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Old 03-01-2014, 08:57 PM   #31
South
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Is there a problem when the US invades another country to protect its security and interests? Is there a problem if Russia invades eastern Ukraine to protect its citizens who want to vote for secession? How about its security?

The new interim nationalistic government in control of Kiev right now has one of its leader, Dmitry Yarosh, is calling for terrorist attacks against Russia by international terrorists. This pro-western interim government is also stating about rearming Ukraine with nuclear weapons. Something which under international law, which Ukraine signed in 94, would be illegal and morally dubious. And here I must point out the western hypocrisy of targeting Iran with economic sanctions, cyber attacks, etc....over its nuclear development that Iran has insisted is for peaceful energy. AND YET, when the interim government of Ukraine boldy proclaims about rearming the country with nukes, the west is silent. Of course its silent, its a pro-western government.

What could happen now is that the country erupts into civil war, one side supported by Russia and the other by the West. Perhaps the Eurozone and the Troika (IMF) are too unwilling to get Ukraine out of debt, but I know there is at least one military industrial complex who sees big profits in a potential civil war.
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:20 PM   #32
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i'm not defending the ridiculous statements of yarosh encouraging terrorism against russians.

however russia has invaded a sovereign country and violated international law. there is ZERO threat to russians in crimea, the only aggression so far has been by pro-russian forces. How is this excusable?

Ukraine voluntarily gave up its nuclear weapons in 94 under the agreement that its borders were secure and wouldn't be contested. It also signed a treaty with russia about military bases in crimea, however russia has already violated those treaties as well by moving its forces outside of its designated zones.

Russia is eagerly provoking conflict, ukraine would be wise not to give in. International opinion is firmly on ukraine's side, and this will change in the event of any hostilities.
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Old 03-01-2014, 10:47 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
i'm not defending the ridiculous statements of yarosh encouraging terrorism against russians.

You have been defending the so called will of the Ukrainian people this entire thread. Yarosh is that leader of that will, and you have been defending this so called just and "democratic" revolution. The leaders of the opposition have taken over control and are right wing nationalists like Yarosh.

however russia has invaded a sovereign country and violated international law. there is ZERO threat to russians in crimea, the only aggression so far has been by pro-russian forces. How is this excusable?

Again I ask the question, is there a problem with the US invading a sovereign country and violating international law to protect itself? What about Russia who has a responsibility to its citizens in Ukraine. How do you possibly claim zero threat to Russians in eastern Ukraine? The Russians in Crimea have themselves created their own militia and taken over government buildings and airports. And they are wanting to vote to secede from what they are calling is an illegitimate interim government.


Ukraine voluntarily gave up its nuclear weapons in 94 under the agreement that its borders were secure and wouldn't be contested. It also signed a treaty with russia about military bases in crimea, however russia has already violated those treaties as well by moving its forces outside of its designated zones.



Russia is eagerly provoking conflict, ukraine would be wise not to give in. International opinion is firmly on ukraine's side, and this will change in the event of any hostilities.
Do you work for elite interests? Are you part of western spy agencies that hire cybermagicians?http://rt.com/news/five-eyes-online-...deception-564/ Or are you just a person who likes trolling and dividing people up and watching them fight each other and your troll persona? You have my pity and anyone who calls you a friend. But in the chance you are just a concerned individual who has lost the path then how about you meet up with me and some people from this forum and talk about what you think is correct face to face, you live in Toronto?
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:07 PM   #34
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what the **** are you talking about?

i'm at the meets pretty regularly, come out anytime. you're completely insane if you still think the west has something to do with this. to be honest, if you think that "western spy agencies" have something to do with this, you're insane, and there's little for us to discuss. no one other than self-interested russian parties is even discussing such a preposterous idea.


Yarosh is NOT democratic, there hasen't been any elections, how the **** can he represent a democracy?

No, it is NOT ok for the US to invade anyone for any reason. They do anyway, and so does russia, because they can. That doesn't make it right. the complete lunacy here is that the russians in crimea aren't under attack from anyone. there is zero hostility. the pro russian militia as well as the russian national army just invaded parliment in crimea and captured the two airports. they are the only ones who have committed any aggression whatsoever.

if you'll bother to read, i pointed out before this whole crimean conflict that crimea is not historically ukrainian. they are already an autonomous republic and would likely have had the opportunity to secede without military intervention.

yes, yarosh made a stupid comment. putin invaded a country, you really see these as equal?
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:20 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
what the **** are you talking about?

i'm at the meets pretty regularly, come out anytime. you're completely insane if you still think the west has something to do with this. to be honest, if you think that "western spy agencies" have something to do with this, you're insane, and there's little for us to discuss. no one other than self-interested russian parties is even discussing such a preposterous idea.


Yarosh is NOT democratic, there hasen't been any elections, how the **** can he represent a democracy?

No, it is NOT ok for the US to invade anyone for any reason. They do anyway, and so does russia, because they can. That doesn't make it right.

if you'll bother to read, i pointed out before this whole crimean conflict that crimea is not historically ukrainian. they are already an autonomous republic and would likely have had the opportunity to secede without military intervention.

yes, yarosh made a stupid comment. putin invaded a country, you really see these as equal?
Do you work for elite interests? Are you part of western spy agencies that hire cybermagicians?http://rt.com/news/five-eyes-online-...deception-564/. You disagree with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_model ? Or are you just a person who likes trolling and dividing people up and watching them fight each other and your troll persona? Do you really believe what you write. You have my pity and anyone who calls you a friend. But in the chance you are just a concerned individual who has lost the path then how about you meet up with me and some people from this forum and talk about what you think is correct face to face, you live in Toronto?

Heres what western nations have supported, hiring cyber magicians who deceive.
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Old 03-01-2014, 11:46 PM   #36
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listen man, i've enjoyed my debate with you, but i really have to come to the conclusion that you're ****ing retarded.

most recently i've brought up a point of russia violating another countries sovereignty (lots of proof in many independent news outlets, there's a reporter from the CBC in crimea right now) and your rebuttal is accusing me of being privy to some conspiracy. you do not live in the real world. your arguments are not constrained by facts. RT is a puppet for the russian state. there is no journalistic freedom in russia. get news from someone (anyone) who has the right to publish whatever they think is true without a gun to their head.

we both have our bias, i clearly have mine, but unlike you, i'm quick to justify what i say with independent proof. much more importantly i'm willing to concede when my side is wrong.

you talking about propaganda to defend russia invading ukraine to protect the "security" of the russian people, while there hasen't been a single incident in crimea of any russian persons being so much as threatened is just insane. maybe people in russia are so brainwashed to buy into this nonsense, but no one else is. the heads of almost all developed states have come out against russia for their declaration of war against a sovereign, non-hostile opponent. the key is just for ukraine to wait it out, and not give into conflict.

the irony here is that putin himself is not stupid enough to publicly discuss this. where is he in the media saying he wants security for crimea? he can't come out and say that, because then he'd have to justify it with proof. i wish putin was ukrainian, and the leader of ukraine. we'd have a much stronger country.
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Old 03-02-2014, 01:37 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
listen man, i've enjoyed my debate with you, but i really have to come to the conclusion that you're ****ing retarded.

Most recently i've brought up a point of russia violating another countries sovereignty (lots of proof in many independent news outlets, there's a reporter from the cbc in crimea right now) and your rebuttal is accusing me of being privy to some conspiracy. You do not live in the real world. Your arguments are not constrained by facts. Rt is a puppet for the russian state. There is no journalistic freedom in russia. Get news from someone (anyone) who has the right to publish whatever they think is true without a gun to their head.

We both have our bias, i clearly have mine, but unlike you, i'm quick to justify what i say with independent proof. Much more importantly i'm willing to concede when my side is wrong.

You talking about propaganda to defend russia invading ukraine to protect the "security" of the russian people, while there hasen't been a single incident in crimea of any russian persons being so much as threatened is just insane. Maybe people in russia are so brainwashed to buy into this nonsense, but no one else is. The heads of almost all developed states have come out against russia for their declaration of war against a sovereign, non-hostile opponent. The key is just for ukraine to wait it out, and not give into conflict.

The irony here is that putin himself is not stupid enough to publicly discuss this. Where is he in the media saying he wants security for crimea? He can't come out and say that, because then he'd have to justify it with proof. I wish putin was ukrainian, and the leader of ukraine. We'd have a much stronger country.
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Old 03-02-2014, 08:48 AM   #38
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Well let's leave it at that that everyone has their own bias.

As someone who is a Kievan I'll just say that most Ukrainians want to live in peace, work, and raise their families. As someone who is half-Russian I dislike Russian bashing and will defend Russia if the Banderovci (pro Western Ukrainians) take over Ukraine. They haven't yet so I will stay silent on the issue.

I can't say that Russians "invaded" and it's "wrong" because Crimea is technically Russian territory. Sevastopol, the largest city is pretty much under lease to the Russian government. Crimea is 15% Muslim Tatar which Ukrainians don't have the best relationship with anyway, and only 15% are ethnic Ukrainians.

Took this pic yesterday. Ukraine an amazing country and I believe it will come out on top. Neither the US, Canada, Russia, Banderovci or Tatars truly understand what it means to be Ukrainian. And I think it's for the best. Canada closed their embassy in Kiev which to me is the ultimate act of cowardice. The Canadian flag from the "elka" (the maidan christmas tree) should be taken down. Maybe I'll do it



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Old 03-02-2014, 01:50 PM   #39
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vitaliy, crimea is an autonomous republic within ukraine. that means under international law, its ukrainian. russia has a lease for bases in crimea, not the entire region. their troop movements beyond their bases must be authorized. putin is clearly in violation of international law, no non-russian actor has agreed that russia has any legal justification for their invasion.

are you suggesting the crimean tatars have a better relationship with russians than ukrainians? i'd be very keen to see any evidence of that.

again, i'm not that concerned with crimea. it is ethnically russian (for the most part). if it becomes a part of russia again, i wouldn't cry over it. none of this justifies russian hostilities, though.


i posted in this thread on the day that canada closed its embassy. it was the same day that there was government sanctioned murder in the streets. i do not see why the canadian government would continue diplomatic services in a country that murders its own citizens.
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:05 PM   #40
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I agree with you. I like crimea though, i used to vacation there and its expensive and has no economy anyway so aside from going there in the summer who gives a shit about it. What's happened with crimea, from putins point of view is this. Since the protestors took over kiev he thinks he has the right to escalate the standoff in crimea right now. But thats all that he can do. He knows that if he as much as sets foot in the eastern ukraine he will start a third world war. He can treat crimea as another south ossetia or abkhazia but thats all he can do and he knows it. Georgians are muslims and crimean tatars are too so i can see racially motivated meddling, sure. But thats where the difference stops. There are tens of millions Ukrainians. Ukraine is mobilizing troops and young and old men are full of adrenaline from the maidan. Not to mention nato is going to jump full force into this. Besides, russians shooting ukrainians? This just sounds so absurd its like a joke. Ukrainians and Russians are one blood... If a war does happen though it WILL cause a civil war in russia too . Mark my words...putin party will be over fast
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:10 PM   #41
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wait, you're completely lost me. you're confusing "protesters" and the government of ukraine. protesters aren't in control of kiev, the parliment is. protesters encouraged/coerced/whatever Parliament into restructuring, sure, but its not like insurgents are holding kiev right now. the people in parliament making decisions are those elected in the last election.

insurgents ARE however holding crimea. russian insurgents captured the parliament buildings in crimea through the use of force.

if there were proof of an IMMEDIATE security risk to russians in crimea, i could maybe understand these actions (although they would still not be legal.) the problem is that there is NO RISK TO RUSSIANS IN CRIMEA. Like you said, crimea is MOSTLY russians anyway. Whom are these people at risk from? Ukraine didn't mobilize any troops to crimea to attack these people. ukraine didn't move ANY forces to crimea at all until AFTER putin moved his troops in. Russians in crimea are safe, at least until putin starts a war.


also, i dream of nato and the US actually doing something, but, they wont. because despite all the conspiracy theorists out there who believe the west is dying to control ukraine, despite the treaty of budapest signed in 1994 which signatories (including the US and Russia) guarantee ukraines borders and protection from hostilities, no one gives a ****. there wont be any american warships in the black sea. no nato troops on the ground. it just wont happen, because its only ****ing ukraine, and no one cares. its too bad really, this conflict could be over in an hour if the US flew one f22 from Incirlik over crimea, just to prove that someone gives a shit. but the US is not interested in a risking a hot war in ukraine. they're not interested in protecting their partners that they've signed treaties with, who are actively asking for their help. they're only interested in invading middle eastern countries for varied and unknown reasons.
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:35 PM   #42
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A guy on CNN made a good point today in Putin's defence.

If the Canadian government or Mexico had their president forced out and there was blood shed etc etc etc. Do we not think the US wouldn't move troops to their boarders and perhaps beyond in protection of their interest's?

We are quick to demonize Putin but all he is imo is a Russian American lol Just because we try to act as though everything we do is just doesn't make it so. If I were Putin or any good military leader it seems like common sense, take advantage of a situation to either protect or strengthen your position and for that he is wrong?

Now if he goes further I would agree he would be going too far but he is not a stupid man, as BMW_7 stated, he wouldn't risk his power for something so silly.
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:37 PM   #43
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Ivan lets drop the technicalities here. From the Russian point of view they think the protesters took over kiev and thats not far from the truth anyway. Until REAL elections take place as far as im concerned the protesters took over the government. It had to happen and im not disagreeing with it.

Look Ivan what you're saying makes sense, yes, logically speaking if what putin is saying is true then he is sending his army to "protect russian speaking population".. but even the dumbest of the dumb in ukraine (maybe not russia ) know it's all bs. putin is just holding on to straws here.

I hope you are wrong. if this turns into a full scale war ukraine will be anhinilated in 2 seconds without western help and and we will be back yanukovych style all over again. nato and us have invested a lot into this already and they will continue their work. the main reason the protesters were successful was because they had the backing of the west and/or $. its obvious when you walk around the maidan. there are range rovers, lexuses and mercedes.. there are buses permanently parked with lvov plates by st michaels cathedral

Blackedout95, agreed
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:39 PM   #44
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you're right. canada should invade ukraine too, since there are canadians in ukraine who might be (which apparently in eastern european politics pretty much means 100% are) at risk.

vitaliy you are wrong. the protesters were successful because yanukovich attacked them, and that gave them the moral high ground, which is why they received international attention and support. its stupid to say that the protesters out-spent the government, particularly when independent estimates put yanukovich's embezzlement to various friends, trusts and funds during his presidency at 70 billion USD. his sphere of influence has infinitely more wealth than the opposition. and as you very well know, the maidan movement was NOT allied directly to klitchko, tymoshenko or anyone else, so although their money was certainly there, they were not bankrolling these movements.

all yanukovich needed to do to stay in power was not use violence against protesters. the maidan movement would have died down without international support, and he would've still been president.
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:39 PM   #45
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Let me ask you, what advantage exactly was all this death and trouble for? What will the average Ukrainian have now they didn't with the former president?

Didn't nearly half of the population vote for him?
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