Click to go to Forum Home Click to go to maXbimmer Home

Go Back   maXbimmer Forums > Supporting Events > Maxbimmer & Supporting Events
User Name
Password


Welcome to Maxbimmer.com!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 09-26-2016, 05:38 PM   #46
Mystikal
Moderator/Event-Coordinator
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Stance
Posts: 13,108


Thanks for coming out everyone. That was my favourite cruise route and group of people out ever, really. Had a blast!

I'm truly sorry for anyone who missed some of the route. I had it planned in a way that if you entered the address for the boat launch stop after lunch (a short 25 minute section) we would re-group there and then carry on along the quieter roads together as a single pack after the town and traffic broke us up. I tested the address and postal code in both Google maps as well as my GPS and it worked fine. I believe it was Road_runner in the E30 Touring telling me she watched the fast middle/rear pack take off ahead of her but she just stayed back and followed GPS until the boat launch (she arrived maybe 5 minutes after the lead pack). But, sadly a bunch of you never made it there after following the wrong person/people. And that sucks ass. I take responsibility.

Lessons learned, I will improve the event again. Thanks again!
__________________
Mystikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 07:57 PM   #47
Shock(/\)ave
3rd Gear Member
 
Shock(/\)ave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 593
Unhappy

Jay's route was excellent as always, and the changes made from the midnight cruise (including the northern meet point) allowed us to have fun on the cruise overall. Thanks for the work you put into these Jay.

It sadly wasn't much of a cruise for us, as we were outpaced by a huge degree by the rest of the cars due to our use of common sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doogee View Post
I unfortunately did not have a good experience and decided to leave shortly after the first stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doogee View Post
It was the people passing in front of oncoming traffic, on hills etc that turned me away. Too dangerous for me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullet Ride View Post
Same shit happens every year, only options are to not go on the cruise at all, or to just put space between yourself and the douchenozzles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by perryman View Post
Yeah, the uphill passing was starting to piss me off too. Putting yourself in danger is one thing, but taking someone else out because of your negligence is unacceptable.
I have no idea how there were no accidents or arrests on this cruise - I honestly think it's a miracle. I can't even use any of my GoPro footage with any other of the cruise attendees in it because it documents driving that would result in serious charges.

Here's some (not all) of the dangerous stupid shit that I witnessed: consistent doubling of the speed limit (or greater), passing on solid double yellow, passing on blind curves, passing uphill, stopping traffic on a blind curve to put distance between the group and the traffic ahead (putting those of us at the rear in danger) to start a drag race, forcing traffic to the shoulder due to dangerous passing, passing on the shoulder... the worst offenders were in E92 / E90 M3s and E46 M3s. The only way I could drive safely and without speeding 20+ over the limit was to abandon the idea of keeping up with the pack.

Am I the only one who knows how dangerous decreasing radius turns are when you're carrying that much speed? Traction control and fat tires aren't a substitute for using your brain!

This type of driving is what ruins this hobby and gives BMW drivers such a bad reputation. People could easily have died out there yesterday. Nobody cares about how expensive or fast your car is, they just care about avoiding the inevitable accident you'll end up in when your limited skills and the computers keeping you alive run out of luck.
__________________

Last edited by Shock(/\)ave; 09-26-2016 at 08:39 PM.
Shock(/\)ave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 08:25 PM   #48
Shock(/\)ave
3rd Gear Member
 
Shock(/\)ave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 593
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by perryman View Post
I still had a good time though, aside from being in the group that got lost and missing most of the route
Still don't know how that happened when the checkpoints were handed out. I know it's a lot more paper (and ink or toner), but we probably need to go back to route maps for the cruises like we used to use. Even without a co-pilot on the midnight cruises years ago I never got lost with the route map.

We need a cruise for people who just want to have a good time and enjoy the scenery.

The lead car really needs to set a reasonable pace for the rest of the pack. Having a car in the lead, middle, and rear of the pack keep in contact with their mobiles to report problems to the lead car would enable the cruise to be stopped and any offenders kicked out to calm things down if things get out of hand. It wouldn't take more than a couple of stops to get the point across and keep the others from getting stupid.

I want these cruises to work, badly, but they aren't going to if we can't deal with these lunatics. I guarantee you that the few people this internal policing would turn away would result in at least double the overall attendance. I'd actually feel comfortable bringing one of the cars in my signature, too, instead of leaving them in the garage.
__________________

Last edited by Shock(/\)ave; 09-26-2016 at 08:43 PM.
Shock(/\)ave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 09:21 PM   #49
Mystikal
Moderator/Event-Coordinator
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Stance
Posts: 13,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shock(/\)ave View Post
We need a cruise for people who just want to have a good time and enjoy the scenery.
That's really it right there. maXbimmer cruises have never been about that. I attended events from 2002 and have been organizing them since 2004. The scenic stuff is covered by Trillium BMW and other, different groups. We have always been as we are, mostly. Do I wish some of the passing I'm hearing about was calmed down? Absolutely. But I don't know who you are. You PM'd me for the meet address up north politely and have a ton to say here but I have no idea who you actually are. Speak up so I can have an opportunity to fix the issue when it's happening rather than form an essay afterwards. If lives were really as in danger as you say, why wouldn't you say something to try to prevent a death? That's unfortunate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shock(/\)ave View Post
I want these cruises to work, badly, but they aren't going to if we can't deal with these lunatics. I guarantee you that the few people this internal policing would turn away would result in at least double the overall attendance. I'd actually feel comfortable bringing one of the cars in my signature, too, instead of leaving them in the garage.
The cruises work great! We have no desire to double the attendance. We had triple back in the only-BMW-online-club-in-Toronto days, had the diluted experience, much enjoy the current numbers. 30-40 lunatics is ideal for a fun drive. I'm sorry you did not have one yourself yesterday and invite you to explore other groups that may offer more "cruisey" cruises. It's a big world of car clubs out there, as we all saw yesterday with the many groups of cars roaming. Don't let the group preference of one pack of maniacs ruin your hobby.

__________________
Mystikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 09:33 PM   #50
Shock(/\)ave
3rd Gear Member
 
Shock(/\)ave's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 593
Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
If lives were really as in danger as you say, why wouldn't you say something to try to prevent a death? That's unfortunate.
It's hard to argue with a GoPro, but I have no plans on getting anyone in any trouble. It would take a lot more than a few words to sort this out given the nature of the activity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
The cruises work great! We have no desire to double the attendance. We had triple back in the only-BMW-online-club-in-Toronto days, had the diluted experience, much enjoy the current numbers. 30-40 lunatics is ideal for a fun drive. I'm sorry you did not have one yourself yesterday and invite you to explore other groups that may offer more "cruisey" cruises. It's a big world of car clubs out there, as we all saw yesterday with the many groups of cars roaming. Don't let the group preference of one pack of maniacs ruin your hobby.

Fair enough.
__________________
Shock(/\)ave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 10:35 PM   #51
estoguy
3rd Gear Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 418
I know I wasn't there yesterday, but some comments on the above, based on my Cruise experiences:

A. The Max cruises are definitely more performance oriented rather than sightseeing. Perhaps this should be more bluntly stated when they are announced. Then people won't be surprised. Honestly, I felt this was the case before my first cruise last year, having read the previous Cruise threads, so I was prepared to step up my driving game.

B. These events will always bring out a few dicks. In my experience over a fall and spring cruise, the drivers that have come out have been competent and safe (given the type of driving). Yes, I've seen a few questionable things as well, but it's the exception, not the rule.

C. To Shockwave - I think you should post the video... if you've seen something that questionable, those drivers should be called out on it. Any really egregious things should be known so that those kinds of drivers can be kept away.
__________________
1986 325 ~Elsa~
Alpenweiss

Need a photographer, come visit my site: http://estoguy.wix.com/unique-perspectives

"The future is uncertain and the end is always near."
estoguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2016, 11:36 PM   #52
Bimmer Heaven
MaXsponsor
 
Bimmer Heaven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ontario
Posts: 15,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullet Ride View Post
Same shit happens every year, only options are to not go on the cruise at all, or to just put space between yourself and the douchenozzles.
That's what i had to do at the Bimmercrise 2 weeks ago, since the Benz (WTF!?) in front of me needed to peel out and drift at every stop sign, sending gravel all over the place...At one point even got separated for a bit.
__________________
BIMMER HEAVEN
Specialized in BMW recycling, all OEM used parts
Up to 90% off new cost!!!
Most models E30 E36 E46 E90 E92 E93 E28 E34 E39 E60 E61 E32 E38 E65 E66 X3 X5 M3 M5 Z4 F30 F32


Etobicoke location now open!!!!

Call 11-8PM 416 821-2578
New inventory daily. 70+ cars in stock!
Bimmer Heaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 08:36 AM   #53
doogee
6th Gear Member
 
doogee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ancaster
Posts: 3,542
Send a message via MSN to doogee
Quote:
Originally Posted by estoguy View Post
I know I wasn't there yesterday, but some comments on the above, based on my Cruise experiences:

A. The Max cruises are definitely more performance oriented rather than sightseeing. Perhaps this should be more bluntly stated when they are announced. Then people won't be surprised. Honestly, I felt this was the case before my first cruise last year, having read the previous Cruise threads, so I was prepared to step up my driving game.
There is a difference between being "performance oriented" and flat out breaking the law at all times.

-People were racing on the highway, well above impound speeds. (Leaders of the group)
-Driving at excessive speeds on roads with cyclists, people were at the end of their driveways screaming at us.
-I shouldn't have to drive like a complete douchebag in order to keep up. Passing every car I see on double solid lines etc.
-This is how people die.

I was told it would be different. I hadn't been on one of these for about 7 years. I'll never attend again. If anything, the driving has gotten much worse.

You guys need to do this stuff at the track. You're selfish for putting other peoples lives at risk. One day something really bad is going to happen. It's inevitable.
__________________


Dakar M3 Track Build Thread
doogee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 11:15 AM   #54
Mystikal
Moderator/Event-Coordinator
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Stance
Posts: 13,108
Quote:
Originally Posted by doogee View Post
There is a difference between being "performance oriented" and flat out breaking the law at all times.
Absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doogee View Post
-People were racing on the highway, well above impound speeds. (Leaders of the group)
I like how you shared one tiny part of what I openly admitted to you at the stop. My point of that sentence was that we had the cruise control on at 110-129 the entire way up the 400 and 11 except for one moment when there wasn't a single car to pass and we floored it. We slowed down to normal speeds before passing even one car, and it was shared to you as an exception to what happened overall and part of my surprise that you said you were doing 150 for a LONG time at the back to catch up. I might have hit 150 exactly once the entire way up, for a brief second. There was traffic everywhere. 150 would be dangerous and get us pulled over before Barrie. We were setting up for photos most of the way and cruising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doogee View Post
-Driving at excessive speeds on roads with cyclists, people were at the end of their driveways screaming at us.
Most of the roads had 80km/h posted speed limits and are by all accounts legal highways. Are cyclist not to reasonably expect traffic driving by? I didn't see anyone cut off any cyclists or hear about any issues there but I'm all ears for it. I cycle myself and would empathize fully. But I haven't heard anything besides this, that the cyclists were physically also on the roads. We've been screamed at for doing 40km/h along scenic waterfront roads in the past, some people just don't like crowds of loud cars on their street Sunday afternoon regardless of the driving. I empathize there too but I'm not going to stop driving on public roads to stop it.

I think I have a video or pic in my phone of you doing a standing burnout in a dense Markham residential neighbourhood at midnight, from this summer. Wouldn't that single event piss off way more people and get them on their driveways than the sparsely populated cottages and farms we passed by on Sunday?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doogee View Post
-I shouldn't have to drive like a complete douchebag in order to keep up. Passing every car I see on double solid lines etc.
There was no reason to "keep up" on the cruise. I gave out a simple list of 3 addresses to follow with meeting times and duration and all. As stated, the E30 chose not to follow the group and still got to the 1:15pm meet spot (which we arrived to at 1:15) at 1:20pm. The motivation to keep up is all your own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doogee View Post
-This is how people die.

I was told it would be different. I hadn't been on one of these for about 7 years. I'll never attend again. If anything, the driving has gotten much worse.

You guys need to do this stuff at the track. You're selfish for putting other peoples lives at risk. One day something really bad is going to happen. It's inevitable.
We had a rash of new members on their first cruises a few years back and ending with last Spring's cruise. The driving was much, much, much worse than it is now. There were a couple of collisions, each and every one by brand new members on their first cruise. Today the cruises are 80% people who have been attending them for 5+ years. They understand the idea of controlled risk taking, and in general the concept of driving to roads that are much less traveled to explore the performance of their cars. Is it a replacement for the track? Absolutely not. These are for people who enjoy, specifically, spirited driving on scenic roads with like-minded. If you don't like driving in a pack of mostly aggressive drivers you will never enjoy them. It's just not that type of club/cruise, and never has been mostly.

I am fully at peace with somebody making their own mistake and getting hurt. Are you thinking about what we are doing? These are, on average, like 400hp RWD cars on public streets with zero safety equipment, marshalls, healthcare nearby, the whole nine. I can't imagine looking at an event like this and thinking "yeah, that's totally safe". They're just not. Performance cars doing anything performance-like outside of a closed controlled environment is insane. And an insanity most of us here are okay with exploring on roads with little to crash into other than trees and your own sense of skill.

Again, I get it. These are not for everyone and do not aim to be. I think me focusing on scenic roads and patio lunch possibilities might be confusing what is, mostly, a driving event for people who like to drive quickly where the roads twist and the traffic dips. It's not perfect. It's not truly safe. And like anything fun in a car, it never will be. For the most safety while still exploring go up there with a rough plan and a few friends you trust. These are parties on the road with randoms. It's inherently nuts. But it hasn't changed in 7 years, you likely just grew up. 6 years ago I watched you street race on public roads without hesitation, and get pulled over for it. We all do stupid things and eventually decide to stop doing them. Not attending cruises might be one of the mature decisions you make now. And that's cool!

Take care, Kurt.
__________________
Mystikal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 12:08 PM   #55
Derek
3rd Gear Member
 
Derek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Brampton Ontario
Posts: 428
I have to agree these cruises have gotten a lot better in terms of people choosing when or where to pass and where to be in the pack based on the comfort of their driving skill. I've been attending all 3 cruises spring midnight and fall since 2010 and definitely see an improvement.

A full route on the page would be awesome like last cruises (I'll chip in for the print budget haha) Just for those that get stuck at long traffic lights and cant re-join the pack.
__________________



Carbon Black / Imola Red ///M3
TC Kline Coilovers, Scorza Exhaust, ZHP knob, TFX Retrofit, OEM LED, HRE 546R, AP Headers,
F1R Stage 2 Clutch, Prolite Flywheel, TMS Pedals, TMS Underdrive Pulleys, Euro Tune, Kirk Roll Bar.



Derek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 02:21 PM   #56
damonchoy
Breaks My Wallet
 
damonchoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sudbury, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
Absolutely.



I like how you shared one tiny part of what I openly admitted to you at the stop. My point of that sentence was that we had the cruise control on at 110-129 the entire way up the 400 and 11 except for one moment when there wasn't a single car to pass and we floored it. We slowed down to normal speeds before passing even one car, and it was shared to you as an exception to what happened overall and part of my surprise that you said you were doing 150 for a LONG time at the back to catch up. I might have hit 150 exactly once the entire way up, for a brief second. There was traffic everywhere. 150 would be dangerous and get us pulled over before Barrie. We were setting up for photos most of the way and cruising.



Most of the roads had 80km/h posted speed limits and are by all accounts legal highways. Are cyclist not to reasonably expect traffic driving by? I didn't see anyone cut off any cyclists or hear about any issues there but I'm all ears for it. I cycle myself and would empathize fully. But I haven't heard anything besides this, that the cyclists were physically also on the roads. We've been screamed at for doing 40km/h along scenic waterfront roads in the past, some people just don't like crowds of loud cars on their street Sunday afternoon regardless of the driving. I empathize there too but I'm not going to stop driving on public roads to stop it.

I think I have a video or pic in my phone of you doing a standing burnout in a dense Markham residential neighbourhood at midnight, from this summer. Wouldn't that single event piss off way more people and get them on their driveways than the sparsely populated cottages and farms we passed by on Sunday?



There was no reason to "keep up" on the cruise. I gave out a simple list of 3 addresses to follow with meeting times and duration and all. As stated, the E30 chose not to follow the group and still got to the 1:15pm meet spot (which we arrived to at 1:15) at 1:20pm. The motivation to keep up is all your own.



We had a rash of new members on their first cruises a few years back and ending with last Spring's cruise. The driving was much, much, much worse than it is now. There were a couple of collisions, each and every one by brand new members on their first cruise. Today the cruises are 80% people who have been attending them for 5+ years. They understand the idea of controlled risk taking, and in general the concept of driving to roads that are much less traveled to explore the performance of their cars. Is it a replacement for the track? Absolutely not. These are for people who enjoy, specifically, spirited driving on scenic roads with like-minded. If you don't like driving in a pack of mostly aggressive drivers you will never enjoy them. It's just not that type of club/cruise, and never has been mostly.

I am fully at peace with somebody making their own mistake and getting hurt. Are you thinking about what we are doing? These are, on average, like 400hp RWD cars on public streets with zero safety equipment, marshalls, healthcare nearby, the whole nine. I can't imagine looking at an event like this and thinking "yeah, that's totally safe". They're just not. Performance cars doing anything performance-like outside of a closed controlled environment is insane. And an insanity most of us here are okay with exploring on roads with little to crash into other than trees and your own sense of skill.

Again, I get it. These are not for everyone and do not aim to be. I think me focusing on scenic roads and patio lunch possibilities might be confusing what is, mostly, a driving event for people who like to drive quickly where the roads twist and the traffic dips. It's not perfect. It's not truly safe. And like anything fun in a car, it never will be. For the most safety while still exploring go up there with a rough plan and a few friends you trust. These are parties on the road with randoms. It's inherently nuts. But it hasn't changed in 7 years, you likely just grew up. 6 years ago I watched you street race on public roads without hesitation, and get pulled over for it. We all do stupid things and eventually decide to stop doing them. Not attending cruises might be one of the mature decisions you make now. And that's cool!

Take care, Kurt.
Incredibly well-said.

These cruises really aren't for everyone. I've been attending since 2013 and the only problems I've ever had have been with new drivers trying to play monkey-see-monkey-do. However, even with the rest of us on our best behaviour, we keep a fast pace and don't necessarily play by all the rules. The thing is, that's 100% fine by me. That's why I like this group and these cruises. We go out on backroads and actually drive our cars. Is it as safe as a track? No. But we also aren't pushing the limits as hard as on track. I will just say this... I have NEVER been made to feel unsafe by the driving of any of the long-term members of the cruises. We drive aggressively, but in my opinion, also more than safe enough for me to be comfortable. I have only ever had issues with newcomers who I have seen come once and never again.

Aside: I've been yelled at on the street I live on for driving 5km/h under the limit on multiple occasions. People just don't like loud cars, especially when they're in groups. Sounds gives the illusion of speed.

-

Jay, one thing I would like to see make a comeback are turn-by-turn directions. The checkpoints worked last Fall when we had <20 cars in attendance, but not so well this time around. After the lunch stop, I put the second stop into my GPS just in case I got separated. However, right away, the actual cruise route naturally did not follow the "fastest route" there. This led me to just trust following the group and not trusting my GPS. Why turn left when 10 cars just turned right? About 20 of us ended up 25km in the opposite direction until I realized the person at the front of our group didn't know where he was going. With help from some friends at the front of the group, I was able to go back and do the entire cruise myself, closing the 25km gap to 8km by dinner. I had an absolute blast on these amazing roads, but I would have loved to do it with you guys! I think turn-by-turn directions have to make a comeback. This will also help to silence the complainers. If they have turn-by-turn directions, then they are free to cruise at a slower pace if they like with absolutely no obligation to keep up with those who enjoy taking some calculated risks.

Despite losing the group very early on, I still had a blast closing the gap while trying to catch up.

See you guys in the Spring.
__________________

Past: Fern Green E36 328i Convertible, Imola on Alcantara E46 330ci M-Sport, x2 E36 328i Sedans, Le Mans Sunset 350Z
Current: E36 M3 Cabrio - California Import, Estoril Blue, AC Schnitzer Type 1, Hard Motorsport Flares, Toyo Proxes R1R, Broadway Static
damonchoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2016, 03:24 PM   #57
BMW_M_POWER
740il
 
BMW_M_POWER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 1,024
We had a blast even in the X5
__________________

SOLD 04 ///M3
BMW_M_POWER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 08:28 AM   #58
stan man
2nd Gear Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Aurora
Posts: 182
Here is a funny story…
After getting lost with the ‘mid pack group’ (I guess), we get stuck behind this pick-up truck with a trailer. I don’t pass, some people behind me do. I see the driver wave his hand, kind of telling me to pass, so I do. I thought that was nice, but as I overtake he throws a coffee cup or something in the car and it spills all over the side. Good thing I wasn’t in a convertible or the mess would be inside.

Last time I went to the cruise was about 4 years ago and I didn’t find it extreme, just spirited lol.
But this time I felt extreme
And I have to say it is just me getting older, because the driving did not change.

I had fun!
__________________
________________
stan man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 08:41 AM   #59
perryman
2nd Gear Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: N. Ontario
Posts: 64
Hey, I was behind you when that happened! By the way, all 4 passengers were leaning out the truck throwing shit at you, the coffee cup is the only thing that actually hit!

Couldn't believe how they baited you to pass then did that. No Raspect haha
__________________
Present
1996 328is - Madeiraviolett / Magma
2006 Forester "XTi" - Champagne Metallic

Past
2002 WRX Stage (?) - Sedona Red Pearl - SOLD
perryman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2016, 12:56 PM   #60
bmwm5lover
is BMW crazy
 
bmwm5lover's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Thornhill
Posts: 15,578
Can we stop the cry baby/bitching? KTHXBYE
__________________
www.enthusiastauto.caNeed a car???

His--'00 BMW ///M5 .:Jet BLK/BLK:.Individual- Modded
Hers--'07 BMW M5/6.:Indianapolis Red/Black:.
Toys
'91 BMW 850i J Spec-ST Tuning Kit- Lowered-Wokke Chips- Custom Exhaust- 18" MK1's-KN Filters+ M Steering Wheel- Stereo Upgrade +++
'88 BMW 635CSi Lowered
'81 MB 500 SEC Koenig WILD RIDE
bmwm5lover is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Maxbimmer Copyright 2001 - 2017