUs thats ridiculous. I definitly don't think "I know it all", actually probably the exact opposite, lif is about learning dude, know matter how much we all think we know about something we can still learn about it for the rest of lives, thats the beauty of the world. I was just sharing some insight that i figured was relavant just like you can share the insight that you have. I'm not bitter at all about my own car, my car isnt even finished yet, I never said I had the TEC3r on the car yet, I'm still finishing the turbo (the car is on jackstands right now lol) and the TEC3 is sitting in my drawer. Like I said above I know what this badboy can do and I know it will run well, especially considering that the only emmisions test I'll have to pass is drive clean (which is a joke), I am not worried at all that I'll be satisfied with it once I dial it in. But again I'll say I know it won't do everything as well as I could do using a factory PCM, thats it, thats the only thing I've disagreed with you about.

How bout this analogy: the fact that you keep saying I don't undertand unless I use all these differnt standlones is like telling a guy riding't a 12 speed bike that he can't know the capabilites of a 3 speed bike, the guy can easily just ignore the other 9 gears lol. But if the 3 speed bike is actually a 6 speed bike and the other 6 speeds aren't really needed for the terrain the guy is trying to cover than the 6 speed or even the 3 speed may be all he needs. My TEC3r is like a 3 speed bike, I know that for fact, but thats all I'll need for this. If your standlones are a like a 6speed or 10 speed please let us all know, I'd love to hear about these great features maybe I'll sell this electromotive for something else. Hey that analogy wasn't half bad......maybe it was, oh well.

Quote:
I must say that it's not the ECU's fault. It was the one who programmed it.


So I totally give up. You believe what you want.

I've calibrated cars myself that run perfectly no matter what the temps. Cold start, warm start, afterstart/run, everything works just fine. So you might as well give up in trying to convince me that it's not possible, I already know that it is possible.
Alright man, I think I've covered this in my other comments. Maybe you and I just have differnt views about what "driveability as good or better than a factory ECU" means and thats fine. I guess your as good as it gets dude, shit I should get you to tune the carb on my lawnmower, I bet you'd have that old Briggs and Stratton running like a fuel injected V12 in no time. LOL just kidding dude, we don't have to kiss and make up over this anyway, Hopefully we see each other @ bimmercruise or something and we can talk ECUs again without all this damn typin : )
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Last edited by PedroBMW; 05-12-2008 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 05-15-2008, 12:14 AM   #28
NOTORIOUS VR
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I think where we're going wrong is... you're comparing the latest and greatest OEM ECU to stand alones. Where I'm talking about basic engine needs.

To put that in perspective. Think about OEM ECU's from just a few years ago. They ran engines just fine. Well any half decent stand alone is as good as if not better then these older OEM ECU's.

You really don't need all the extra maps you're talking about to make a motor run as good as an OEM. Like I said, if you're willing to put in the time you will have a motor that will run just the same as stock. You wouldn't even be able to notice that there is a non OEM ECU in the car.

Current engines with DI, VVT, and all the other crazyness need a little more attention, and a more powerful stand alone, but it still can be done.
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Old 05-23-2008, 01:25 PM   #29
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I'll be the first one to buy the Shark Edit when it comes out. I can't wait. I have to agree with PedroBMW. Tuning the factory ECU will be the way to go. I understand Notorious VR's resistance to it. It looks like VEMS is something you are passionate about. Shark Edit will make things much simpler for many FI setups. I'm not sure about full race or extreme setups though. I'm wondering how the ECU will handle big injectors. My plan is to run my #42's and the tuned factory ECU will do that no problem.

The other thing you will need for OBD1 is an eeprom burner. Luckily, I have access to one of those. Realize that your car is also going to only run as well as the tuner has tuned it whether you have the SE, or the VEMS, or the Tec3, or whatever.

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Old 03-05-2009, 06:53 PM   #30
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Any updates on the SHARK EDIT?
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