AWD for BMW’s M Range

[noodles101]

have u guys watched the top gear video??
2010 m3 vs RS4 vs C63 amg?
on the track....

C63 - fastest in a straight line ( mercs cant corner cuz of too many gizmos on board)

audi RS4- understeers like crazyyyy cant turn at all at high speed

M3 - not as fast as the C63 but with electronic LSD + rear wheel drive + perfect geometry wins !

but yes i understand most ppl do not track their cars that often and its only once in a while.

and yes i do drive a 328is and in winter i always always see all these quatro cars owning in heavy snow where i can barely go up a snowy hill.

ive driven my buddys 2009 audi RS4 in snow, and i cud not belive how much control u have , u can still whip the back out but u have FULL control over the car even at high speeds.

so in my opinion, all wheel drive cars are better for canada if ur gunna drive summer + winter .

BUTTTT, i have a rwd car, hella fun cornering , the ' OH SHIT' feeling u get every time u bang corners / whip the back out a little is still the best feeling in the world. lolll

[dble Trouble]

^^I agree with almost everything you said except for living in Canada and driving one car through all seasons. How many times does it actually snow in the GTA? 10 if you're lucky. Main roads are cleared within half a day of the snow stopping. From that point on, it's just cold. So for 10 days a year you're going to purchase a vehicle that is better, yet is worse for the other 355 days of that year??? I don't get it. Really, I just don't get it.

Quick recap

awd vs rwd

awd is worse l/100km
worse braking in grippy or slippery surfaces
worse handling in grippy or slippery surfaces
worse accelerating on grippy surfaces
more $ to purchase
more $ to maintain

awd is better at accelerating in slippery surfaces

Although most of the time I do make references to performance at the track, (as this is what's important to me) in this case i'm taking into account that over 99% of people do not track their cars. Yet awd/4wd still doesn't make sense unless you live in Vermont, Colorado, BC mountaineous areas, etc

[davericher20]

Originally Posted by dble Trouble

worse accelerating on grippy surfaces

I'm pretty sure my launch control would smoke you.







































but then after my t-case failed you'd pass me.

[noodles101]

ya thats true , they clear snow pretty fast in toronto and area near by.

and if u do put snowtires on ur rwd bimmers, and if u dont drive like a retard and dont accelerate very hard and its alllllllllll goood. lol

oh and have u guys ever had this feeling? driving in really bad snowstorm...and wen they havent cleared the snow and u get to ur destination ( for me it was toronto to waterloo in 20 cm of snow on the highway ) and u say , ' i got here alive , dayuumm im a good driver' LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[4doors]

Keep in mind not AWD drive systems are the same. The AWD drive system of the multi-million dollar Veyron is likely some sort of custom AWD setup. Got a million+? Sure, I'll build you an AWD that will rival anything. You think the Veyron uses the same AWD that goes into a Ford Flex as well?

I recall reading an article in which the author noted 15 AWD systems were available on the market to auto manufacturers. Wow. Some even use different AWD systems depending on year model. AWD is a catch-all. Kind of like 'differential', of which varying types exist and are most certainly not equal.

All performance cars RWD? Well, depends on what you're performing. If I was going to a rally race, I'll take the AWD, thanks. F1 doesn't use AWD because you have a weight restriction, and no space for it . . . yet. NASCAR, well, with all those turns (2), it'd be overkill. Plus, the Veyron's (+ Veyron Sport) over-powered engine needs 4 tires of grip to deliver power to the road.

Other cars are indeed quick through the turns but the Veyron's real enemy is not its AWD system but its massive weight, which explains its mediocre handling for a 'super' car. A thrill car is the Ariel Atom, with a higher power vs. weight ratio than the Veyron. But of course, you'd never buy a Veyron for performance or thrills. You buy it for exclusivity.

The understeer-oversteer debate rages but that too is multi-variable dependent. Yes, AWD introduces understeer but from experience I know the understeer can be dialed out. I used to deal with the problem every summer during RC season. Just harden your front tires compared to the rear and you'll get more oversteer. Move on to springs, shocks, anti-roll bars, caster, toe, camber, etc. and you can go bananas figuring getting the right balance. Car balance is a frigg'n nightmare. The world just doesn't stay constant.

I'm not a big fan of AWD because a) the 2 cars that have great AWD are the Audi (way over-priced) and the Subaru (way 'unique looking' = car only owner could love) and b) the car I like (BMW) has a pretty plain AWD system. How a $50,000 car has an inferior system to a $30,000 one is hard to understand. So is Canadian pricing but I digress . . .

Don't hate AWD too much. Independent Motive Drive may be the drive mode of the future with 4 independent . . . motors!

[Mpellizze30]

I drive a silverado everyday (for work) and i honestly put it in 4 wheel twice this year and twice last year but those 2 times i did i was very glad i had it, when i drove my e30 year round with snow tires i feared for my life on multiple ocasions. I couldnt tell u how many times i went sideways at the top of the hill going eastbound on the q.e.w right before winston churchill on the way home from work on bad days, i almost got hit a few times, but mayb i just drive to fast. I guess i have it good in both worlds now but this is canada and y not have full confidence when your driving in the rare snowstorms we get as oppose to having to drive with caution.
I agree with the subaru thing too; ugly as hell but awsome technology, its a fwd, rwd and awd car all in one and its as reliable as anything on the road. Its a shame they have no styling in or out.

[noodles101]

ya subaru cars look like aliens in my opinion. lol. . . .

[4doors]

Not that any car execs are sending me updates but my understanding was that Subaru and Audi had their own patents and technologies for AWD while the majority of makers were buying from someone else, kind of like many makers buy transmissions from dedicated gear makers like Getrac, GM (e.g. e46), ZF, etc.

This may be the biggest issue with AWD. BMW's AWD may be as plain as that of the Ford Flex because it may in fact be the same AWD system. Not surprised to hear the Silverado had a good system. Despite it's many faults, when they try GM does know how to make a good set of gears.

[haymakers7]

Originally Posted by Mpellizze30

I agree with the subaru thing too; ugly as hell but awsome technology, its a fwd, rwd and awd car all in one and its as reliable as anything on the road. Its a shame they have no styling in or out.

sure subies are fun cars but i work next door to subaru and trust me even the top of the line sti has many issues with turbos, head gaskets etc. so i definately wouldnt refer to it as "reliable" but to each his own i guess

[4doors]

Originally Posted by haymakers7

sure subies are fun cars but i work next door to subaru and trust me even the top of the line sti has many issues with turbos, head gaskets etc. so i definately wouldnt refer to it as "reliable" but to each his own i guess

Sure, you put a turbo in any car and you get a shortened lifespan, unless the turbo is gutless. You want boost? It will cost you. Even among the BMWs, how many 328i drivers get stuck on the side of the road? How many 335i drivers get stuck? I would say Subaru probably has fewer problems than other makes with its turbos and engines though. I don't think even the STi can bring down Subaru's reputation for reliability just as the 335i hasn't crimped BMW sales.

My top 3 picks for reliability are 1) Honda, 2) Toyota, 3) Subaru. But none of these makers are my top 3 car picks. It's likely the LS F is more reliable than the M3 but I'd still pick the M3. Plus, this isn't 15 years ago, when the gap in quality was a lot larger. I'd say the gap is a lot closer today.

[rendered]

Wow, are 2011 Subaru STI 4 door Sedans really that unreliable and ugly? I tend to love their new look and heard the Japanese built car is bomb proof and very reliable... ?

[SamE30e]

Originally Posted by dble Trouble

I think you need to stop watching youtube videos and go to a performance driving school to learn about vehicle dynamics. Friction, grip, handling, etc. Acceleration is one thing, on slick surfaces. But on dry surfaces, like for like an awd will get smoked by it's rwd counterpart. Look at the 911 turbo and the 911 GT2 for example. Or BMW 328 awd to rwd. The video you posted shows an RS6 with 80 more hp and over 100 ft/lbs of torque advantage over the M5, very similar weight, yet only beat it by a couple of car lengths. Thank-you very much for that useless video.

Now though take those same two cars around a turn, or braking??? Exactly. You have to stop getting swayed by all of the mktg types that are telling you awd is better for you etc. 1 advantage and ONLY advantage is slick accelerating. That's it. Everything else is better as awd. Why do you think all of the best super performance cars are rwd??? And you mention the Veyron, don't make me laugh, that car is notoriously known for ill handling and braking. It is a one trick pony and that's top speed. Even acceleration it gets smoked by most super cars to 150mph, only after that does it start to show its 1000 hp. But around a road course it got beat by Mclaren F1, Enzo, 911 GT2, Corvette ZR1 etc.

If you're willing to learn, I could show, and teach you. No sarcasm here. I'm serious. But you have to be willing to learn.

Lets generate a scenario. Hypothetically if the GT2 and 911 turbo weighed the same, which would perform better?

So find two cars that have the same power to weight ratio, one awd and one rwd both with a set of r comps AWD would come out on top.

When you're putting down big power and I'm talking 400+ hp AWD makes a difference.

I've driven a 400whp M3 and a 600whp EVO in high performance scenarios, both with coil overs and aftermarket sway bars, the EVO handled better for sure. My WRX (before the engine ate itself) was fun as hell in the backroads and handled like a dream.