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Old 02-24-2014, 06:15 PM   #16
Gleb
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South, I agree with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lvan View Post
Looks like someone bribed the people to go on the street and caused too much beef for nothing. Broke EU got nothing to offer at the moment.. On the other hand, Russia will just jack up the cost of gas, and the reality will result in Ukraine running back to Russia.

I think Ukraine needs the reforms not flocking right to left.
100% agree.

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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
RT is not a credible news source

And what/who is?

most western powers have explicitly condomned yanukovich's actions, canada has closed its embassy in kiev.

I wonder why?

here are some more evenhanded news sources that address the issues of factionalism and extremism while still being objective:
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...a-and-ukraine/

Paaaleeeseee


Ivan, russia cannot turn off the gas to ukraine. the piplines that deliver russian gas to western europe all go through ukraine.
They can turn it off almost as fast as you can turn the lights off in your house. Look into it.

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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
who gives a **** what you want for ukraine? you want ukraine to be a russian puppet state.

Calling Ukraine a Russian puppet state is like calling Ontario a Canadian puppet state. The two ARE THE SAME COUNTRY AND PEOPLE! They should have never been separated in the first place.


here's another great article about ukrainian stereotypes from yesterdays washington post:

Who's behind Washington Post?

Ukrainian smears and stereotypes


By Anne Applebaum,

She is a moron, but let me tell you why...

after years of stability

Not a day of stability since 1991, and you know it.

Fraternal assistance — is a term waaay older then the Soviet era, was/is widely used in Russia for centuries. May mean something as little as helping a neighbor, friend, etc... or helping one of the Slavic countries in whatever capacity.

Anti-terrorist operation — This is a Putin-era expression, used to justify the Russian invasion of Chechnya in 1999.

Really?! How effing stupid does she think people are?
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Originally Posted by Slowered318 View Post
Not my intention to take the focus off Ukraine, I think it's very important we observe the situation and how Putin, Yanukovich, the EU, and Obama react to protest or negotiations.

I believe something similar could happen in North America as US presidents seem to progress into dictatorial leaders and the two party system is a scam. US government buildings are being fortified, huge ammunition stockpiles, FEMA camps everywhere, military training for "domestic terrorism", ever increasing surveillance on US/Canadian citizens, even Trudeau want's a buy-back or registry of rifles and shotguns. This is in preparation for something big! Just look at what happened here during the G20 in Toronto when extremists joined in with the peaceful protestors, for anyone living downtown it was more or less a police state.
Scary $hit

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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
the parliment of ukraine has just impeached yanukovich in a vote of 328 to 0
Who's backing that parliament?

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Originally Posted by South View Post
First thing the opposition does with control of parliament is release a pro-western former PM Yulia Tymoshenko from prison. One of the richest persons in Ukraine.
One of the richest in Europe, my friend.

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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
get over yourself with your retarded bullshit. the USA did not cause a revolution in ukraine, yanukovich did. the people rose up, and now he's on the run.
yulia is a crook just like every other politician in ukraine, but she was put in jail for political and not criminal reasons, and deserved to be freed.
Who is being naive now?

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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
i'm not saying the us doesn't influence foreign politics. i know for a fact that the US does. (remember, i have a polisci degree?) the us isn't THAT interested in ukraine anyway. there's lots of aid coming, and they always seek influence in all regions, but it would be a stretch for the US to call ukraine a strategic ally. (maybe something to do with ukraine's neighbors to the south
You've got to be kidding!
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Old 02-24-2014, 06:48 PM   #17
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gleb, ukraine has massive oil reserves at its borders (of russian owned oil for export). if russia turns off the taps ukraine will still have enough oil to feed its domestic supply for at least 60 days. during that time russia's oil exports will drop by nearly 70%. this has happened before. ukraine will ge through this winter no matter what.

the parliment that voted to impeech yanukovich included almost 100 of his own party members. bribed people to go into the street. are you ****ing serious? on sundays during the big demonstrations there were hundreds of thousands of people in the maidan. someone bribed all those people?

there is zero evidence of the revolution being orchestrated by the united states. this isn't naievete its a simple statement of fact. i challenge you to present evidence to the contrary. frankly with all the financial and other records i find it laughable that anyone would defend yanukovich and argue against his impeachment at this point.


oh, and go **** yourself for saying ukraine and russia is the same state and the same people. that is a hostile remark meant only to provoke. they are not the same people. they have some shared history dating back from the kievan rus, but also have had completely independent national identity, culture and language for hundreds of years. ukraine has been fighting for independence since the early-soviet era, and by the looks of ukraine today, is unlikely to ever stop.

the irony of you calling me naive does not escape me. the more i reread your response the more laughable i find it. Russia has turned the gas off before. YOU look up what happened. of course its ****ing disasterous to cut off the supply of fossil fuels to a country. opec could stop selling oil to the USA, and they have, but what is their benefit to doing that long term? the USA has had strategic arms emplacements in turkey since the 60's, they're not looking to open FOB michelle ****ing obama in ternopil. yes, both russia and ukraine are looking to reenter a bi-polar world of foreign affairs, in that sense the USA (and russia) will try to attract any country to its side instead of the other. terms like "strategic alliance" and "fraternal assistance" (show me where this term was used in a political context pre USSR) have SPECIFIC meanings, while you're obviously only interested in a bias and superficial understanding of both them, and this situation in general.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:36 PM   #18
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The whole Ukraine and EU talk is overblown by huge proportion.. I was reading the other the news about Serbia and Montenegro, and Stefan File which is EU enlargement representative, he said they may be lucky if these two join in by 2020. On top of that, the EU has pretty shitty record when it comes to EU and the eastern orthodox countries. They sort of let Romania and Bulgaria join, but they have their EU funds blocked and shengen accession on hold. They just let them join in to prevent the Russians to influence the area.

So this means Ukraine will get hook up soon on "carrot and string" political game which is going to take two-three decades. I bet you cash that Germany will NOT let you join in before 2030, and I am sure you know this as well. The European crew in the West is going thorough some very tough timeframe as we speak... They are discriminating all those new EU member states.


Canada is in the same boat... You got tons of cars out there during this tough winter without winter tires putting people's lives in danger.
On the other hand, Russia is on the rise and Iran may be there too with their nukes. That's what the problem is.

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Old 02-24-2014, 10:26 PM   #19
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ukraine joining the EU is a crock of shit. it wont happen. it wont happen now, it wont happen in 2030. the EU is pretty ****ed now economically speaking anyway. this conflict started about spheres of influence, and progessed into a simple demonstration of the will of people.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:19 PM   #20
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sucks that people had to die
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:34 PM   #21
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the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. i want to say i hope they kill yanukovich when they find him, but that would be too good for him.
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Old 02-26-2014, 12:02 AM   #22
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So they are already talking about going with the EU loan through the IMF...they are even sending a IMF team to assess how much will be needed, as I type lol. The Euromaiden began over a trade agreement west vs east, and it seems that what has thus transpired is a protest which, overthrew a government, but with the agreement to make a united temporary government, until elections whereby the government at that time can finally choose to either sign trade agreement with Europe or Russia. Makes sense. Government wants to do something BUT some people get pissed cause its not what they think they need or want. So they start a protest and after months of a standoff between police and protestors people die on both sides. Whole western world is going nuts over it. The US just looks at Russia, don't even think about intervening militarily to keep the president in power, who has killed his own people, the Ukrainian people have the right to...etc. The protestors then release pro-western criminally convicted prisoners who join as the leaders of the opposition. Then they take parliament and parliament votes to just dismiss a constitutionally elected president and implicate the riot police killings directly to him and issue a warrant for his arrest. Meanwhile, the top news story on BBC at this time is titled "Ukraine notabout East vs West fight, say US". SO ANYWAY Turns out guys, that we can start a protest, fortify the center of a city, incite opportunity to provoke a harsh response which will later give justification for the overthrow of the president and then quickly and most importantly siding with the west and taking IMF money. The entire major issue is west vs east trade/sides, if these protestors want to really be democratic then hold off until elections and let that newly elected government choose if it really wants IMF money.

Because I don't think Ukrainians understand the "joining of the European family" is going to mean for their socio-economic issues. You know the stuff socialists and communists are concerned about, the proletariat, keep this in mind? Anyway neoliberalism, what your gonna get with the IMF, was applied to the former soviet union was called "SHOCK THERAPY" in the 1990s. Literally over night neoliberal officials turned Russia and Ukraine and others into a free market economy with all the trimmings. Overnight your oligarchies were born. Those rich corrupt motha-fckas that represented the worst in USSR institutions- those who took advantage of their position and ended up with the countries assets. Your economies were devastated, living standards devastated, utter economic retractions. I mean shit I bet the radically anticommunist American generals in the 90s were laughing how the, east peacefully dissolved and trusted American neo-liberal policies and "democracy". I mean Ukraines economy and living standard is worse than when it was with USSR. It didn't work in the 1990s why would it work now and why not consider your former socialist comrade Russia. Stop tearing down Lenin, that is to people like me as a symbol of a noble shared history in the fight of people.

IMF in every other country has given out loans on the conditions of a structural adjustment program or they call SAP. Its tv evil capitalism. Privatize everything, financialize everything, deregulation, downsize government, fiscal responsibility through austerity, mega-corporations, we know what it is, its neo-liberalism. Taught to face in my university business class everyday. yebayunas ou mozak. Ukrainians don't really believe they will have any form of democracy in the economy if they take this loan? Hey, maybe the IMF will generate massive growth and economic performance for once so the people won't have to suffer austerity measures like Greece! I hope.

Now I have questions for any Ukrainians or for anyone who might know, was Russia, during the Soviet Union, repressive of your culture or identity? Did Russians ever target just Ukrainians? When Gorbachev initiated his reforms, which culminated in putting it to a vote to the USSR for whether to keep the Soviet Union or disband, what happened? I believe in 1989 and 1990 the most populous peaceful revolution in human history occurred, where eastern communist governments were overthrown peacefully.

Ok let us suppose you were under USSR puppet control. What do you know about how America's allies achieving their "peaceful" revolution against their western puppet Cold War government? You think those right-wing dictatorships supported by the west just let democracy happen? No they started quelling the socialist uprisings that have democratically now taken over after decades of struggle. While they were quelling their protestors they were using US made guns and training. Gatta hate that US military industrial complex where the mentality of their minds is "if we sell to both sides we can make more money and if we can keep this conflict going we can see even more guns".

My other soviet bloc buddies' dads are all comrades with each other. Personally, I am former Yugoslav and the divisions western media is making in Ukraine are of the same style they tried in the Balkans and for us that only put into power, power seeking politicians in-front of nationalistic parades that wanted to kill each other and divide the country. Don't you Ukrainians dare fcking let those nationalistic or anti-religion or anti-russian or anti-ethnic or anti-ideology politicians get any power.
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Old 02-26-2014, 12:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants. i want to say i hope they kill yanukovich when they find him, but that would be too good for him.
So we have a tree
Trees need water occasionally
The tree is the symbol of our liberty
We want our tree or liberty to be healthy
Water it occasionally
Water it with the blood of patriots and tyrants

Is Yanukovich a patriot? is he a tyrant? Really? If you poured his blood on the tree of liberty, the tree will smack you.
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Old 02-26-2014, 12:13 AM   #24
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ukraine joining the EU is a crock of shit. it wont happen. it wont happen now, it wont happen in 2030. the EU is pretty ****ed now economically speaking anyway. this conflict started about spheres of influence, and progessed into a simple demonstration of the will of people.
Do you occasionally consult as an expert on Fox? same style of those experts. State a bunch of stuff about one thing, and then end it with a MASSIVE statement about something entirely else. At every point you made I nodded my head once in understanding and at the last point you made I smacked my forehead in awakening and exclaimed, "of course".
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Old 02-26-2014, 12:51 AM   #25
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why are you getting defensive about russia. am i blaming russia for anything? I do think russia is homophobic, racist, shithole of a country i wouldn't never ****ing want to live in. Is ukraine really that different? no, its not. but it has the opportunity to change, and who knows, it might. i'm not blaming russia, the precarious political situation in ukraine as a result of the USSR, which ukraine was a part of, and is at least partially responsible for the resultant effects of its demise. this isn't us vs them, its just about us.

How long will it be until the federal government in ukraine runs out of money and the country collapses? Name one alternative to IMF loans. putin's original offer for aid isn't even still on the table. This is the problem, you have absolutely zero understanding of the situation in ukraine and are just spewing your neo-communist ideological nonsense without a single **** given for the realities of the situation. what do you suggest, we just stop paying our foreign debt? maybe we'll stop paying for russian gas? maybe we'll just completely stop all internal governmental responsibilities?

Where are you getting your information that the sentiment of maidan doesn't really exist in ukraine and is only being put forth by the western media? you and your ex communist bloc cronies keep ranting and raving how this whole revolution was staged by the west. I say i have pictures of a hundred thousand ukrainians in the maidan protesting. these people clearly aren't all flown in from the USA. what evidence do you have to the contrary. none, i suspect. seriously how did the west motivate all those protesters to ****ing die in the maidan? since they're all clearly agents of the west?

and go suck a bag of ****ing cocks telling me whom my countrymen is or isn't allowed to give power to. russia has a NATIONAL ****ing policy of homophobia, and you're telling me my i shant dare allow racist politians to have any power? seriously, shut the **** up. pravij sector and all those FRINGE groups (a word i use very intentionally) both right AND left will NEVER hold real power in ukraine. they are a militia. during a revolution they can become key players. in times of relative peace they serve little purpose and yield very little power, in parliment and elsewhere. these groups have existed in ukraine for years, and have never been had enough power in parliament or elsewhere to inflict real change. look up the communist party in ukraine. look at how much more support they have than the national socialists. you're just ranting ****ing nonsense about Ukrainian politics that isn't even slightly based in fact.

you dont need to explain the IMF's predatory lending practices to me. you dont need to explain how bad the situation in ukraine is, and how overthrowing a TYRANT has accomplished very little in real terms to save the ukrainian economy. i much in the same way have no compunction to try to convince you of anything. the west has made up its mind about the situation in ukraine, and credible politician or decision maker thinks this revolution was staged by right wing radicals funded by the west (do you even hear how ridiculous what you are saying sounds?). the people that needed to be convinced in the west of the reasoning behind this revolution already are. i dont need your vote, your understanding, or your support. you started this thread preaching your ****ing retarded nonsense about how a president who is currently INDITED FOR MASS MURDER was showing "extreme restraint" in killing my countrymen. i'm just here to say no, what you're saying is a complete fabrication believed only by people who have putin's cock so far down their throats that his cum is coming out of your ass.

and dont ****ing patronize me with your half cocked, 8th grade understanding of soviet history. google some of the things i've said or quotes i've used before you start rambling about watering trees. i'm glad your dad is homies with everyone in the great post-soviet rainbow. i have lots of friends of all kinds of backgrounds, including tons of russian friends, some of whom even think like you. i'm happy to drink with them, as i would be with you, and debate until the morning. but i'm telling you, you're completely out of touch with what's going on.
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Old 02-26-2014, 12:53 AM   #26
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Lessor evils, that is all. Would I give my life for lessor evil, no.

There is a simple rule, the weak will not survive, Putin will get what he wants, Ukrainians and other people's will suffer eventually no matter what, sad, hard to accept but true.
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:03 AM   #27
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.
why are you getting defensive about russia. am i blaming russia for anything? I do think russia is homophobic, racist, shithole of a country i wouldn't never ****ing want to live in. Is ukraine really that different? no, its not. but it has the opportunity to change, and who knows, it might. i'm not blaming russia, the precarious political situation in ukraine as a result of the USSR, which ukraine wads a part of, and is at least partially responsible for the resultant effects of its demise. this isn't us vs them, its just about us.

Where are you getting your information that the sentiment of maidan doesn't really exist in ukraine and is only being put forth by the western media? you and your ex communist bloc cronies keep ranting and raving how this whole revolution was staged by the west. I say i have pictures of a hundred thousand ukrainians in the maidan protesting. these people clearly aren't all flown in from the USA. what evidence do you have to the contrary. none, i suspect. seriously how did the west motivate all those protesters to ****ing die in the maidan? since they're all clearly agents of the west?

.
when the economy is doing bad, and social tensions are at riot fervors people just want change and the hope of a better future. Change will give people hope and so they will seek it in their own ways. What percent of Euromaiden is what ideology, what side, what sentiments are all expressed within the protests. Which forces within the protests is the west backing. Revolutions can be to opportunities to others and I in no way believe it was staged by the west from the very beginning. The US has had its eye and interference in Ukraine since the 1990s. This was just a new opportunity.

I am defensive of what I believe is right, or the lessor evil, or simply examining strength of a nations actions and norms against universal ratifications of law. As for your homophobic remarks about Russia, I only find defensive about how you ignore Americas record towards racism and xenophobia You said yourself that you have a lower bowel reaction to the notion of what you think about Russia. Why are you so offensive?. Remember what I believe is people can believe anything under the right set or circumstances. What any given protestor might think about what he thinks he is fighting for, can later regret what he thought he was fighting for. Also, Russia just hosted the world in sports and tried to give us the best show, why are you spewing out the recent rash of western media that sensationalizes the gay issues going on and persecution of gays such as having shared double toilets. Maaaaaan. if I was Russia and invited guests to my home only to have them shit on every problem going on and to try to make it worse by ridiculing it, I'd say thats fcked. The US should host the Olympics and then have media do the same thing they are doing now. If they did they would start a revolution.
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:26 AM   #28
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Try asking why are Ukrainian and Venezuelan protests are front page news and why isn't the one in Thailand. Protestors have all died in all three places. See. If our media. Is part of that degree of BS. Then haven't at some point asked yourself what the hell do I really know then. Its like when the media during the Balkans civil war was all about ethnic cleansing, while the same stuff was going on at the same time in Rwanda. In Rwanda the UN was leaving, but in Serbia they were bombing. This BS lead me to answers stemming from Marx, but of course searching for truth I have been and heard and seen and studied other ideologies. Hell...when I was a young kid I was afraid of going to Cuba because of what everyone I knew thought about it. Thought it was a evil dictator. Well the media really got us young in the 90s with television and 24/7 news.
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Old 02-27-2014, 08:51 PM   #29
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I think Russia is miles ahead in terms of their gas going to the West. They have the pipe lines under the black sea going straight from Russia to the EU. I am sure there is at least one entering Bulgaria. It just sounds too good to be true that they blew 50B on the Olympic games, and they have to depend on Ukraine. I am not buying it. Some people don't even have the capacity in their brain to understand how Russia is booming. Every small city has a rail link to the airport, and here in Toronto, that will be the main news in a year for panam games...

As soon as they hate you in the West, and they talk down on you like on China, you have to be doing something good.

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Old 02-27-2014, 10:16 PM   #30
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the Venezuelan revolution is getting tons of press in the globe and mail. the revolution in thailand isn't a populist movement, its a different kind of revolution.

there is a pipeline under the black sea that actually leaves land on russian soil, but it is fed largely by reserves in ukraine. the domestic capacity of the other pipelines feeding it in eastern russia isn't enough to fulfill the need.

i'm not saying russia will be ****ed if they cut off the supply to ukraine, not at all. russia is a very wealthy country and could completely cut its economic ties with ukraine and still survive. but why do this? russia is wealthy because they do business with the rest of the world, why stop now?

also, there are early reports of russian troops breaking treaty rights and invading sovereign ukrainian soil. we'll see what happens.

(for those who dont know, russia has naval and military bases in southern ukraine)
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