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Old 05-04-2015, 07:38 AM   #76
Razkal
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That guy in the white 323i was freaking me out as well, he was tailgating me so closely that I thought he was in the back seat with my son. If I had to break hard even once he would have hit me for sure. I really do not understand people sometimes and their lack of respect for others and their safety. Thank you to Jay and the other members of Max that made it an enjoyable day. Your hard work was definitely noted and even with the warnings you gave in the initial talk, some did not care to listen. Having been a Max member since '02, I must say that the crew was much more behaved back then... Now there are too many cowboys putting others in harms way.
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:16 AM   #77
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Here is the list of cars off the top of my head that I received at least 3 complaints about. This is not including the 1 or 2 time offenders, which I could rule out as personal vendetta.

Dark blue E90
Red E46 with the glitter stripes
Black E46 325ci
Black E46 with the red stripe
Burgundy E39
Gray 1 series (met a tree after driving dangerously, plenty of witnesses)
Chameleon wrap E46 coupe
Black E92 M3
White E90 323i

There are more but it's getting painful to bring up the memories of all the complaints I listened to. Almost every car there was its first time on our cruises and will hopefully be the last. Insanely reckless passing within the group and otherwise, dusting up gravel, cutting corners, tailgating, you name it. I have attempted to be civil and let people do as they want hoping for a reasonable result, but it's getting ridiculous.

Before leaving for the cruise, I really only gave three driving related warnings. Don't tailgate, watch the lines carefully due to gravel, and for the love of everything good do not pass on solid yellow lines. There were two collisions on the day both directly due to not following those short pieces of advice. Combine that reality with lack of reading comprehension on the maps (a system which I've used at every event since 2004 and people did fine in the past) and I really don't know what positive outcome came from a significant portion of the group joining the event.

Respect and basic guideline following has largely been thrown out. Expect major reform for the next event, if I even choose to go through with Midnight Cruise at this point. Massive discouragement after this weekend.

Again, thank you to the roughly half of the group who drove within their limits, did not endanger others, and overall showed any kind of respect for the people around them. You guys are why I continue to spend my time and money creating these events for no reason other than to share a good time. Unfortunately the bad apples are making the good part harder to realize.
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:32 AM   #78
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^Don't be discouraged dude there will always be morons I think what you have planned for the midnight cruise will keep the morons from catching up/showing up.

Should use the check points to send these guys away and tell them theyre not welcome back. Either way excited for the midnight cruise
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:34 AM   #79
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I had a great time Jay, and very much appreciate all your effort, including spending a whole day beforehand to drive the route.
I started near the back, got left behind at McD's due to my own chatting, and caught up at the next stop with a black wagon in transit with me. Directions worked perfectly. In the upper stages (507 & Dyno) being in the lead group was unbelievably fun, and safe and reasonable within our (high) limits. I was amazed when like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, Jay is doing 75kph when the only cop in the area pops out of the bushes, and observes a long line of BMWs driving under the limit. I'm sure he was amazed. On another note I was floor by how fast the locals drive up there.
Drive home from dinner was ummm, brisk.
Once again thanks to Jay.
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Old 05-04-2015, 09:38 AM   #80
hockeyfan27
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...OPP came and couldn't determine fault (so shared fault) and didn't lay any charges. I didn't wanna push too hard that it wasn't my fault and end up pissing the cop off and getting a careless ticket. Now I'm dealing with insurance...
Bad news.... Cops don't determine fault. Their charges weigh in to the equation (ie: fail to stop at red light) but if you rear ended somebody it is going to be 100% your fault.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:04 AM   #81
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Bad news.... Cops don't determine fault. Their charges weigh in to the equation (ie: fail to stop at red light) but if you rear ended somebody it is going to be 100% your fault.
Even if they turned out in front of you on a busy highway leaving you no room to stop?
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:08 AM   #82
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To be honest, I'm glad the driving behaviour is being brought up. It was my first cruise, but I've been a long-time lurker on these forums. I was expecting there to be spirited driving, but it got to the point where the speeds and what was happening around me made me nervous. I'm relieved to hear it is not normal.

I had the misfortune of being sandwiched between two of the above mentioned cars. The car in front was using all of the road on blind corners, perhaps failing to realize that oncoming drivers do exist outside the GTA. Since it was unsafe to pass during the stretch, I backed off a bit to give myself space in case he was to encounter one. The vehicle behind me must've been a colorectal surgeon, given by how far up my ass he was. Rather uncomfortable when you're carrying triple-digit speeds, you know the car behind is probably on all-seasons and the Canadian Shield is serving as your barriers in case things go sour.

On the bright side, the route was gorgeous. While at times a blur, my girlfriend and I throughly enjoyed the scenery. Not sure if it was Jay, but kudos to whoever forced us to slow down in spots to enjoy it.

Most of the people I met were friendly and were genuine enthusiasts. It was clear that a lot of hard work was put in, and I think the majority of the group appreciated it. It would be a shame to have to discontinue these events due to the bad apples. I'm not sure what can be done to avoid it (call me old fashioned...to me the threat of a serious accident or a stunt driving charge should be enough), but hopefully now that the discussion is in the open the community can set firmer ground rules as a group.

PS, my apologies to the angry E30 that may not have realized I braked hard upon spotting an oncoming unmarked OPP SUV. I was just trying to save our cars from being impounded that day. I hope my gesture signalling you to pass afterwards was enough to make up for it.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:23 AM   #83
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Hey Jay,

Just reading your comments. I haven't had the pleasure of joining one of the cruises yet, but please don't give up! I realize some people are boneheads, and there is always going to be a few. A suggestion would be in future postings for events, be really clear as to the expectations/rules of the event and if necessary, ask people to go home in the middle if they can't follow. If possible/practical, bring things to a stop and have words if necessary. It would be really unfortunate for a few bad apples to ruin what sounds like really great events.

Some of my own notes on behavior based on the Fall cruise - check out the one video, where the two guys are using merge lanes to pass etc. (I'd commented on this as well) - use stuff like this as an example of what NOT to do. As a teacher, I see it all the time - if you're not clear/explicit in terms of rules/expectations these days, a lot of people seldom think about these things and what might be proper. I know it's a pain in the ass, but it might help cut down on the crap.

Perhaps have a few people you trust act like cruise moderators - if bad behavior is seen, give them the authority to say something on behalf of the cruise.

As someone who drives around 50K km a year, some of the comments I've read are really distressing. My dad taught me how to navigate with just a map, and if people can't follow turn by turn directions WITH km between turns, then this isn't Jay's fault - learn how to follow direction and/or read a map. If you're not as good with it, take time to study the route before you leave. If you're following someone, for god sake, leave room! You don't have to be up someone's ass to follow - not to mention this is dangerous/illegal. Keep them in sight and you'll be fine. Of course, traffic and conditions will determine how much space you can leave yourself.

I really hope that the Midnight Cruise happens, as I'd love to come out.

Have a great day everyone... and may the fourth be with you!
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:35 AM   #84
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^I dont know how more explicit he can be when he gathers everyone around and tells them not to drive recklessly or not to pass on solid yellow lines?

People are just plain not listening. It's extremely clear at the beginning of each cruise.
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Old 05-04-2015, 10:49 AM   #85
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The truth is, that unless the cruise is invite only (which isn't going to do anything to help the community) there will always be a few dipshit drivers that show up. Those people will generally have attitude/ego problems so good luck trying to tell them to go home mid-cruise. The cruise is on public roads, so short of slashing their tires at one of the stops you can't force them to do anything.

The only thing you can control is the space you put between yourself and them. If someone in front of you is driving like an ass back off, if someone behind is right up your ass when there's an opportunity for them to pass lift off and point them by. If there's a huge line of cars behind you that you feel you might be holding up then pull over and chill for a minute or two. Ultimately you are in control of your enjoyment. You don't need to be up at the front to be having a good time.

I'll vouch for Jay's directions as well. He pre-runs the route to make sure the directions are good. I ran the spring cruise last year with no co-pilot and was able to manage the instructions on my own while driving and that was with no cars to follow because I left the lunch stop early to run the second half solo (We were about an hour behind schedule and I had to be back for an event that evening so I couldn't wait). Always reading ahead a few steps and doing a little bit of mental math to add up a some distances goes a long way.
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Old 05-04-2015, 11:18 AM   #86
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It looked like the Lexus club was having not much fun on Lake Drive...
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:11 PM   #87
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Even if they turned out in front of you on a busy highway leaving you no room to stop?
Before dashcams, yes. I would frequently see this with merging lanes: you get cut off by a guy trying to squeeze into your lane, then he stomps the brakes. You rear-end him. Your fault. (sucks!) Now, these days if you had video proving they created an impossible situation, you might get away with split fault (50/50) or not at fault depending on all the other factors the video would tell (your speed etc..).
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:15 PM   #88
rockstar93
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Before leaving for the cruise, I really only gave three driving related warnings. Don't tailgate, watch the lines carefully due to gravel, and for the love of everything good do not pass on solid yellow lines. There were two collisions on the day both directly due to not following those short pieces of advice.
This is a grossly inaccurate and ignorant statement to make.

I was not tailgating anybody and stuck to safe lines and passing (though the latter two would not have been factors anyway). The pickup was coming out of a gas station and cut me off turning onto the road which I had right of way on. There was oncoming traffic in the opposite lane and a steep ditch to the right leaving me no where to go.

Had I been tailgating the BMW in front it likely would have saved my car as the truck would not feel confident enough to cut in front of me. Had this been a result of any reckless driving on my part I would have been charged as such considering there was a video of the accident and multiple witnesses who said I was one of the BMWs who was driving civilly.

The biggest hit against me in the officers eyes was that I was part of a group that they had received multiple complaints about, including a man at the gas station who witnessed two Bimmers at the front of the pack go two wide on the street (with only one lane of traffic in each direction) line up and drag race.

I appreciate any and all work on your part in organizing this cruise, I don't think anything you could have done would have prevented what happened to me so I don't pass any of the blame past those directly involved in the collision. Up until this point I was having a good time, though I did notice a large majority of the group acting recklessly and the unfortunately reality of the situation is the actions of these few is a reflection on the entire group, in the eyes of the other drivers and pedestrians we passed as well as the police in the area. At the start of the cruise in the KC parking lot my dad and I were both impressed that you took the time to be so strict about following those 'rules' and we thought it would be a pretty good time, unfortunately most people didn't listen too well to what you were saying.

In my opinion it wasn't a perfect cruise, which I'm sure you should be able to understand as well. As many have said, there is not too much more you can do in your power to prevent certain things from happening, or be any more explicit than you were, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Hell, I think you could have gotten a paid police escort to close intersections and keep the group together, pass out the route information ahead of time, and threaten to kick 'bad apples' from the cruise and you would STILL get people acting immature. I wouldn't take anything that's said or that happened personally, but it certainly was not a perfect cruise.
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Old 05-04-2015, 12:53 PM   #89
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dude you rear ended someone. its always your fault. if the vehicle had enough time to merge into the lane (meaning you hit their rear as opposed to having t-boned them) you are expected to have had enough time to stop.

jay, if you ever organize a invite only cruise i'll come out. I was gonna bring the bike out this weekend but after these stories I'm glad I didn't.
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Old 05-04-2015, 02:28 PM   #90
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This is a grossly inaccurate and ignorant statement to make.

I was not tailgating anybody and stuck to safe lines and passing (though the latter two would not have been factors anyway). The pickup was coming out of a gas station and cut me off turning onto the road which I had right of way on. There was oncoming traffic in the opposite lane and a steep ditch to the right leaving me no where to go.

Had I been tailgating the BMW in front it likely would have saved my car as the truck would not feel confident enough to cut in front of me. Had this been a result of any reckless driving on my part I would have been charged as such considering there was a video of the accident and multiple witnesses who said I was one of the BMWs who was driving civilly.

The biggest hit against me in the officers eyes was that I was part of a group that they had received multiple complaints about, including a man at the gas station who witnessed two Bimmers at the front of the pack go two wide on the street (with only one lane of traffic in each direction) line up and drag race.

I appreciate any and all work on your part in organizing this cruise, I don't think anything you could have done would have prevented what happened to me so I don't pass any of the blame past those directly involved in the collision. Up until this point I was having a good time, though I did notice a large majority of the group acting recklessly and the unfortunately reality of the situation is the actions of these few is a reflection on the entire group, in the eyes of the other drivers and pedestrians we passed as well as the police in the area. At the start of the cruise in the KC parking lot my dad and I were both impressed that you took the time to be so strict about following those 'rules' and we thought it would be a pretty good time, unfortunately most people didn't listen too well to what you were saying.

In my opinion it wasn't a perfect cruise, which I'm sure you should be able to understand as well. As many have said, there is not too much more you can do in your power to prevent certain things from happening, or be any more explicit than you were, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. Hell, I think you could have gotten a paid police escort to close intersections and keep the group together, pass out the route information ahead of time, and threaten to kick 'bad apples' from the cruise and you would STILL get people acting immature. I wouldn't take anything that's said or that happened personally, but it certainly was not a perfect cruise.
Did you hit their fender? Door? Quarter panel? That would indicate they actually cut off your path with no chance for you to react. You hit them dead-center in the back. This means there would have been time for you to:

1. See you are in area with traffic and driveways
2. See them waiting to enter the roadway
3. See them begin to pull out into the road
4. See them complete their turn and begin pointing straight
5. See their brake lights

During all of this time, why didn't you reduce your speed to one that would allow you to stop if necessary? There doesn't need to be a valid reason for the person in front to stop at all, it is your responsibility to leave enough space to come to a full stop if needed. Multiple times up front on the cruise I had to come to almost a complete stop due to deep bumps, railway crossings, hell on the pre-cruise I had a turkey run in front of the car. Cars in front can stop for any reason from mechanical failure, to road debris, to the driver having a heart attack. Just because you're on the highway does not give you the right to continue at the speed you want.

I'm glad you're okay.

Conversely, the driver of the 1 series just called me to give a genuine, heartfelt apology and admittance of fault. This is unprecedented, and appreciated greatly by me. As a man, he realized his own faults and owned up to them. He promised to not attend future events and even wished that I continue to organize them for the rest of the group. Classy and humble.

Instead, you typed the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar93 View Post
Yeah totally, not that I blame anything that happened on the group or the cruise, it certainly didn't help. I felt like I had to drive like an idiot to keep up with the pack or fall back and lose my way.
This is 100% your fault, do not blame trying to keep up with the group as a reason to smash into cars. You have a list of every turn on the cruise. Patiently fall back and pass when it is safe to do so. The pace of those ahead of you should have zero bearing on your closing speed towards the car in front of you.

Since we're discussing owning up to reality as a man, I admit the cruise is not perfect. I strive to make every event the best that I can. I have been doing this for 12 years. That's over 40 cruises of experience, and knowing what people should and should not do. How can you look at an established event such as this and try to fault it for your own mistake? The last rear-end collision we had on a cruise to that extent of damage was during Midnight Cruise 2005. The truth came out later on when I was told that the driver was actually reading his phone and didn't notice traffic stop in front of him. Wrote off 2 cars and seriously hurt the innocent people in front. That was a decade ago. Our structure, rules, and even this route have changed little in those 10 years. Do you still think you're being unfairly blamed here?
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