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Old 04-26-2011, 03:52 PM   #16
ScotcH
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Originally Posted by V8specialist View Post
That's why my cross balance is 50.1%.

You apparently need to go back to school.
I've never been to school for this stuff (practical experience and all that) ... where did you go?

So your cross is 50%, but do you have any preload on the bar? If not, and the bar ends are parallel to the horizontal, you got lucky. Most corner balances will need a slightly lower or heigher side, and without at least one adjustable link, it's impossible to bolt back on without preload. What if you want to change the ride height (you do know that ride height affects handling right?) What kind of dampers are you using?

What's your racing experience out of curiosity? How about race car building experience? It would be great to have another experienced racer on the forums to chime in with advice!
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Old 04-27-2011, 02:11 AM   #17
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Well to be honest, I understand from my reading this board is full of losers that talk smack. I assure you I am not one of them.
I lived in bc for years, working at a race prep shop.
I was building an e36 m3 with moton suspension, but was forced to move here for my wifes' work.
I know my shit, so by you second guessin ( Which is understandable, again based on my readings on this site from shit talked and magazine racers)
I was offended initially, but now not so much.
My experience is nothing on the professional circuit, but it's good enough.
I find that adjustable End links are pointless if you can find a solid one piece equivelant.
The length of the link is what matters keeping neutral load on the bar..
Having it adjustable merely mKes it a weak link, since it is no longer one piece. Heavy cornering can actually snap an adjustable link. Not fun on the track hitting say, corner 2 at mosport, at a moderate entry speed.

I love moton suspension. Perfect for someone serious.

Have a good night , good luck to the OP. With the suggestions I made...
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Old 04-27-2011, 12:06 PM   #18
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Old 04-27-2011, 03:27 PM   #19
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late to the party but I think that there are some toyota endlinks that also work.
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Old 04-27-2011, 03:48 PM   #20
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I bought the ones V8 suggested, I can confirm perfect fitment. They look look very durable, any idea on how often I should grease them?
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:27 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by V8specialist View Post
Well to be honest, I understand from my reading this board is full of losers that talk smack.
I wouldn't say losers, but certainly max leans towards the street tuner crowd ... not that there's anything wrong with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8specialist View Post
I find that adjustable End links are pointless if you can find a solid one piece equivelant.
The length of the link is what matters keeping neutral load on the bar..
Having it adjustable merely mKes it a weak link, since it is no longer one piece. Heavy cornering can actually snap an adjustable link. Not fun on the track hitting say, corner 2 at mosport, at a moderate entry speed.
Your race shop didn't teach you very well. Adjustable end links are NOT to set the length of the link. They are to remove pre-load on the bar in steady state (ie, when the car is sitting there). If you have coil-overs (one of the reasons for which is to be able to corner balance a car), you might need to adjust individual corners up or down slightly to get a perfect cross balance. If your end links are fixed, there is no way to then have the bar attached to the strut without any twist. Your corner balance can be perfect 50% cross, but your bar will be putting additional tortional load into your suspension, effectively adding spring rate to one side. This is not optimal for a perfect and predictible suspension setup.

The idea is that without cornering forces (and as a result body roll), your anti-roll bars should be doing absolutely nothing, and only come into play during cornering. Adjustable end links make this possible ... fixed ones do not.

Finally, if your end links are snapping, then something is wrong. The end link hemi joints must not bind while going through the entire range of motion of the suspension. If they bind, they can snap (or bend). This is not the fault of the links, but rather operator (or designer) error. The links should only ever see compression and strech forces. The strengh of aluminum tubing used in most links is PLENTY strong enough for that. The hemi joints themselves (assuming they are decent quality) are usually rated for 1000s psi. Again, plenty strong!

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8specialist View Post
I love moton suspension. Perfect for someone serious.
Yes they are. We use Moton tripples on the e46 race cars, and JRZ doubles on the e36. great stuff!

Ok, lesson over. Just trying to shed some light on why some things are done the way they are .... for the street, this is practically useless information, but it is always good to have the full picture. Sorry for the OT.

OP: Glad you got it sorted. Don't go too low ... it messes up handling big time in a mac strut design without roll center correction.
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:31 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by andrew.k View Post
I bought the ones V8 suggested, I can confirm perfect fitment. They look look very durable, any idea on how often I should grease them?
I'm glad it worked out for you. Not everyone on here is talking out of their ass! ( those people know who they are..)
Well the links come dry. I put 4 pump of an old school greasegun, or until u see the rubber boot swell up. My boots were not attached, just covering the joint, so I just make sure a little bit of grease starts coming out of the boot area. Again my boots were not attached. If yours are , fill till the boot is firm.

Glad it worked out for you!
And you considered adjustable end links..
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Old 04-28-2011, 01:38 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ScotcH View Post
I wouldn't say losers, but certainly max leans towards the street tuner crowd ... not that there's anything wrong with that.



Your race shop didn't teach you very well. Adjustable end links are NOT to set the length of the link. They are to remove pre-load on the bar in steady state (ie, when the car is sitting there). If you have coil-overs (one of the reasons for which is to be able to corner balance a car), you might need to adjust individual corners up or down slightly to get a perfect cross balance. If your end links are fixed, there is no way to then have the bar attached to the strut without any twist. Your corner balance can be perfect 50% cross, but your bar will be putting additional tortional load into your suspension, effectively adding spring rate to one side. This is not optimal for a perfect and predictible suspension setup.

The idea is that without cornering forces (and as a result body roll), your anti-roll bars should be doing absolutely nothing, and only come into play during cornering. Adjustable end links make this possible ... fixed ones do not.

Finally, if your end links are snapping, then something is wrong. The end link hemi joints must not bind while going through the entire range of motion of the suspension. If they bind, they can snap (or bend). This is not the fault of the links, but rather operator (or designer) error. The links should only ever see compression and strech forces. The strengh of aluminum tubing used in most links is PLENTY strong enough for that. The hemi joints themselves (assuming they are decent quality) are usually rated for 1000s psi. Again, plenty strong!



Yes they are. We use Moton tripples on the e46 race cars, and JRZ doubles on the e36. great stuff!

Ok, lesson over. Just trying to shed some light on why some things are done the way they are .... for the street, this is practically useless information, but it is always good to have the full picture. Sorry for the OT.

OP: Glad you got it sorted. Don't go too low ... it messes up handling big time in a mac strut design without roll center correction.
You're right lesson over. That's a nice essay. Are you glad you proved to your max peers you can cut and paste from a suspension geometry theories book..
I've been on here for about a week, and childish banter I've read about has finally begun. Haters gonna hate.
As long as you think you know your stuff, great, just dont get anyone killed when you 'dial in their suspension' champ.
As for the op, he can slam the shit out of his car and not have any sway bar/link issues. Ive done it, tucking 18x9.5 rims with no issues.
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:14 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V8specialist View Post
You're right lesson over. That's a nice essay. Are you glad you proved to your max peers you can cut and paste from a suspension geometry theories book..
I've been on here for about a week, and childish banter I've read about has finally begun. Haters gonna hate.
As long as you think you know your stuff, great, just dont get anyone killed when you 'dial in their suspension' champ.
As for the op, he can slam the shit out of his car and not have any sway bar/link issues. Ive done it, tucking 18x9.5 rims with no issues.
I suggest you meet and greet some of the people on this forum before talking like this. Scotch (Arek) is a very knowledgeable guy and not some punk kid. Not to mention he's raced BMW's in CCTCC for years...

Oh and to the guys talking about using GM swaybar links, stay away! I worked at a GM dealership for a year in the parts department. Swaybar links on most vehicles were shot after 5,000km.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:03 AM   #25
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I suggest you meet and greet some of the people on this forum before talking like this. Scotch (Arek) is a very knowledgeable guy and not some punk kid. Not to mention he's raced BMW's in CCTCC for years...

Oh and to the guys talking about using GM swaybar links, stay away! I worked at a GM dealership for a year in the parts department. Swaybar links on most vehicles were shot after 5,000km.
I never debated he was an inexperienced racer, I know about the castrol touring championship, soon to be operated by continental tires.
Im assuming you have experience as well, since you are speaking for him?
I could very easily say the same thing, I would say meet before you talk, but everyone is entitled to an OPINION, he seems very knowledgeable, although I don't agree with alot of his comments.

I've had those gm links on my wifes' e46. 46k and going strong.
Maybe you had a bad batch of parts??? Nothing wrong with thinking outside of the box.. You would be amazed what you can come up with.
Not trying to be a dick, but how much experience in building cars do you have?
I'm sure it's commendable, working with Scott.
Good night , the purpose of this this thread was completed.
I'm sure this forum, as I will find, in time, isn't only filled with punks...
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Old 04-28-2011, 11:04 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by V8specialist View Post
You're right lesson over. That's a nice essay. Are you glad you proved to your max peers you can cut and paste from a suspension geometry theories book..
I've been on here for about a week, and childish banter I've read about has finally begun. Haters gonna hate.
As long as you think you know your stuff, great, just dont get anyone killed when you 'dial in their suspension' champ.
As for the op, he can slam the shit out of his car and not have any sway bar/link issues. Ive done it, tucking 18x9.5 rims with no issues.
OK dude. You've proven your point .... opinion is more important than facts (which didn't come from a book, but if it sounds like it, maybe there's something to that, eh?) and everyone is entitled to one (even if it's wrong). That's cool.

Btw, you can't call me "champ" ... I haven't won the championship yet. Maybe this year? We'll see.

As for "slamming", I didn't say anything about sway bar or link problems.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:20 PM   #27
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Well I figure from how you talk, you must won 3 seasons in a row. Maybe there is something related to your winning streak and suspension knowledge.

Good luck in the upcoming season, future champ.
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Old 04-28-2011, 12:37 PM   #28
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just wow.
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Old 04-28-2011, 02:09 PM   #29
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Why do some people think that u need preload to get a perfect corner balance?
You don't need an adjustable link. I see what you are saying, if the driver was like 600 pounds and causing a preload... Ok. But really if someone is that big should they be racing? The bar in actuality should be disconnected during a c/b, all the cars I did were neutral (zero load), and they balanced out fine.
I came in here initially to help the OP with his links, he's happy, said his thanks, I
So I really dont get why this adjustable link crap is bring dragged on!
It has nothing to do with this thread!
All of my customers are happy, I've been doing this since 2004.
Good luck to the Guys in Ottawa, maybe I'll see u in the continental series..
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:07 PM   #30
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Andrew Karski...u started this curva
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