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Old 03-06-2014, 02:22 AM   #76
South
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http://www.democracynow.org/2014/3/3..._the_unrest_in



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Old 03-06-2014, 03:56 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
but you too vitaliy are guilty of the same hypocrisy i just accused south of, and putin of. i know you understand the situation better than to say that there are "russians" on one side and "banderites" on the other. This simply isn't true, and such broad generalizations don't accurately describe the gamut of ideology that exists in ukraine today.
OK but you're still ignoring what I'm saying about corruption. If the "west" is wrong and the "russians" are wrong then who is right?

How do you explain this?

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...gs-338507.html

Estonia, a EU member is saying that Yanukovitch was not behind the protestor shootings and it was orchestrated by the opposition.

“What was disturbing is that the same snipers ...killed people on both sides. She (Bohomolets) showed me some photos. She said that as a medical doctor she could tell it was the same handwriting, the same type of bullets and it's really disturbing that now the new coalition, they don't want to investigate what exactly happened,” Paet tells Ashton. “There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovych. It was somebody from the new coalition.”

Bohomolets promoted and arranged the protests herself, btw
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:53 PM   #78
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What I find so hypocritical is how Kosovo gets to illegally declare independence, but Crimea which is more historically part of Russia, has no parliamentary right to vote to join Russia. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26475508. What happened to western countries saying people should be allowed to vote on independence and autonomy? They said it for the Falklands and Kosovo but when it isn't in their interests its painted a violation of sovereignty. How stupid do they think we are.

On top of all this WESTERN MEDIA is TOTALLY ignoring the Estonia leaks. WHY? because it doesn't fit in the 2-3 weeks of western media narratives of, Russia being the bad guys and the revolution not being a coup. Free press my ****ing ass. This is blatant propaganda now, straight up ignoring relevant news because it doesn't fit what they have been fed. Cold War blackout.

I even called CBC because I wanted to know why this leaked phone call that is being confirmed http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...w-leaders.html isn't being picked up for 2 days now....but they are clueless of the story. Western honor and dignity are non existent when its sold to corporations. Harper has stated he will not recognize Crimea independence. Lets see what the people of southern and eastern Ukraine decide now.
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Old 03-07-2014, 02:39 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by South View Post

Yugoslav civil war
Kosovo
Panama
Somalia
Congo
Afghanistan
Venezuela
Iraq
Egypt
Libya
Syria

Looks like what goes around comes around. I was in Bosnia in the summer of 2013, and I also wanted to see the hospital where I was born. I had a small chit chat with the doctors. To make the story short, they told me that Usa, Canada and other NATO countries had dumped so much uranium that they have babies being born with two or three heads? Think about that for a second. The Bosnian extremists wanted us Serbs and Croats catholics out, but they could only wipe out 2m people with the Nato, but that did not work. The situation with Kosovo is the identical. Albanian mafia paid NATO to drive out the Christians (Serbs) in the middle of Europe in the 21st century, and now you have the same people point the fingers at Vladimir Putin

Someone is going to say; "why am I saying this", but it is clear that these guys lost all the credibility.

I wish the oridinary people luck with everything in Ukraine and that part of the World.
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Old 03-07-2014, 08:14 AM   #80
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I know it's very hard to undestand the role of US, EU and Russia in the crisis Ukraine is now facing, so let me try and explain everything fairly.

Firstly, the demonstrations in Independence Square were touched off when the riot police attacked 400 peaceful students demonstrating against Yanukovych. That act angered tens of thousands of ordinary people who flooded into Maidan. From there the demonstrations broadened. There were and remain several different groupings there that had different demands pertaining to the governance of Ukraine.

Very prominent in the Maidan were Svoboda and the Right Sector. Svoboda is a neo-fascist ultranationalist political party that is centered in Western Ukraine particularly in Lviv. The Right Sector is very similar but I don't think they have any deputies in the Rada. These groups however are very violent, antisemitic and antiRussian. They talk about being democratic, but it's just talk. We need to understand though that these forces while well organized are not well respected or liked by the majority of Ukrainians.

The main problem with these groups is that they call for a "racially pure" Ukraine, not substantively different than what the Nazis in Germany slaughtered millions to achieve. These people are extremely dangerous and we can't allow anyone to whitewash their history or propaganda. Svoboda founder Andriy Parubiy is the Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council while Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh is his deputy. Svoboda ideologue Yuriy Mykhalchyshyn even founded the Joseph Goebbels Political Research Center in 2005

Worst of all, these groups are used by both pro EU and pro US oligarchs that want to break away from Russia's general control of Ukraine's economy and to give themselves more room internationally both politically and economically.

When Yanukovych even before this crisis began was a much reviled person throughout all of Ukraine. When you think about it his support rating was low even in 2011, but he won for one reason and for one reason only, and that's because Ukrainians didn't want to see more of the Tymoshenko government. He split because he realized that the reversion to the 2004 Constitution would on the one hand strip him, his sons and clique of both their political authority but also of their ability to siphon off the wealth of the country into their own pockets. I think he also realized he'd be prosecuted.

When he left his party The Party of Regions (whose strength comes from the industrial heartland of Eastern and Southeastern Ukraine and from the predominately ethnic Russians of Crimea, Odessa, etc). They essentially saw the handwriting on the wall. Either they'd admit to their mistakes (which they did) or they'd be thrown out of office and they'd loose their ability to further enrich themselves. They chose the former, stripped Yanukovych of his elected presidency on the pretext that he abandoned his post (true) and formed a coalition interim government with the Fatherland Party (the interim president's party which is a combo party with Yulia Tymenshenko's deputies Svoboda , etc).

This new grouping was seen rapidly betraying the Ukrainian people even those that are staying in the Maidan "to keep the politician's accountable" although they don't have a clue. This new grouping immediately passed a law that stripped the ethnic Russians of their minority language rights (11,300,000+ people). Not mentioned was that Crimean Tartars (who real forcibly removed from Crimea by Stalin) also lost their language rights as did all other minority language groups, This drove ethnic Russians bonkers. Sure, they repealed the law but the damage was done.

Now Russian Ukrainians are screaming even louder over the influence of the fascists and neo-fascist elements in the Maidan and now felt that they were going to be completely marginalized and put under the boot of ultranationalist Ukrainians - remember that Russian lost between 50 to 80 million people in the war against German fascism so what they were witnessing represented for them a dreadful reminder of their shared history.

Those actions by the Rada triggered the demonstrations in the Crimea (which I think were probably also fomented by Russian Russians in Sebastopol. Then Russia invades Crimea and morons like the guy in Donetsk proclaim a separatist government.

The activities in Independence Square even with fascist participation were and remain overwhelmingly democratic and mass democratic at that. Basically only time will tell as to what the new government elected in May 25 will do. The good news is that even if what we get won't be as rosy, at least it will be better than what we've seen in the past 25 years.
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Old 03-07-2014, 11:51 AM   #81
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Vitaliy,

That's a more or less accurate statement. My problems with it are that you are again overstating the influence of the svoboda and pravij sektor movements in euromaidan. As a wild hypothetical, what % of the people on the maidan at the height of the revolution, would identify themselves with either of these groups?

The russian language laws were enacted last year, they aren't some longstanding tradition that has been overturned brashly by the new government. I do agree that they should have waited to make decisions on that matter until after the new elections. Ethnic ukrainians often argue that these laws are unnecessary, as there is no risk to russian speakers in ukraine of losing their language, as a matter of fact the opposite is much more likely. Having said that, as you know, i support the rights of russian speaking ukrainians, and as i said earlier, i think they should've waited to have a mandate before tackling the issue of language laws.

If you want to talk about "dreadful reminders of history," the russian led USSR murdered between 5-10 (most estimates put it around 6) million ethnic ukrainians between 1932-1933 in the Holodomor genocide. It was after this that ukrainian fascism had a resurgence, and that was because hitler had promised independence from a state that tried to exterminate us.

Let me ask you another question vitaliy. If tymoshenko wins a flat majority in may, how will your position change? (for the record, i hope this doesn't happen, as i think ukraine deserves a better leader without a history of corruption, although such a candidate may not exist in
ukraine).


finally as a response to what the Bulgarian UN delegate said, i can't say definitively one way or another. Yes, it is possible that the snipers were not hired by yanukovich. But there is no evidence that they were hired by the opposition either. There is actually no evidence at all of who was responsible, and only limited evidence that one party was responsible for the violence against both sides. Having said all that, obviously a full investigation must be launched immediately to determine what happened. Ultimately this changes very little, as yanukovich's berkut had killed many people before the sniper attacks in kiev, and even if it turns out the snipers weren't acting under his authority, it wouldn't make him any less guilty of murder.
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Old 03-07-2014, 12:58 PM   #82
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Hey guys,

I am from Ukraine and have all my family in Ukraine. I can answer any questions or give unbiased insight to what's going on.

The many claims that the revolution was made by fascists and nazis is absurd. Sure, there may have been a few extremists there. But, at the height of any mass movement or revolution/anti government protests there are always small groups are try to push themselves into the spotlight to promote their name. The russian government is committing terrible acts right now of provocations.

The whole issue with the Russian language being banned - ITS NOT BANNED. The former gov't wanted to make it an official state language. The official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian. What you do on the street, at home, in the store, what books you read, etc - no one gives a shit.

Any questions, I can answer.
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Old 03-07-2014, 05:39 PM   #83
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BREAKING! Armed Soldiers Ram Truck Through Gates Takeover Military Base In Ukraine



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Old 03-07-2014, 07:55 PM   #84
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Vitaliy,

That's a more or less accurate statement. My problems with it are that you are again overstating the influence of the svoboda and pravij sektor movements in euromaidan. As a wild hypothetical, what % of the people on the maidan at the height of the revolution, would identify themselves with either of these groups?

doesn't matter what percentage, the "overstated" influence of the right is now in power. Western politicians met opposition leaders in December and they are the same ones now in power.

The russian language laws were enacted last year, they aren't some longstanding tradition that has been overturned brashly by the new government. I do agree that they should have waited to make decisions on that matter until after the new elections. Ethnic ukrainians often argue that these laws are unnecessary, as there is no risk to russian speakers in ukraine of losing their language, as a matter of fact the opposite is much more likely. Having said that, as you know, i support the rights of russian speaking ukrainians, and as i said earlier, i think they should've waited to have a mandate before tackling the issue of language laws.

Listen keep waving that black and red flag. If those nationalists during WW2 fought the Russians by collaborating with Nazi Germany, then they are equivalent USTASHI.

If you want to talk about "dreadful reminders of history," the russian led USSR murdered between 5-10 (most estimates put it around 6) million ethnic ukrainians between 1932-1933 in the Holodomor genocide. It was after this that ukrainian fascism had a resurgence, and that was because hitler had promised independence from a state that tried to exterminate us.

Here is another history of Russia and Ukraine. Its called the Kievan Rus. Russia and Ukraine are completely tied from both the countries beginning


Let me ask you another question vitaliy. If tymoshenko wins a flat majority in may, how will your position change? (for the record, i hope this doesn't happen, as i think ukraine deserves a better leader without a history of corruption, although such a candidate may not exist in
ukraine).

How do we feel about Kosovo. I am sure their elected leader won flat out.

finally as a response to what the Bulgarian UN delegate said, i can't say definitively one way or another. Yes, it is possible that the snipers were not hired by yanukovich. But there is no evidence that they were hired by the opposition either. There is actually no evidence at all of who was responsible, and only limited evidence that one party was responsible for the violence against both sides. Having said all that, obviously a full investigation must be launched immediately to determine what happened. Ultimately this changes very little, as yanukovich's berkut had killed many people before the sniper attacks in kiev, and even if it turns out the snipers weren't acting under his authority, it wouldn't make him any less guilty of murder.

Explain to me why western mass media STILL haven't addressed the phone call. You at the beginning of this thread were calling Yanukovich alot of things because of his snipers. It was the February 20-21st killings by snipers, after an agreement was signed by all party's, that gave media justification for defacto coup. As for the EVIDENCE that it was opposition, the phone call explicitly mentions that guy saying "it was not Yanukovich, it was from new coalition". Where is your full investigation if the western media isn't even acknowledging its existence yet. You understand two party's, President vs opposition, have been fighting each other for months and then suddenly the media tells us that "the president is shooting protestors with snipers", which immediatly precipitates into a coup by the opposition. Now it turns out those snipers were part of a third party or opposition. You just don't get it.
You are in denial over western involvement. Go read your earlier posts. It is blatantly obvious now, western media position is so weak that they can't afford to even address the phone call leak that puts into question the entire justification for coup. A justification for western support of opposition, the western condemnation of Yanukovich, the western recognition of democracy while a coup was going on. Venezuela 2002. Look into it. The western media was a pawn then by the west and it is now. You really need to ask why in your so called belief of free press of the west that they choose to hide from the whole world that phone call. And at least RT news, unlike any other online news I see, has a calender whereby you can go back and see ALL the headlines and news articles they put out before. That is called putting your money where your mouth is. RT makes its stance clear to everyone and for everyone. YOU have the choice of pointing out those lies. Go look up an article and tell me the blatant lies. Here is February 21st, after the agreement was signed, http://rt.com/news/ukraine-president...agreement-114/

"Ukraine's President Viktor Yanukovich and opposition leaders have signed an EU brokered agreement on ending the political crisis in the country.

The Ukrainian opposition representatives included the leader of the UDAR political party, Vitaly Klitschko, the head of the Batkivshchyna opposition party, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, and the leader of the nationalist Svoboda opposition party, Oleg Tyagnibok. "

And here are the ones in power now. Look what their stance is.

"Leader of far-right group Right Sector, Dmitri Yarosh, told the protesters at Maidan Square Friday that the deal reached between the president and the opposition is not acceptable. Yarosh said that his group will not be putting down their arms until President Viktor Yanukovich resigns. “The Right Sector will not lay down its arms. The Right Sector will not remove the blockade of one of the government buildings until our most important requirement is fulfilled – the resignation of Yanukovich,” Unian quoted him as saying"
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Old 03-07-2014, 08:43 PM   #85
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Hey guys,

I am from Ukraine and have all my family in Ukraine. I can answer any questions or give unbiased insight to what's going on.

The many claims that the revolution was made by fascists and nazis is absurd. Sure, there may have been a few extremists there. But, at the height of any mass movement or revolution/anti government protests there are always small groups are try to push themselves into the spotlight to promote their name. The russian government is committing terrible acts right now of provocations.

The whole issue with the Russian language being banned - ITS NOT BANNED. The former gov't wanted to make it an official state language. The official language of Ukraine is Ukrainian. What you do on the street, at home, in the store, what books you read, etc - no one gives a shit.

Any questions, I can answer.
What part of ukraine are you from/is your family in?

My family is from lviv on one side and rivne on the other.
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Old 03-10-2014, 07:57 AM   #86
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What part of ukraine are you from/is your family in?

My family is from lviv on one side and rivne on the other.
Hey, I am from Kriviy Rih, Dnipropetrovska Oblast. I have family in Dnipropetrovsk and in Vinnitsya.
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Old 03-12-2014, 04:06 PM   #87
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cool, i've been to krivij rih.

looks like russia is planning a full-scale invasion of ukraine to the dnipro, likely at the end of the month after the plebiscite in crimea. i've always thought that ukraine was the most fertile land in europe because of all the blood that has been spilled on it in the last few thousand years. looks like our great-grandchildren too will have fertile land, provided putin doesn't exterminate us all first.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:31 PM   #88
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If you want to talk about "dreadful reminders of history," the russian led USSR murdered between 5-10 (most estimates put it around 6) million ethnic ukrainians between 1932-1933 in the Holodomor genocide.
Does Dzhugashvili sound like a Russian lastname to you?
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:41 AM   #89
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Ukrainian confronts soldiers gaurding the Ukrainian bases in Crimea.

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Old 03-13-2014, 12:43 AM   #90
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Does Dzhugashvili sound like a Russian lastname to you?
point taken

south, that video is clearly not taken by a ukrainian. real ukrainians would know you can get away with driving without a plate in ukraine, it will just cost you 20USD, or maybe a bottle.

everyone already knows there are russian soldiers in crimea. putin doesn't many any ****ing sense, he argued last they were armed militiamen not soldiers, and yet immediately before that he asked the russian duma for permission to send troops.
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