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Old 03-04-2014, 11:39 PM   #61
South
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
That is a lot more like it. although i still disagree with you very strongly, you're at least framing the argument in a somewhat reasonable way.

Is the president of Ukraine still the only legitimate leader according to Ukrainian constitution?

The president abandoned his post and has been charged with murder. Ukraine has a standing army of 130000, are you trying to tell me he was worried his army couldn't protect him from 1000 protesters of which a FEW might have had real guns? c'mon man.

Ukraines president was trying to appease western concerns and protestors at that time by ordering out the military police out of the city. Thus my earlier mentioning of him showing real restraint in dealing with the protestors. Thus he and the government buildings were undefended other than riot police. If protestors stormed those buildings and were massacred by troops you think should have bene defending him, that would just add to the negative image of cracking down on protestors. Thus he did not abandon his post, he fled for safety. Imagine along the lines if Harper leaves Toronto over G20 he is not abandoning his post, he is fleeing G20 threats (hypothetical). Is he still constitutionally elected President?

Is the interim government legitimate in putting forth policies it wants?

These policies are being put forth by the parliment. The democratically elected parliment. No new members have been appointed since the upheavals. Why is the parliment suddenly null and void because the president is no longer in power? c'mon man.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/arseniy-...e-pm-1.1706052. The parliament, which I remind you was taken over by protestors with guns, and is full of power hungry politicians who put their flag infront of any parade they can find. The parliament has put in a new cabinet. Ei the ministries, including defense. and Put in power an acting prime minister. Parliament has also passed the fastest ever impeachment of a president in 1 day. Impeachment is usually a lengthy process and involves the nations supreme court to interpret the constitution and other relevant laws. Parliament also voted on the release of rich people like Yulia who were in prison under corruption and abuse of power crimes. Parliament has also put into power former oligarchs as governors in Eastern Ukrainian provinces.
Parliament is null and void because of the need of elections. Their authority should be limited to creating stability and the immediate rounds of elections for seats of power in parliament and presidency. This is democratic process. The acting government has no legitimacy for pushing forward their policies, such as siding with the EU in terms of the trade agreement. That policy represents a part of Ukrainian will and those who want that need to vote for that party that runs on that platform. At the same time, those who oppose such a trade deal, mainly in eastern and southern ukraine must also be allowed to vote for partys that run on Russia trade deal platform. Also, since this parliament for the above reasons is illegitimate, it does not make autonomous regions parliaments like Crimea illegitimate, because its parliament was elected in 2010. Thus it makes sense for Ukrainian soldiers in Crimea to be able to pledge an oath to Crimea and not Kiev.

Is it OK for Russian forces already in Crimea to fortify Crimea?

it is not, this is expressly against the treaty russia has with ukraine. FYI putin has denied any of these are russian troops, apparently its all "local militias" now. suuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

The treaty allows 25,000 Russian military personel in the region of Crimea, that encompasses more than 1 base throughout the Territory. What Putin is claiming are not Russian troops, are the people in uniforms without insignia surrounding the Ukrainian military bases. If you watch RT news, you can see some of their correspondents speak directly those masked unmarked people saying they are protecting themselves from an illigitmate government.

a few considerations:

the crimean population is nearly 2 million people, almost all of whom are very pro-russian. if (once) crimea becomes a part of russia, those two million people will no longer vote in ukraine. It will be very difficult for a pro russian party to get 50% of the vote (pop 44 million) if they suddenly lose 2 million of their supporters. If donetsk and kharkiv and their oblasts' also go to russia, no pro-russian candidate will stand a chance in ukraine, simply because of gerrymandering.

Russia is not here to seek world domination, they do not want to annex land. They have explicitly, said, Putin, that the people of Crimea and other regions must be able to exercise their free will and be able to vote for referendums. If eastern Ukraine and Crimea vote to seperate, we could have a new country or they could seek integration with Russia. They will have to vote and decide. At the very least, If Kosovo had the western backed right to declare independence then so is the case here.

If ukraine defaults on its debts (i strongly think it should, the only reason not to is to prevent russia from cutting off the gas, which they will do or will threaten to do at every juncture anyway) the national debt will be reduced by 2BN. If the US actually comes up with another billion, this would temporarily resolve ukraine's impending financial crisis.

The EU is considering paying the 2 billion gas debt to Gazprom. Putin is not overly concerned about the G8 or western sanctions.

Putin is now on his back foot because of the combined western/european condemnation of his actions. He's backpeddling. But even a pro-russian person like you has to concede that that taking over border posts and military bases in ukraine for the purpoted reason of "security" is ridiculous. No russian person was ever under threat in crimea, and if they were, it would be from partisans, not the ukrainian national army.

I am not Pro Russian. I am Pro-socialist. I see the world on the most fundamental level in terms of class conflict. Putin under Russia has nationalizied (government take over) of key industries that were under control of oligarchs. He has invested heavily into infrastructure and most importantly does not follow our western capitalistic neo-liberal ideology. Also, if you admit yourself the economy is on the brink of total collapse, that law and order hasn't even been restored in Kiev, then threats from partisans is more of a real threat that official Ukraine army. Remember the Yugoslav civil war was fought by army defectors and civilian militia who choose sides and fought each other. Officially Serbia did not control the Serbian paramilitaries and runaway Yugo army generals in Bosnia. The same goes for the other sides. Of course the west chose to believe that only Serbia was the aggressor or supporters of aggressor and bombed Serbia. One of the things Putin has said in his conference, he wants to put Russian troops in-front of the men women and children. Already there are reports of regional commanders in eastern Ukraine refusing orders by Kiev to initiate any type of provocation. The threat is real, realer than WMds or Al Qaeda in Iraq to attack the US. If you are so outraged over Russias "violation of sovereignty" then what about Iraqs, Libyas, Syrias, Serbias, etc. This time Putin is defending a majority population region and has warned he can send more troops to other pro Russian regions if they are threatened. Once again the onus of provocation now rests in Kiev. If you are so anti violators of UN law, which you interpret has no justification, then why arn't you the same for the west. The west are the bigger criminals of violating this kind of law. Why are you trusting their interpretation. Do you not see the west doing what it wants for its interest.


Also there are recordings online of russian warships issuing ultimatums. just because putin said it didn't happen doesn't mean it actually didn't happen.

Putin didn't even dignify such gossip with attempting to defend. The Russian Interfax agency is the one denying the claims and as I've cited in my post before other, western news media is picking up on it.

so far i'm very proud of ukraine. we've learned from shakashvilli's mistakes. first one to shoot, loses.



and arek, it can get real bad, real fast. but it wont really get that bloody unless russia tries to take over all of ukraine. russia has a standing army of about a half million, but more than half of those are conscripts. conscripts are not going to willingly shoot at people who look like them, are the same religion and speak the same language. if russia turns this conflict hot, it will probably be short. they'll attack and seize military targets in the parts of ukraine where the population wont rise up against them. the rest of ukraine is not conquerable. you'd have to carpet bomb the Carpathian mountains, cause that's where all the ukrainian patriots will be, in trees with their sniper rifles. (the fins taught us how to deal with invading soviet armies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4
Also I find amusing your position in regards to intellectual authority. Stating how you think my arguments are frame-worked, in more or less reasonable means, suggests you think your frame-working of an argument is superior. Is it because you think you are right and so your logic of your argument is better because you analyze what is really important? You said that you have a PSCI degree? You must be one of those dickhead partiers that did whatever was easiest to get the grade to get the paper. I mean I wish you were one of those students who at least called themselves a liberal, a realist, or a socialist. Took a stance between Neoliberal vs Keynesian. At least then you put a symbol on your shoulders that stands for a lot of things. Instead you present me and any willing readers with up to date western media facts and your analysis of them. I am a socialist. I see the history of humankind as the dialectal conflict between the proletariat and bourgeoisie. I see individuals as rational and I see those in higher positions of power acting rationally to preserve their positions of power. I have seen politicians and leaders come from below and above to challenge this system, chavez, putin. In my world I have good idea of the forces against the system and the forces for the system. I view things consistently and from the same perspective and in that sense I have achieved my own intellectual castle which you are happy in continuing to try to breach.
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Old 03-04-2014, 11:41 PM   #62
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The impasse we have is the "fact" going around in the media world is if there is a threat to Russians in Ukraine. Now every other consideration aside, if the people of Ukraine can overthrow a government, then so do the people in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea.THEY have chosen to go to their cities government buildings and put on up Russian flags. They have signalized at least their political difference from Kiev. They are in the streets saying what happened in Ukraine was a coup. What right does the new powers in Kiev have to say to those people in eastern Ukraine to shutup, to obey their laws, and their governors, and their policies, to be part of their Ukraine. What right. If some Albertan western back protestors took over Ottawa in a coup, what right does this new power in Ottawa have to take away French language laws of Quebec. What if Quebec had french military bases and those forces decided to fortify Quebec. What if Quebec civilians armed themselves and took over airports and government buildings? What if Canadian military in Quebec switched sides and swore an oath to Quebec? What if France told the world that if any other french people near Quebec became threatened by radical anti-french that they would send troops to protect them?
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:01 AM   #63
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you're welcome to be a socialist. but why the **** should my country be subjected to your will?

why does putin get to decide what's legitimate in ukraine or not? the only thing 100% certain about legitimate political power in ukraine is that putin has none.

Why do you live here in our "capitalist paradise"? Go live in russia?

If you must put me in some sort of category, i am libertarian. perhaps leaning towards anarcho-capitalism. this means i value personal freedom above everything. so my homeland being invaded by an authoritarian villain like putin breaks my heart.

i partied a lot in school. i got terrible grades, and always disagreed with my profs over everything. (most profs at university are insane, bat-shit crazy socialists like yourself). you attacking my character doesn't detract from my argument.


im not particularly interested in having a general argument about socialism vs capitalism in this thread. i came here to present the opposing view to what you presented. you have a very callous attitude towards ukraine and ukrainian people. you have no vested interest in ukraine, but after a president murders his own people you defend him. you supposedly are a socialist but are defending the policies of billionaire oppressors of the working man. you stretch and misconstrue the truth constantly at every step, and use trivial events to justify overblown responses. you've learned much from sucking on vladimir vladimirovich's proverbial cock.

my country deserves the right to be free. it will have elections in may. putin has no business in crimea. the entire world has already accepted this. even china is balking at supporting putin, and they are russias ally.

i hope whatever place you call your homeland is one day pilfered and coerced by russia like my homeland is. i'd be willing to bet it already has.

and when i say you framed your argument, i mean you presented it in some concise way, such that it can be deconstructed, discussed (and in your case, almost always ultimately rejected).
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:35 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
you're welcome to be a socialist. but why the **** should my country be subjected to your will?

What will is this? If people happen to vote and choose socialism is this not OK with you? Or is it only OK if they choose a particular way you think is right?

why does putin get to decide what's legitimate in ukraine or not? the only thing 100% certain about legitimate political power in ukraine is that putin has none.

How is he deciding whats legitimate in ukraine or not? How is the west? Why does Russia have no legitimate political power?

Why do you live here in our "capitalist paradise"? Go live in russia?

I am against any injustice against any country, I belong to the 99% and I dont think I am better than others nor deserve better treatment at the expense of others for whatever justification (racial, ethnic, religious,). I have no interests in Ukraine or Russia, only interests of the 99%, from a workers perspective

If you must put me in some sort of category, i am libertarian. perhaps leaning towards anarcho-capitalism. this means i value personal freedom above everything. so my homeland being invaded by an authoritarian villain like putin breaks my heart.

How is Putin Authoritarian? If Canada expropriates the Shell oil company is that authoritarian to me as a citizen? Who would say its authoritarian? I mean your a libertarian, they have been the ones spreading this neoliberal economic system since the 1980s. Thats NAFTA, thats oursourcing, thats the IMF/WTO/WorldBank, that privatization of public space and assets, thats the cut of welfare state, thats ending government subsidies for the poor, thats destroying union power, thats market fundamentalism, thats 2008...its opposed to what existed from 1945 to 1970s. Which was keynesian economics, embedded liberalism, socialist economic policies. Except in the 1970s stagflation the elites, the same ones fighting Russia and who wanted capitilism to win, decided a solution to the problem called neoliberalism.


i partied a lot in school. i got terrible grades, and always disagreed with my profs over everything. (most profs at university are insane, bat-shit crazy socialists like yourself). you attacking my character doesn't detract from my argument.

this description says more than you know


im not particularly interested in having a general argument about socialism vs capitalism in this thread. i came here to present the opposing view to what you presented. you have a very callous attitude towards ukraine and ukrainian people. you have no vested interest in ukraine, but after a president murders his own people you defend him. you supposedly are a socialist but are defending the policies of billionaire oppressors of the working man. you stretch and misconstrue the truth constantly at every step, and use trivial events to justify overblown responses. you've learned much from sucking on vladimir vladimirovich's proverbial cock.

as i said above, my interests are people everywhere, and rights and laws that seek to guarantee freedom from fear and want. How or what do you mean am I defending the policies of billionaire oppressors of the working man.

my country deserves the right to be free. it will have elections in may. putin has no business in crimea. the entire world has already accepted this. even china is balking at supporting putin, and they are russias ally.


i hope whatever place you call your homeland is one day pilfered and coerced by russia like my homeland is. i'd be willing to bet it already has.

and when i say you framed your argument, i mean you presented it in some concise way, such that it can be deconstructed, discussed (and in your case, almost always ultimately rejected).

B]
Why do you not offer a deconstruction of Putin press conference given yesterday
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Old 03-05-2014, 02:03 AM   #65
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no thanks, i 'll pass. if you dont understand how putin violently limiting free speach and dissent in his country, changing the constitution of his own country to stay in power and jailing his political enemies makes him authoritarian you're beyond help, and i've already wasted much more of my breath on you than you're worth. you are arguing against the generally accepted (at least in the west) view of politics from a fanatical stance. i bet you i've read about as much marx as you have, and there's no way he'd support what putin is doing now. socialist revolutions are supposed to be made by the people, not an autocrat.

and you're not the member of the 99%. not in this country, or any country i'd ever choose to live in.
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Old 03-05-2014, 03:01 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
no thanks, i 'll pass. if you dont understand how putin violently limiting free speach and dissent in his country, changeing the constitution of his own country to stay in power and jailing his political enemies makes him authoritarian you're beyond help, and i've already wasted much more of my breath on you than you're worth. you are arguing against the generally accepted (at least in the west) view of politics from a fanatical stance. i bet you i've read about as much marx as you have, and there's no way he'd support what putin is doing now. socialist revolutions are supposed to be made by the people, not an autocrat.

and you're not the member of the 99%. not in this country, or any country i'd ever choose to live in.
I do not deny any of that, well the unpersonal stuff. But watching Yeltsin sell his country away I am not surprised alot of people got into power that needed to be removed. If anything you subject the western notion that the west is a champion of rights and the white knight in shining armor. Russia under Putin is a managed democracy. And what socio-economic policies does Putin have? Is he a Yeltsin crook who sells the country out to capitalist oligarchs, is it neoliberal poison? Are there authoritarian good guys as well as bad guys? How does Putin stand up to western violation of International Laws? Does it piss you off that Putin, this evil dictator you see him as, stands up to the west over issues in the rest of the world? You must think alot of his evil interferences....

Im wasting my breath...I deconstruct Obamas SOTU and anyone else I look at. This is Putin in a press conference, the "enemy" that you believe he is, and you have considered him so injust and evil that he deserves no dignity for your analysis or listening? Do you consider your position so weak as to not be able to hold? Please, kindly do what you have been to others and me on this thread. Tell us exactly how this video is pure Russian lies and manipulation and violations. Tell us what Putin is, what he is saying here and why it is so wrong. I am sure your car is a proper one, is your logic.

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Old 03-05-2014, 04:18 AM   #67
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i will concede the point that much of what i'm accusing putin of (flat out lying), many western leaders, (especially barry) are guilty of too. that does not in my eyes make it justifiable. i'm not some big proponent of western leaders. i didn't vote for barry, i didn't vote for harper, i find both of them morally reprehensible and completely dishonest. but so what? how does that justify the actions of others?

let me ask you, is there not a difference of lying in a country where journalists are free to call you out on your bullshit, and lying in a country where you control the media specifically to protect yourself from having to justify your actions?

I think you can tell you struck a nerve with me, maybe that was your intention, maybe not, but you present the argument that this is a russia vs west conflict. its not. this is an internal conflict in ukraine. you keep presenting this as if the west is somehow controlling the revolution in ukraine. NO ONE is controlling the revolution in ukraine. Not tymoshenko, not klitschko, not yatseniuk, not yarosh. that much is very clear to anyone who's studying the situation in ukraine. klitschko as leader of the opposition struck a deal with yanuk's government to have elections in december. the revolutionaries didn't agree. this has happened repeatedly in the last few weeks. there are people on the maidan who were protesting tymoshenkos release from prison. there are jewish national organizations on the maidan who have issued threats against yarosh's life. what offends me the most about what you're saying, and what putin is saying, is that there is no grassroots cause for the uprisings, and its all a plot of ultra-nationalists/western agents. this is indisputably not true. i can't say that this grassroots movement has the authority of law, or the right to create its own government (at least not yet, and frankly, i can't see it being less legitimate than a government who is facing a preponderance of evidence showing corruption, murder and the assault of citizens/journalists looking to expose the aforementioned transgressions). that's a question for politicians and lawyers. but i can say with certainty that it does represent the will of (some of/ many of/ most of) the people. a large proportion of people in the country feel that ukraine is broken from the top down, and are not willing to live under the current systme anymore. and if putin was saying to these people "you have the right to your freedoms, but so do we" it would be a different story. Putin is only interested in promoting his own foreign policy, and uses ideological justification to try to explain it to the world. again, this isn't something i think the west is innocent of. but they were wrong when they did it, and putin is wrong now.

i dont need to justify my position to you. i live in a society of people who believe, more or less, what i do. no one in the west believes putin's side of this. no western media outlet is justifying putin's actions. your argument (as well as putin's) is based fundamentally in questioning the entire western hemispheres current understanding of the situation. and like i keep bringing up, the west has more or less free media. if there was a dichotomy in understanding the situation in ukraine now, we would hear about it. but there is no second opinion. canada, the US, the uk, germany, france, switzerland, austria, poland, romania, hungary and many other countries have all adopted the same position. if you're willing to ignore the entire world and believe only the actor who is being accused of wrongdoing, you can't be surprised when people aren't interested in justifying your delusion by arguing against it. if i tried to argue against what putin is saying, i'd be legitimizing the belief that he isn't lying completely and wholeheartedly, which doesn't represent what I think, or what most in the west think. russia is adopting an increasingly isolationist policy, and they're more and more willing to alienate the existing powers in international diplomacy in the belief that they can go it alone. the soviet union tried this before. maybe putin will succeed with his predecessors have failed.
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Old 03-05-2014, 05:41 AM   #68
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I read that press conference by Putin and I agree with it too.

Ivan, you say you're a libertarian but the way you talk about ukraine makes you sound like a radical nationalist. It's also obvious people in Lviv and Rivne are blinded with emotions with their senseless stockpiling of food and giving blood. LOL. Are they retarded?

I talked to some people in Kiev and they have an opinion that echoes my own, which is this.

The political situation is a mess and an average person will conclude that neither Russians nor Ukrainian "banderas" are right. It's a lot more complicated than you think. Let's look at facts:

For over 20 years in Kiev Rada we had had a system of Ukrainian billionaires which were in bed with Russians. These billionaires all did their own thing and infiltrated the whole system with corruption, be it cops, schools, every crevice of the law and banking and business environment. Basically it was a giant circle of pocketing money without anything getting done. And people got used to it for over 20 years, there's no going back.

Ukraine is marred by failure. Look: Yushenko and the orange revolution failed in 2004. Contempt for Yushenko grew. Tymoshenko robbed Ukraine of gas and picketed millions. Contept for Tymoshenko grew even more. During elections in 2011, people knew Yanukovich was a crook and a criminal. But they still voted for him because he was the lesser evil. You see, every single politician, with the ones on display for us in the Rada today has a negative approval Rating. If Tymoshenko has 20% support, she has 80% disapproval. Yatseniuk may have 30% support, and 70% disapproval.

I hate to break it to you but everyone in parliament right now, including Yatseniuk, Tymoshenko, all the billionaires they appointed to run Donetsk and Kharkiv, they are all the same breed of people. They grew up in the system and that's all they know. Putin says it was wrong to appoint them and he is right on that count. It's a blatant in your face reshuffling of power that is more of the same corruption, theft and lies.

On the surface the whole game seems to be east-west game. It's just noise. Your observation that Crimea is Russian is true - 90% of Crimeans voted for Yanukovich. But who cares? The real power in Kiev and all the strings that are pulled under the people in Kiev are marred by Russian style corruption because that's what the system IS. Behind all of this are the people of Ukraine who are suffering and will continue to suffer because real democracy is nowhere to be seen.

My point is this: the "Banderas" and Pro West like yourself will make some noise, the Eastern people will make more noise (btw I talked to some people in Donetsk and they are Heavily against Kiev and they will vote for Russian backed politicians and no one will change that),Russians make their own noise obviously, while the "gears" work silently beneath all of this.. These "gears" are what everyone should be concerned about, no one is.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:33 AM   #69
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but you too vitaliy are guilty of the same hypocrisy i just accused south of, and putin of. i know you understand the situation better than to say that there are "russians" on one side and "banderites" on the other. This simply isn't true, and such broad generalizations don't accurately describe the gamut of ideology that exists in ukraine today.
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:08 PM   #70
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i will concede the point that much of what i'm accusing putin of (flat out lying), many western leaders, (especially barry) are guilty of too. that does not in my eyes make it justifiable. i'm not some big proponent of western leaders. i didn't vote for barry, i didn't vote for harper, i find both of them morally reprehensible and completely dishonest. but so what? how does that justify the actions of others?

let me ask you, is there not a difference of lying in a country where journalists are free to call you out on your bullshit, and lying in a country where you control the media specifically to protect yourself from having to justify your actions?

What is interesting is that our media, is not controlled by government, but because it is a 24/7 corporation business model functions under the propaganda model and the five filters news goes through. No one is controlling how the news is filtered, it just is by its very nature. And how many times did our bad guys get caught and continued their rise to power? Our media is more concerned with making money and not putting down hard hitting journalists who question everything. Media would rather just regurgitate whats floating around and filling in that 24/7 news cycle than hiring people to do real work and make real analysis.

I think you can tell you struck a nerve with me, maybe that was your intention, maybe not, but you present the argument that this is a russia vs west conflict. its not. this is an internal conflict in ukraine. you keep presenting this as if the west is somehow controlling the revolution in ukraine. NO ONE is controlling the revolution in ukraine. Not tymoshenko, not klitschko, not yatseniuk, not yarosh. that much is very clear to anyone who's studying the situation in ukraine. klitschko as leader of the opposition struck a deal with yanuk's government to have elections in december. the revolutionaries didn't agree. this has happened repeatedly in the last few weeks. there are people on the maidan who were protesting tymoshenkos release from prison. there are jewish national organizations on the maidan who have issued threats against yarosh's life. what offends me the most about what you're saying, and what putin is saying, is that there is no grassroots cause for the uprisings, and its all a plot of ultra-nationalists/western agents. this is indisputably not true. i can't say that this grassroots movement has the authority of law, or the right to create its own government (at least not yet, and frankly, i can't see it being less legitimate than a government who is facing a preponderance of evidence showing corruption, murder and the assault of citizens/journalists looking to expose the aforementioned transgressions). that's a question for politicians and lawyers. but i can say with certainty that it does represent the will of (some of/ many of/ most of) the people. a large proportion of people in the country feel that ukraine is broken from the top down, and are not willing to live under the current systme anymore. and if putin was saying to these people "you have the right to your freedoms, but so do we" it would be a different story. Putin is only interested in promoting his own foreign policy, and uses ideological justification to try to explain it to the world. again, this isn't something i think the west is innocent of. but they were wrong when they did it, and putin is wrong now.

I have spoken of the grassroots movement of these protests. Change, and peoples hope for change. What you need to fathom is how the protests were hijacked by radicals and how the west HAS interfered. In December we had McCain and other western politicians coming to Kiev and supporting the protestors, but also having meeting with the new radical right sector who are now in power. Does this shock you? Is it shocking that McCain supported the now new PM during the initial protests?. I have to repeat that Putin has no foreign interest in Ukraine, he does not want a puppet state, he just wants Ukrainians to be free from western influence and to decide for themselves. Western influence in Ukraine has been there since the 90s. Who do you think introduced to the former soviet union the economic policy that led to the rise of oligarchs? The west supported anyone who had the wests interests in mind, and they still are to this day. The west does not care about democracy or human rights, they care about economic ideology and will support anyone who supports it. This is evil. This is the evil that had the west support countless brutal regimes that murdered any opposition. The list is enormous. Our western luxury and blissfulness is based on multinational corporate exploitation. Ukraine economy is worse now than when it was with USSR. Ukraine for 2 decades trusted the western democratic model and economic ideology and all it has produced is corruption and oligarchs. Now we have a radical sector of the protestors in power and backed by the west doing what economic policies the west says to do.

i dont need to justify my position to you. i live in a society of people who believe, more or less, what i do. no one in the west believes putin's side of this. no western media outlet is justifying putin's actions. your argument (as well as putin's) is based fundamentally in questioning the entire western hemispheres current understanding of the situation. and like i keep bringing up, the west has more or less free media. if there was a dichotomy in understanding the situation in ukraine now, we would hear about it. but there is no second opinion. canada, the US, the uk, germany, france, switzerland, austria, poland, romania, hungary and many other countries have all adopted the same position. if you're willing to ignore the entire world and believe only the actor who is being accused of wrongdoing, you can't be surprised when people aren't interested in justifying your delusion by arguing against it. if i tried to argue against what putin is saying, i'd be legitimizing the belief that he isn't lying completely and wholeheartedly, which doesn't represent what I think, or what most in the west think. russia is adopting an increasingly isolationist policy, and they're more and more willing to alienate the existing powers in international diplomacy in the belief that they can go it alone. the soviet union tried this before. maybe putin will succeed with his predecessors have failed.
When you list those countries I just see it as the west. As NATO. I do not see the whole world. Nor does appeals to what you think most people think work for me. Western media is all corporations. That itself is the bias. A bias that puts it on the right side of the: communist-capitalist spectrum. The west had no right to send politicians to Kiev during the protests and groom the now radical right sector people in power. And I am telling you, the grassroots dissent has been hijacked by a new set of crooks, this time backed by the west, get rid of them or you'll see how bad the economy and life will get! If you hate oligarchs and corruption then you'll get rid of them. Remember, this system of corruption, Putin himself mentions in the press conference saying how he is fighting this in Russia but how also it has been more severe in Ukraine. He is fighting for the grassroots, and the grassroots hate the oligarchs and corrupt power seekers. And before you remind me, yes Putin did do unconstitutional or undemocratic methods in his fight against the bad guys. He even made sure he could stay in power longer and keep on fighting. This is just like the Cold War. Russia would do one thing and BOOM our media would go nuts over it and everyone in the west would get a warm feeling inside of how we are fighting the bad guy. It was false then and it is especially false now. Western Ukrainians and Eastern Ukrainians need to talk and come together, learn why each others side put up different flags. Ukrainians then need to have rounds of elections and hopefully after the dust settles Ukraine will be a non-aligned state. DO NOT LET THESE NATIONALISTS IN POWER NOW DO ANYTHING or you'll have a Yugoslav civil war.
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Old 03-05-2014, 07:35 PM   #71
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Us state dept just made a press release

Fact Sheet
Office of the Spokesperson
Washington, DC
March 5, 2014

As Russia spins a false narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine, the world has not seen such startling Russian fiction since Dostoyevsky wrote, “The formula ‘two plus two equals five’ is not without its attractions.”

Below are 10 of President Vladimir Putin’s recent claims justifying Russian aggression in the Ukraine, followed by the facts that his assertions ignore or distort.

1. Mr. Putin says: Russian forces in Crimea are only acting to protect Russian military assets. It is “citizens’ defense groups,” not Russian forces, who have seized infrastructure and military facilities in Crimea.

The Facts: Strong evidence suggests that members of Russian security services are at the heart of the highly organized anti-Ukraine forces in Crimea. While these units wear uniforms without insignia, they drive vehicles with Russian military license plates and freely identify themselves as Russian security forces when asked by the international media and the Ukrainian military. Moreover, these individuals are armed with weapons not generally available to civilians.

2. Mr. Putin says: Russia’s actions fall within the scope of the 1997 Friendship Treaty between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.

The Facts: The 1997 agreement requires Russia to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Russia’s military actions in Ukraine, which have given them operational control of Crimea, are in clear violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.

3. Mr. Putin says: The opposition failed to implement the February 21 agreement with former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

The Facts: The February 21 agreement laid out a plan in which the Rada, or Parliament, would pass a bill to return Ukraine to its 2004 Constitution, thus returning the country to a constitutional system centered around its parliament. Under the terms of the agreement, Yanukovych was to sign the enacting legislation within 24 hours and bring the crisis to a peaceful conclusion. Yanukovych refused to keep his end of the bargain. Instead, he packed up his home and fled, leaving behind evidence of wide-scale corruption.

4. Mr. Putin says: Ukraine’s government is illegitimate. Yanukovych is still the legitimate leader of Ukraine.

The Facts: On March 4, President Putin himself acknowledged the reality that Yanukovych “has no political future.” After Yanukovych fled Ukraine, even his own Party of Regions turned against him, voting to confirm his withdrawal from office and to support the new government. Ukraine’s new government was approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament, with 371 votes – more than an 82% majority. The interim government of Ukraine is a government of the people, which will shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that will allow all Ukrainians to have a voice in the future of their country.

5. Mr. Putin says: There is a humanitarian crisis and hundreds of thousands are fleeing Ukraine to Russia and seeking asylum.

The Facts: To date, there is absolutely no evidence of a humanitarian crisis. Nor is there evidence of a flood of asylum-seekers fleeing Ukraine for Russia. International organizations on the ground have investigated by talking with Ukrainian border guards, who also refuted these claims. Independent journalists observing the border have also reported no such flood of refugees.

6. Mr. Putin says: Ethnic Russians are under threat.

The Facts: Outside of Russian press and Russian state television, there are no credible reports of any ethnic Russians being under threat. The new Ukrainian government placed a priority on peace and reconciliation from the outset. President Oleksandr Turchynov refused to sign legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers have filed petitions attesting that their communities have not experienced threats. Furthermore, since the new government was established, calm has returned to Kyiv. There has been no surge in crime, no looting, and no retribution against political opponents.

7. Mr. Putin says: Russian bases are under threat.

The Facts: Russian military facilities were and remain secure, and the new Ukrainian government has pledged to abide by all existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. It is Ukrainian bases in Crimea that are under threat from Russian military action.

8. Mr. Putin says: There have been mass attacks on churches and synagogues in southern and eastern Ukraine.

The Facts: Religious leaders in the country and international religious freedom advocates active in Ukraine have said there have been no incidents of attacks on churches. All of Ukraine’s church leaders, including representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, have expressed support for the new political leadership, calling for national unity and a period of healing. Jewish groups in southern and eastern Ukraine report that they have not seen an increase in anti-Semitic incidents.

9. Mr. Putin says: Kyiv is trying to destabilize Crimea.

The Facts: Ukraine’s interim government has acted with restraint and sought dialogue. Russian troops, on the other hand, have moved beyond their bases to seize political objectives and infrastructure in Crimea. The government in Kyiv immediately sent the former Chief of Defense to defuse the situation. Petro Poroshenko, the latest government emissary to pursue dialogue in Crimea, was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada.

10. Mr. Putin says: The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists.

The Facts: The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:02 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
Us state dept just made a press release

Fact Sheet
Office of the Spokesperson
Washington, DC
March 5, 2014

As Russia spins a false narrative to justify its illegal actions in Ukraine, the world has not seen such startling Russian fiction since Dostoyevsky wrote, “The formula ‘two plus two equals five’ is not without its attractions.”

Below are 10 of President Vladimir Putin’s recent claims justifying Russian aggression in the Ukraine, followed by the facts that his assertions ignore or distort.

1. Mr. Putin says: Russian forces in Crimea are only acting to protect Russian military assets. It is “citizens’ defense groups,” not Russian forces, who have seized infrastructure and military facilities in Crimea.

The Facts: Strong evidence suggests that members of Russian security services are at the heart of the highly organized anti-Ukraine forces in Crimea. While these units wear uniforms without insignia, they drive vehicles with Russian military license plates and freely identify themselves as Russian security forces when asked by the international media and the Ukrainian military. Moreover, these individuals are armed with weapons not generally available to civilians.

provide evidence plz, who is saying they are anti-ukraine and not just pro-crimea, show evidence of plates, show footage, what weapons do civilians not have access to that the Russians only do

2. Mr. Putin says: Russia’s actions fall within the scope of the 1997 Friendship Treaty between Ukraine and the Russian Federation.

The Facts: The 1997 agreement requires Russia to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Russia’s military actions in Ukraine, which have given them operational control of Crimea, are in clear violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.

What is defacto control if soldiers of Ukraine in Crimea are pledging in the thousands an oath to protect Crimea. What clear violation of Territory of military when there was already military stationed in Crimea under Ukrainian legal lease.

3. Mr. Putin says: The opposition failed to implement the February 21 agreement with former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.

The Facts: The February 21 agreement laid out a plan in which the Rada, or Parliament, would pass a bill to return Ukraine to its 2004 Constitution, thus returning the country to a constitutional system centered around its parliament. Under the terms of the agreement, Yanukovych was to sign the enacting legislation within 24 hours and bring the crisis to a peaceful conclusion. Yanukovych refused to keep his end of the bargain. Instead, he packed up his home and fled, leaving behind evidence of wide-scale corruption.

leaving out what the protestors also agreed too. Which was to stop occupying government buildings. Which escalated in protestors and police dying. Resulting in the takeover by armed protestors of parliament. Yeah he fled. Also, Being guilty of corruption doesn't make democratic process null and void. You can't just take over parliament, find or just say you have evidence of corruption, and throw out constitutional procedures. Investigate, Indite him, fight in court, impeach, elections.

4. Mr. Putin says: Ukraine’s government is illegitimate. Yanukovych is still the legitimate leader of Ukraine.

The Facts: On March 4, President Putin himself acknowledged the reality that Yanukovych “has no political future.” After Yanukovych fled Ukraine, even his own Party of Regions turned against him, voting to confirm his withdrawal from office and to support the new government. Ukraine’s new government was approved by the democratically elected Ukrainian Parliament, with 371 votes – more than an 82% majority. The interim government of Ukraine is a government of the people, which will shepherd the country toward democratic elections on May 25th – elections that will allow all Ukrainians to have a voice in the future of their country.

How can the interim government of the people of Ukraine not include Ukrianians living in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. Why did the supporters of the President of Ukraine in Parliament just switch sides like that. When an entire party is corrupt then so too is a part of parliament. Who is paying them now to take orders hmmmm? Who is giving MPs a political future if they cooperate?

5. Mr. Putin says: There is a humanitarian crisis and hundreds of thousands are fleeing Ukraine to Russia and seeking asylum.

The Facts: To date, there is absolutely no evidence of a humanitarian crisis. Nor is there evidence of a flood of asylum-seekers fleeing Ukraine for Russia. International organizations on the ground have investigated by talking with Ukrainian border guards, who also refuted these claims. Independent journalists observing the border have also reported no such flood of refugees.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/crimea-chao...-weeks-1438545. RT news and Russia is saying it, and its being picked up elsewhere. At the same type western outlets are reporting speculation that Russia is trying to make it up to justify intervention. plz though show me these international organizations, and some guards being talked to on TV. Is this going to really turn into a, Its true!, No its not!.

6. Mr. Putin says: Ethnic Russians are under threat.

The Facts: Outside of Russian press and Russian state television, there are no credible reports of any ethnic Russians being under threat. The new Ukrainian government placed a priority on peace and reconciliation from the outset. President Oleksandr Turchynov refused to sign legislation limiting the use of the Russian language at regional level. Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers have filed petitions attesting that their communities have not experienced threats. Furthermore, since the new government was established, calm has returned to Kyiv. There has been no surge in crime, no looting, and no retribution against political opponents.

fact that the interirm government full of "right sector" people many of whom wear neo nazi symbols. These people can be found on tv publicly bragging about hating Russians, Jews, Communists. And one of the first things they did when in power was to limit language rights of a ethnicity that's Russian. One of the FIRST things. Whiiich was a biiiiig mistake and now your doing damage control you evil ****ing puppet government. A crack was revealed in your pro western party in Ukraine and its one you can't present to the world because it'll show how blatant the west wants its interests over all others, and will support anyone who will just give in to western demands. Keep trying to build up your facade of being champion of the people and democracy, I am sure a lot of children listen.

7. Mr. Putin says: Russian bases are under threat.

The Facts: Russian military facilities were and remain secure, and the new Ukrainian government has pledged to abide by all existing international agreements, including those covering Russian bases. It is Ukrainian bases in Crimea that are under threat from Russian military action.

show me where he says that. show me what proves Ukrainian ones are. Is it because you already want people to think Putin wants to invade.

8. Mr. Putin says: There have been mass attacks on churches and synagogues in southern and eastern Ukraine.

The Facts: Religious leaders in the country and international religious freedom advocates active in Ukraine have said there have been no incidents of attacks on churches. All of Ukraine’s church leaders, including representatives of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate, have expressed support for the new political leadership, calling for national unity and a period of healing. Jewish groups in southern and eastern Ukraine report that they have not seen an increase in anti-Semitic incidents.

[B]show me where Putin says this. New neo nazis are roaming the streets arms in Kiev and there has been a coup in the minds of many people. But your right US government, you talked to all of civil and political society in Ukraine and they said everything is fine and dandy. There is not need for Russian forces to be on alert to defend Pro-Russians. No need at all. Russia is illegal because there is nothing wrong going on in Ukraine at all. Hey US, do you not have a history of funding NGOs and other civil society groups in other countries as a means to destabilize governments you are against? Yes, oh yes US does and that list has included Venezuela and Russia. From funding anti castro terrorist groups through USAID to funding NGOs in Russia to sow discontent. /B]


9. Mr. Putin says: Kyiv is trying to destabilize Crimea.

The Facts: Ukraine’s interim government has acted with restraint and sought dialogue. Russian troops, on the other hand, have moved beyond their bases to seize political objectives and infrastructure in Crimea. The government in Kyiv immediately sent the former Chief of Defense to defuse the situation. Petro Poroshenko, the latest government emissary to pursue dialogue in Crimea, was prevented from entering the Crimean Rada.

this is US state department and you posting this here to what make clear how Ukrainian TV and mass media and US government as well as the rest of the West is in such alliance? Yeah a fact sheet with your entire side doing and looking good.

10. Mr. Putin says: The Rada is under the influence of extremists or terrorists.

The Facts: The Rada is the most representative institution in Ukraine. Recent legislation has passed with large majorities, including from representatives of eastern Ukraine. Far-right wing ultranationalist groups, some of which were involved in open clashes with security forces during the EuroMaidan protests, are not represented in the Rada. There is no indication that the Ukrainian government would pursue discriminatory policies; on the contrary, they have publicly stated exactly the opposite.
you know the Iraq war? I am sure they gave a similar Saddam fact sheet and we saw how hollow those lies were in the end. You know what a troll is? is professional liar, someone who can create an entire persona and identity all to perpetuate deception. Now think for the average human being who is generally positively inclined and open minded. Trolls take complete advantage of that. Now there will always be some who see the trollness and fight it. But please for the love of god, if you are trying to think the whole world is on your side then stop posting the most one sided trollness possible. Straight from the horses mouth no less. This thread doesn't need to hear what we hear already in our mass media. We know what the west says cause its says it the loudest and quickest. Just yesterday it was a full blown invasion of Ukraine with Putin about to press his new button he got from his parliament that says "invade" on it, while in reality Russian forces on the borders doing a military exercise were going back to base.
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:22 PM   #73
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Might be to good to be true but there is a leaked conversation between Estonian foreign minister concerning the nature of the situation and most importantly the nature of the snipers that the west has been telling us were controlled by Yanukovych



If we recall it was this escalation of the crack down on protestors by snipers that prompted the massive western support from both the media and the west for the cause of the protestors. This new evidence suggests that the snipers were killing people on both sides. If this is in fact correct, then it implies that the media coup the west attempted in Venezuela in 2002 has been tried here in Ukraine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Ve...mpt#Media_role. In essence, if there is a government in power that you as the west do not want then, as the west you can try to use that nations own media outlets that are anti-government to spin footage as to implicate the government you don't like as bad. That way, when the opposition people you support on the ground take over power in a coup you can defend their actions as a populous uprising against oppression.

In the case of Venezuela pro western media inside Venezuela only showed government supporters firing guns and then cut to anti government protestors being shot on a street below. The blame was on the government and its reported snipers. Independant footage clearly showed later that the people killing were on a rooftop and that pro government supporters were shooting at them in self defense. John Pilger has a good documentary about this http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle18236.htm . Western media reported it as such and when shortly later a coup d'tat from anti government protestors occurred the US government immediately recognized that government and gave support. THREE days later Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez was put back into power BY THE PEOPLE, by massive pro government supporters who they say they voted democratically for Chavez to be in power. This is a very short summery, but watch it to understand how the west can instrument coups without even using their own military.

Alot of similarities here in Ukraine. 1. Western support of opposition 2. Protests held by both supporters and opponents of government 3. Escalation of violence whereby the government was blamed by 4. Opposition takes over control

Now .5 is missing because no one is arguing that the president of Ukraine was anything of the democratic and popular caliber of Hugo Chavez, and that the people should go to KIEV and put him back into power. Nonetheless, 1-4 is total mirror. Ukrainians need to get this information and understand the role of the west. They must not give into their hopes of change and replace one set of crooks with another and find out later when its too late. People wanting change must restrain this interim government and get election platforms built.
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:52 PM   #74
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lol, shut the **** up about the right sector man. you know that the president of ukraine that this "illegitimate government of neo nazi's" put in place is jewish, right?

your position is this: disregard all facts. everything the west says is a lie. everything putin says is true.
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:27 AM   #75
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lol, shut the **** up about the right sector man. you know that the president of ukraine that this "illegitimate government of neo nazi's" put in place is jewish, right?

your position is this: disregard all facts. everything the west says is a lie. everything putin says is true.
And the governors, the heads of ministries, the cabinet, parliament, who are they all. And this appointed one is the same one McCain met in December.http://www.thestar.com/news/world/20...l_rallies.html . Also, is it called internal interference when another nations politician comes to talk to your governments opposition?

So you say. You come here and post US state department fact sheet. A department that has been proven to be dead wrong to the point of supporting coups and interventions around the world (Iraq), scores of countries being put under elitist interests. You come here and try to post US state department source, something so reputably FUBAR, and suggest that I am the one disregarding the facts.

Listen brother. You made it clear, you are pro-western Ukrainian guy. You admit the US lies and manipulations and the overthrows of other governments of other democratic and sovereign countries; and you think that this time in UKRAINE they have the interests of the people? of democracy? You must think that everyone outside the group, you think and believe are a part of, doesn't understand what your fighting for and doing. So you are inclined to defend the ones who are defending you= which is the west. We agree that the west is corrupt and an imperialist empire and you are now defending them because their interests of having you pro-westerners in power, is your interests as well. Bro, you wish you spoke for all of Ukraine. And I am in solidarity for the Ukrainians in Ukraine who have to now deal with this sort of mentality being witnessed by propr'one.

For all you 90s born kids who have witnessed the following western interventions and interferences in other countries affairs, let us laughingly praise the god of hope for those who try to believe, that a pattern of a history that stretches more than two decades will stop, where of all places do some hope this will occur? Ukraine. Yes Ukraine. Let us hope that western nation building and democracy and economic ideology, fairs better than it has before.

Yugoslav civil war
Kosovo
Panama
Somalia
Congo
Afghanistan
Venezuela
Iraq
Egypt
Libya
Syria
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