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Old 02-01-2006, 11:13 PM   #91
chromius
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_w.
just an interesting fact. north korea and cuba are the only other countries in the world with public health care.
Just to modify that a bit, before the liberals jump down your throat

"just an interesting fact. north korea and cuba are the only other countries in the world with a public healthcare system that outlaws private care."

Funny enough they are both communist! Gee where is Canada headed comrades!
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Old 02-02-2006, 02:55 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chromius_e30
Wow...you are so wrong, I don't even know where to start.

First, I will start by pointing out the contradiction in your statement. All abortion clinics are PRIVATE facilities, and you are seemingly against private healthcare, but for abortion....interesting.

Next, Harper has made it very clear, there will be no laws, or bills passed from his party regarding the outlawing of abortion. He has even stated there will not even be any private member bills on the issue.

Next is healthcare....where to start with that. First, I would urge you to do some research on the issue before making bold statements like that.
Parallel private healthcare with a universal public system, means that NO-ONE would be without care, and no one would have to buy private care if they don't want to. It's called freedom of choice! Canada is the LAST industrialized nation in the world that outlaws private care. Every other industrialized nation in the world that did have that type of system has now gone to a parallel private system. And many have better care and services than Canada in both the public and private system. And in fact Canada pays the second most for their system out of about 30 other OCED nations, Yet gets less services for the money it pays.

Canada's healthcare system is not sustainable in it's current form, and needs to be changed. Look at the rest of the world...The switch to parallel private care along with a universal system has done the other 30 or so OCED nations well, so why are you so resistant? With a paralell private system along with the universal system, you would still have every right to continue to use the public system....however now you and everyone else has the choice to do what you wish with your hard earned money. Yeah that sounds horrible
Excellent post.

Good to see someone posting their position and backing it up with some solid facts.
Some of you really need to start backing up your 'anti' PC statements with irrefutable facts instead of the mindless Liberal/NDP rhetoric.
When you don't, it really doesn't say anything positive about you.
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Old 02-02-2006, 09:15 AM   #93
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Michael Moore is a douchebag.
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Old 02-02-2006, 10:32 AM   #94
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"First, I will start by pointing out the contradiction in your statement. All abortion clinics are PRIVATE facilities, and you are seemingly against private healthcare, but for abortion....interesting."

First off, health care, and abortion clinics are two separate entities in my mind.

Health care being desperatly sick seeking docters aid to minor infection needing a docters oppinion and some anti-biotics to get over it.

Abortion is a choice a woman can make if she can't provide the life for her child, that the child deserves. IMO. It's not a health issue/concern.

To be contradictive, if the pregnancy goes wrong, such as pregnancies happening in women's tubes. In that case that would cause automatic death to the baby, because it cannot survive in the tubes, and serious health complications/maybe death for the woman! In that case that is where health care coverage would be a benefit to women. I know of more than one case that women had to go through an abortion due to the fact their babies life, and the mother's life was at serious risk! Why should they have to pay for it, when the government can provide this?!

It should be a case by case basis. If the health of the mother/baby is involved and the risks are high of a problematic birth, the government should offer compensation.

If its per choice of the parent/parents then the costs should be covered by the parent/parents.

"what is wrong with tripiling our population? that way we would not have to let in so many immigrants to increase our population. there is such a labor shortage in western canada, i would rather fill those jobs with home grown canadians than foreigners."

Thats a rather bold statement if I might say so myself.

What about your ancestors who came to Canada!? I don't think you would be here today if the government in that time refused their entrance into this country due to the fact they would prefer "home grown canadians" rather then Immigrants.

All of our races in Canada living in perfect harmony is a beautiful thing!

The states does it all the time. They make it much more difficult for immigrants to enter the country, and look at them! They are not any better off than us!




Quote:
Originally Posted by chromius_e30
Wow...you are so wrong, I don't even know where to start.

First, I will start by pointing out the contradiction in your statement. All abortion clinics are PRIVATE facilities, and you are seemingly against private healthcare, but for abortion....interesting.

Next, Harper has made it very clear, there will be no laws, or bills passed from his party regarding the outlawing of abortion. He has even stated there will not even be any private member bills on the issue.

Next is healthcare....where to start with that. First, I would urge you to do some research on the issue before making bold statements like that.
Parallel private healthcare with a universal public system, means that NO-ONE would be without care, and no one would have to buy private care if they don't want to. It's called freedom of choice! Canada is the LAST industrialized nation in the world that outlaws private care. Every other industrialized nation in the world that did have that type of system has now gone to a parallel private system. And many have better care and services than Canada in both the public and private system. And in fact Canada pays the second most for their system out of about 30 other OCED nations, Yet gets less services for the money it pays.

Canada's healthcare system is not sustainable in it's current form, and needs to be changed. Look at the rest of the world...The switch to parallel private care along with a universal system has done the other 30 or so OCED nations well, so why are you so resistant? With a paralell private system along with the universal system, you would still have every right to continue to use the public system....however now you and everyone else has the choice to do what you wish with your hard earned money. Yeah that sounds horrible
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Old 02-02-2006, 10:55 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rendered
First off, health care, and abortion clinics are two separate entities in my mind.
They are medical facilities, and therefore would fall under your "No privatization" view.

Regarless though, your post is irrelavant, because abortion will not be banned. And this isn't a discussion about abortion.

Edit: Actually, if you think that Abortion clinics are seperate from health care...where do you draw the line. MRI scans wouldn't fall into your definition of Healthcare....so should they all be privatised? CT scans, same thing? Elective surgery? where does it stop? It's amazing how easily you can move the line and change your ideology.
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:25 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b_w.

what is wrong with tripiling our population? that way we would not have to let in so many immigrants to increase our population. there is such a labor shortage in western canada, i would rather fill those jobs with home grown canadians than foreigners.
i think a better argument for "tripling the population" would be the economies of scale factor. canada's productivity is suffering because our labour force is small in comparison to our demand for goods and services. if we fell into the same category as countries with economies of scale (i.e. population of 100 million or more) our productivity would obviously increase, thereby satisfying consumer demand. a higher population would lead to a higher work force which would offset the number of jobs currently being outsourced.

but anyway, even if abortion was banned, i doubt the population would triple. i figure that if abortion was indeed made illegal then people would be more careful not to have kids, simply because the consequences of gettin caught having an abortion would serve as a big enough deterrence
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:39 AM   #97
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Abortion should not be banned. Gay marriage is law, the world hasn't ended, there is no use in reversing it.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:02 PM   #98
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Quote:
"what is wrong with tripiling our population? that way we would not have to let in so many immigrants to increase our population. there is such a labor shortage in western canada, i would rather fill those jobs with home grown canadians than foreigners."

Thats a rather bold statement if I might say so myself.
i am not trying to suggest that immigration is a bad thing. i just dont think it should be the primary means of increasing our population. i think it would be great if we could meet workforce demands with home grown talent. under the liberal government just about anybody would be let into the country regardless of whether they would contribute to society. i think it is a great idea to have people from around the world living together peacefully but at the same time those new people have to remember that they are in a new country and we do things differently here. look at the problems in europe. many people look down on the foreign workers as second rate humans. we would not have these problems if more canadians were born and could meat the increased demand for labor.
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Old 02-02-2006, 05:34 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chromius_e30
They are medical facilities, and therefore would fall under your "No privatization" view.

Regarless though, your post is irrelavant, because abortion will not be banned. And this isn't a discussion about abortion.

Edit: Actually, if you think that Abortion clinics are seperate from health care...where do you draw the line. MRI scans wouldn't fall into your definition of Healthcare....so should they all be privatised? CT scans, same thing? Elective surgery? where does it stop? It's amazing how easily you can move the line and change your ideology.
You make a valid point.

Although, why would people want to use their own hard earned money to pay for their health care, when they have the luxury of the government paying?! How would it benefit anyone but allow the "rich" to maybe recieve better care.

Here's a thought.
Successful or not?:

Redistribute funding, more specialized medical facilities for every degree of health care but ran by the government and covered through our health care. Larger than clinics but not as large as say a hospital. Costs are less to maintain, less people to employ but more space for patients then a small clinic.

Agreed, this whole discussion about health care/abortion and so on is totally irrelevant and somewhat off topic from Micheal Moore's statement. Regardless, talking about Micheal Moore is irrelevant and discussing what the correct way for our society to go is the task at hand. Finding a happy medium in Canada. Thats where the liberals didn't do so well. I hope Harper can pick it up and do better.

This is a good debate. I'm enjoying it. The sad part is no matter what we all agree or disagree on, most of us induviduals can't change much to better this society.
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Old 02-02-2006, 09:14 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rendered
Although, why would people want to use their own hard earned money to pay for their health care, when they have the luxury of the government paying?! How would it benefit anyone but allow the "rich" to maybe recieve better care.
Simple answer is quality. I wouldn't exactly call our healthcare system luxury, especially when you hear about people waiting for months, for much needed cancer treatment. Or people waiting in agony, for months even years, for knee surgury (as did a friend of mine). Where as if he had the choice, he would have paid for the surgery, which he could have received within weeks just to get out of the agony.

Just as a side note though. When you say the "luxury of the government paying", lets not forget who pays the government...John Q taxpayer.

Also, People who have the money to seak healthcare privatly, might do so, and basically "get out of the waiting line" for the public system....which essentially opens up more spots in the public system for those who can't afford it. This also reduces the number of patients a public system would have to accomodate, and in turn increases quality of service.

The current system we have, is like telling people they can't purchase nice car's because it's only a benifit for the rich.
well I'm sorry to say it, but there are a lot of things in this world that only benifit people with more money. That's the result of living in a capitalist society. One of the fundamental priciples of a capitalist society is, you work hard to acheive a better standard of living. It's the priciple of worker motivation.
However, As I've said above, the benifits would be visible to everyone. And average workers would still be able to use the private system should they wish, just like many people spend money on car insurance, people could choose to spend money on health insurance. But of course, this would be a choice, not mandatory.

The healthcare system in it's current form, is costing us as tax payers more and more with each passing year. Yet services, and quality of service declines with each passing year. This can't continue for obvious reasons. So one way or another, something has to be done. If we could make the public system work well and provide good service at a low sustainable cost, then I would be all for keeping it. But unfortunatly I don't see that happening. Considering many other countries have tried and failed.
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