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Old 07-20-2009, 05:56 PM   #31
Rice
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union == triad, mafia, gang banger. When they don't get what they want they play dirty and the public gets screwed, nuff said.
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:07 PM   #32
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Ok, sirux, let's play a game.

I'm getting tired of you chanting this BS with no proof. You keep on just saying these things that don't really add up since they suit your argument. You keep saying how the issues are NOT sick days but other things. Well PROVE IT.

The reason I'm personally against it is because regardless of who is in the union, it's unreasonable to expect to BANK your sick days, which are used in case you're sick, not to go on ****ing vacation.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...13?hub=Toronto

Here is a quote from said article:

But the mayor also said the issue of sick days -- one of the most contentious issues between the two sides -- is still a concern for the city.

Currently, union workers get 18 sick days each year, with the ability to bank the ones they don't use. By cashing their banked sick days in at retirement, they can receive up to six months pay -- a practice the city wants to end.


THERE. There is my proof of why I think the strike is bullshit, now go and argue why you think it's fine for them to bank their sick days and get paid for them and retire early.

Stop chanting wages, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT IT'S ABOUT. I haven't heard wages mentioned anywhere except this thread by you.

You say that the city is shafting these workers - HOW? Not letting them use sick days as vacation (on tax payers money) is shafting them?
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:38 PM   #33
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I'm getting tired of you chanting this BS with no proof. You keep on just saying these things that don't really add up since they suit your argument. You keep saying how the issues are NOT sick days but other things. Well PROVE IT.
what BS am I chanting without proof? Sick days is not the only reason they are on strike. You can take that however you want.



Sure Ill argue for that; 18 sick days each year, what if you dont use them at all? What if youre never sick? But then Mr. Imalways sick every month, sitting in the cubicle is calling in sick on Mondays, or fridays, to get time off. hows that fair?

Your Reward, for never calling in sick, is that you get to bank them. WOW what a reward, you get 6 months pay after you worked for the city for 45 years!!! WOW. Heaven forbid you give something back to your employees.

Did you know, youre also taxed VERY heavily when you go to withdraw that cash? Probably not, but I guess everything is so cut and dry on the inets.

what is your rebuttle to taht? So maybe what the employees should do is just call in sick then, even when they are not sick to use those days up I guess? Because that clearly seems to be the solution you seem to be sprouting.

sounds like a shaft to me that your neighbor cubicle employe is calling in sick once per month, While youre awlays on time and dedicated..... Really?

Lets not forget the cost of calling in sick. someones got to cover. often times that means more wages are lost because now you gotta have a temp come in, OR someone else covers for over time pay. but like i said, on the internet, Everyone is an economist with all the asnwers so cut and dry and simple.. WOOOOO Eeeeee

If anything, the city prospers from Sick days being banked, and cashed out, rather then used when ever someone feels like missing a day.
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Old 07-21-2009, 04:17 AM   #34
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Everyone gets sick. People who end up banking their sick days generally go in to work anyway (and are far less productive, and get people sick while they're at it). There's no way you can argue that this is good for the city. This makes some sense in the private sector, where overworking by certain specific employees can directly and exponentially raise profits and productivity. In the public sector this is a retarded idea.

You want perks? Dont work for the government. You want amazing benefits, and to get paid between 30-60% more than you should? Work for the government.

And before everyone jumps on the hating on propr'one bandwagon, both my parents are government employees. And despite my parents usual socialist ****ing bullshit, in this case, they actually agree with me.
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:36 AM   #35
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There really is no point in debating with someone when they can't defend the question at hand. Save your breath guys.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:15 AM   #36
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Sirex how about this

Maybe instead of unionized city workers they should temp that shit out there wouldnt be any service disruptions that way if someone didnt feel they were being treated fair **** em order a new temp garbage gets picked up crying stops!!

You agree, yes? Discussion over...
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:15 PM   #37
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I haven't cried about my garbage not being picked up.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:18 PM   #38
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There really is no point in debating with someone when they can't defend the question at hand. Save your breath guys.

what is the question at hand?

All I see is:

Those who hate unions posting up their arguments of " **** those guys they dont deserve shit" - some real class A discussion there.

And

Those who are trying to make sense of all this and explain it in a bit more detail and why its not that bad, or wrong.
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:20 PM   #39
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And before everyone jumps on the hating on propr'one bandwagon, both my parents are government employees. And despite my parents usual socialist ****ing bullshit, in this case, they actually agree with me.
I dont hate you. I hate everybody equally

ha

Socialist are always backwards. When everything is going their way its great. Soon as something interupts their fantasy utopia, they curse the shit out of it.
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:12 PM   #40
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Why do unions think they are above other working stiffs,yes ANY worker would love to be part of any city run unions,the pay is crazy and the benefits are top level BUT if everyone got paid like the unions do everyday expenses would be skyhigh.You cannot expect %90 of non union tax payers to absorb higher taxes (property,dumb fees) so %10 of the unionize workforce have the cake and eat it too.Sirex wake up people are losing their jobs and companies are holding or slashing wages,whats so special about city unions that they deserve anymore?.Dont go crying about the politicians and police,firefighters got their raises,Miller made a mistake and hes holding the line on the insider workers,he must start somewhere.I would love to see the union get their increases in wages and sick days and watch the commie Miller slash %10 or the union workforce.
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Old 07-23-2009, 01:00 PM   #41
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I think the main issue is that one union envelopes far too many jobs covered by the city. Paramedics lumped in with garbage men? That's unreal... there is no way they deserve the same benefits, pay raise or pay scale that a paramedic gets.

Paramedics go to school for 3 years and have to put in hundreds of hours before they can become licensed. Their jobs are stressful, gruesome, and draining. They save lives for a living. The police, fire, and paramedics should be essential services under their own union. A union for those services is COMPLETELY understandable in my opinion.

Desk jobs like welfare, building inspectors, restaurant inspectors, etc. should also be unionized under their own union. These people are trained professionals with years of education and in many cases, experience. You pay top dollar for the services of these individuals and they deserve many of the benefits they get. Try working in the Toronto Welfare office for a week and you tell me if you can handle that kind of stress. My Aunt and Uncle work for City of Toronto Welfare & Social Services and both are suffering anxiety right now knowing that people are starving out there without their help. These people care about their jobs and what they do for people, and they do NOT want to be on strike.

Child care services / public pools / etc. borderline need a union and should fall under their own umbrella. I think these workers could easily live without a union and make a fair wage... they would also require benefits but do NOT deserve the benefits of the more major essential services like police/fire/ambulance. My next door neighbour works at a City of Toronto Daycare center and she says the 1% raise that was offered was tremendously jealous. She doesn't want to be on strike at all.

And now - the big gripe... non essential services that require little training and almost zero education. Groundskeepers for parks, garbage men, snow plows, street cleaners, etc etc. These people should NOT be unionized... they do NOT deserve the pay that the brackets above them earn, nor do they deserve anywhere near the same benefits. These people are 100% replaceable any day of the week and frankly should be happy they even HAVE a job. THESE are the people that WANT to be on strike right now... they are the ones at the front of the picket lines holding up 70 year old women while the office workers/daycare/paramedics are standing at the back looking miserable. Those people do not want to be on strike earning $200 a week for 20 hours of picketing... they want to be working and helping people.

What we need is a major restructuring to the way that the City of Toronto pays its assorted workers. The unions need to be split, the non essential workers need to be fired / de-unionized and replaced. The essential services require a new contract and to go back to doing what they do best - help run this city.

What the public needs to understand is - as always - it's the maggots at the bottom of the barrel that want the most and deserve the least. Between them and the union heads, this strike will keep going. The people in the middle who work hard, love their jobs and WANT to go back to work right now are stuck in limbo as you are THREATENED by the union to go picket, otherwise face ostersization.

The union system is flawed, it gives too much power to those who don't deserve it, and entraps the people that do.

As a resident of Toronto, I hope they stay on strike so they can flush out the people at the bottom. I feel very badly for people like my neighbour though who don't want to be on strike and are starving on $200 a week for 20 hours of standing outside in front of a rotting pile of garbage against their will.

-Chris-
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:39 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by BlitzSix View Post
Do you even know what they're striking about? It's not about a raise, it's due to them wanting ot use their "bank" of sick days to retire early (or something like that) which is ridiculous as they are SICK days, not save-them-up-and-go-on-vacation days.
...or something like that. You sound pretty informed.
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Originally Posted by Rice View Post
Ok so because the mayor and his goons gave themself a raise and the union people didn't get their "share" they decided to hold the city hostage until they get their "share" of the loot. WTF man, in bad time 90% of the population didn't get a raise for the last couple of years, they got their benefits cut or "deferred". What makes these union fools think they're more special than everyone else and get their demands met in bad times at the expense of other hard working folks.
In good times, private sector employees can see raises of upwards of 14% in a single year, not counting bonuses. Public sector employees would be incredibly lucky to see 3% and there is never EVER any performance based bonuses. But hey, shit on the union in bad times and ignore them in good. Its the N. American way.
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i dont care about the quality of employees picking up my trash. Its not hard. I've been doing it for a few weeks now, and i'm a ****ing moron, and dont have any problems getting it done.
I hope you're claiming all this money come tax season
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Originally Posted by Rice View Post
I really don't think it's hate that we're talking about here but just disgust. They are pretty much robbing the public with these kind of demands. So the mayor and his councellors are fooked up by giving themself these kind of raises, doesn't mean that these union can and should jump on the bandwagon and use the general public as bargaining chips.
Agreed. I don't support the goon tactics. This should have gone to arbitration, not to a strike.
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Originally Posted by BlitzSix View Post
Okay let's get one thing straight. Stop talking like these employees are working for low wages or something. They are making a ridiculous amount of money for the work they do. That's why people have a problem. This has gone BEYOND fair wages, all the way too "you can't be serious" level of ridiculousness.

Correct me if I'm wrong (with a proper source please, not just you typing that I'm wrong), but the sick days was the MAIN reason they went on strike. And sorry, but they are being completely unreasonable with this. Again, these are government workers we're talking about. We all know that government workers get treated VERY VERY well for what they do, but they STILL want more, and act entitled to it. Nobody has it as easy as government workers, that's why everyone wants a government job. The work is easy, you get 20 coffee breaks a day, good pay, you basically can't get fired from most of these, and benefits... yeah..

The other problem I have with the garbage workers striking is that it's UNSKILLED LABOR. ANYONE CAN DO IT. When you have a job that quite literally pretty much anyone off the street can do - sorry - but you can't expect a huge salary - and honestly they make A LOT more than really they should. I'm not trying to say that to be an ass or "omg they're just garbage workers" but this is how the economy works.

You know why American car companies are going bankrupt? Partially because they have to pay like $35 an hour for a simple factory job that a retard can do. Why do they have to pay that? Because they unions are unreasonable. Yeah, when you are forced to pay an unrealistic, enormous wages to people who do simple tasks that takes a toll on your business. It completely ****s up the economy when the cost of labor is artificially driven up. Sorry but someone doing a mindless task doesn't deserve $35 an hour.

And, unless they actually gain skill and move onto other (more demanding) jobs, they DO NOT deserve crazy seniority and automatic raises etc.

Again, not trying to say this to be an ass, but when you just drive up the wage to do simple tasks to prices of SKILLED labor, yeah, that's not fair, and the economy reflects that.... it's unnatural for them to get paid that much..

Apologies for going slightly off topic..
You are generalizing about wages across the board here and you've padded a Toronto garbageman's salary by an extra $10/hr. They make $23-$25/hr on average while TorCan and Turtle Island pay between $17-$20/hr. HOWEVER TorCan and Turtle Island offer bonuses and OT hours that can easily put their employees salaries over that of a City worker who never EVER receive performance based incentives. That being said, Im not saying I agree with $23-$25/hr either... just giving you something to think about. You think the city is shelling out gold bars to workers and that's hardly the case.
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Originally Posted by atm2000 View Post
I fail to realise how you justify resposibilitties of an union vs responsibilitites of the mayor/councillers in regards to pay raises. It is a failacity to assume they both go in parrallel.

In the "real-world" a raise is not an expected right, you need to work for that pay raise - this is reflected in your job performance, not your seniority, sick-days, rank, or privilege of your position in an union. Pay raises are not a right, you need to work for it - is this so backward that you can't comprehend? No one has a job for life these days, get over that mentality. People move, people adadpt to life changes, this is the reality faced by people working in the private sector.
Agreed. I'd love to nix the whopping 1% we hope to get in favour of a yearly bonus (like the 3% management receives) or performance based incentive like the private sector has.
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Originally Posted by europrince View Post
I'm not at all surprised that Sirex is in favour of the strike.

They missed two pay cheques now. Let's see how many more they miss before they come to their senses.
Every week off is a 2% loss. At this point, even at 7% over 4 years... Cupe members are at -3% and counting now over 4 years.
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:40 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by StikiGreenZ View Post
So you have all the answers eh? How much did the cost of living go up this year?

Here's your answer:
Consumer prices fell 0.3% in June compared with June 2008, following a 0.1% increase in May. It was the first 12-month decline in the all-items Consumer Price Index (CPI) since November 1994.

Source: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/subjects-su...pi-ipc-eng.htm

They have been offered a 1% increase this year, which from what I'm reading, falls in line (or exceeds) inflation. So everyone should get raises when the times are good and cost of living is rising. But when times are bad, according to you, we should just suck it up?

I fail to understand why you compare garbage men (a job anyone can do) to city councillors. Maybe they did a good job last year to deserve it. As a web designer, I received a 5% raise last year, does that mean garbage men, sewer cleaners and janitors should also get that raise? Because my hard work that earned my company more profit is somehow related to them?

When a garbage man (or city worker) invents or comes up with a way to increase efficiency or reduce costs or make the city more profitable, then he should get a raise. Until then, he should shut up, do the job HE WILLINGLY applied for, or quit and find something else. I cannot stand these people that take on jobs knowing the salary, only to strike and complain a year later.
How easily you ignore inflation over the past 4 years and zoom in on a 0.3% decrease. get real. I'd kill to have an opportunity to be rewarded for saving money. I can move half our server environment over to Linux in a heartbeat and save millions but Management has shot that idea down time and time again. I guess they're pretty cozy with Sun and Oracle. hell I'd be happy with a 1% raise for every mil I save, It'd be like shooting fish in a barrel.
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Originally Posted by Rice View Post
union == triad, mafia, gang banger. When they don't get what they want they play dirty and the public gets screwed, nuff said.
yup, she's a regular Hells Angel allright.

http://www.thestar.com/article/667650

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitzSix View Post
Ok, sirux, let's play a game.

I'm getting tired of you chanting this BS with no proof. You keep on just saying these things that don't really add up since they suit your argument. You keep saying how the issues are NOT sick days but other things. Well PROVE IT.

The reason I'm personally against it is because regardless of who is in the union, it's unreasonable to expect to BANK your sick days, which are used in case you're sick, not to go on ****ing vacation.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...13?hub=Toronto

Here is a quote from said article:

But the mayor also said the issue of sick days -- one of the most contentious issues between the two sides -- is still a concern for the city.

Currently, union workers get 18 sick days each year, with the ability to bank the ones they don't use. By cashing their banked sick days in at retirement, they can receive up to six months pay -- a practice the city wants to end.


THERE. There is my proof of why I think the strike is bullshit, now go and argue why you think it's fine for them to bank their sick days and get paid for them and retire early.

Stop chanting wages, BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT IT'S ABOUT. I haven't heard wages mentioned anywhere except this thread by you.

You say that the city is shafting these workers - HOW? Not letting them use sick days as vacation (on tax payers money) is shafting them?
Cupe agrees to get rid of the sick bank. Everyone agrees the sick bank is goners. The issue is HOW to get rid of it. Cupe's problem is that the City wants to pay peanuts for the existing banked days. They want to pay everyone with under 10 years seniority $700, and people above that 35% of 50% of their banked days.

Quote:
Originally Posted by propr'one View Post
Everyone gets sick. People who end up banking their sick days generally go in to work anyway (and are far less productive, and get people sick while they're at it). There's no way you can argue that this is good for the city. This makes some sense in the private sector, where overworking by certain specific employees can directly and exponentially raise profits and productivity. In the public sector this is a retarded idea.

You want perks? Dont work for the government. You want amazing benefits, and to get paid between 30-60% more than you should? Work for the government.

And before everyone jumps on the hating on propr'one bandwagon, both my parents are government employees. And despite my parents usual socialist ****ing bullshit, in this case, they actually agree with me.
Get paid 30% - 60% more than you should? Where do I sign up for that. While we're pulling random percentages out of our arses I think self employed contractors only pay 30%-60% of the taxes they should.

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There really is no point in debating with someone when they can't defend the question at hand. Save your breath guys.
Whats the question? I'm up for a good ol' debate
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by BMW_7 View Post
Sirex how about this

Maybe instead of unionized city workers they should temp that shit out there wouldnt be any service disruptions that way if someone didnt feel they were being treated fair **** em order a new temp garbage gets picked up crying stops!!

You agree, yes? Discussion over...
If you think City work is so great, how many applications have you submitted for a position there? You keep saying it's so rosy so let me ask you... why havent you applied?
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Originally Posted by daytona View Post
Why do unions think they are above other working stiffs,yes ANY worker would love to be part of any city run unions,the pay is crazy and the benefits are top level BUT if everyone got paid like the unions do everyday expenses would be skyhigh.You cannot expect %90 of non union tax payers to absorb higher taxes (property,dumb fees) so %10 of the unionize workforce have the cake and eat it too.Sirex wake up people are losing their jobs and companies are holding or slashing wages,whats so special about city unions that they deserve anymore?.Dont go crying about the politicians and police,firefighters got their raises,Miller made a mistake and hes holding the line on the insider workers,he must start somewhere.I would love to see the union get their increases in wages and sick days and watch the commie Miller slash %10 or the union workforce.
oh ya, pay is Cr@Zy!! Remember that garbageman rolling around in his Bentley? Ya.... neither do I. He rides the same $1.2 BILLION dollar street car you do. You really think salaries put even a DENT in the city's budget? c'mon. Wake up and read a budget report before you spout off the same propeganda BS you heard from a friend of a friend.
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Originally Posted by SweetnessGT View Post
I think the main issue is that one union envelopes far too many jobs covered by the city. Paramedics lumped in with garbage men? That's unreal... there is no way they deserve the same benefits, pay raise or pay scale that a paramedic gets.

Paramedics go to school for 3 years and have to put in hundreds of hours before they can become licensed. Their jobs are stressful, gruesome, and draining. They save lives for a living. The police, fire, and paramedics should be essential services under their own union. A union for those services is COMPLETELY understandable in my opinion.

Desk jobs like welfare, building inspectors, restaurant inspectors, etc. should also be unionized under their own union. These people are trained professionals with years of education and in many cases, experience. You pay top dollar for the services of these individuals and they deserve many of the benefits they get. Try working in the Toronto Welfare office for a week and you tell me if you can handle that kind of stress. My Aunt and Uncle work for City of Toronto Welfare & Social Services and both are suffering anxiety right now knowing that people are starving out there without their help. These people care about their jobs and what they do for people, and they do NOT want to be on strike.

Child care services / public pools / etc. borderline need a union and should fall under their own umbrella. I think these workers could easily live without a union and make a fair wage... they would also require benefits but do NOT deserve the benefits of the more major essential services like police/fire/ambulance. My next door neighbour works at a City of Toronto Daycare center and she says the 1% raise that was offered was tremendously jealous. She doesn't want to be on strike at all.

And now - the big gripe... non essential services that require little training and almost zero education. Groundskeepers for parks, garbage men, snow plows, street cleaners, etc etc. These people should NOT be unionized... they do NOT deserve the pay that the brackets above them earn, nor do they deserve anywhere near the same benefits. These people are 100% replaceable any day of the week and frankly should be happy they even HAVE a job. THESE are the people that WANT to be on strike right now... they are the ones at the front of the picket lines holding up 70 year old women while the office workers/daycare/paramedics are standing at the back looking miserable. Those people do not want to be on strike earning $200 a week for 20 hours of picketing... they want to be working and helping people.

What we need is a major restructuring to the way that the City of Toronto pays its assorted workers. The unions need to be split, the non essential workers need to be fired / de-unionized and replaced. The essential services require a new contract and to go back to doing what they do best - help run this city.

What the public needs to understand is - as always - it's the maggots at the bottom of the barrel that want the most and deserve the least. Between them and the union heads, this strike will keep going. The people in the middle who work hard, love their jobs and WANT to go back to work right now are stuck in limbo as you are THREATENED by the union to go picket, otherwise face ostersization.

The union system is flawed, it gives too much power to those who don't deserve it, and entraps the people that do.

As a resident of Toronto, I hope they stay on strike so they can flush out the people at the bottom. I feel very badly for people like my neighbour though who don't want to be on strike and are starving on $200 a week for 20 hours of standing outside in front of a rotting pile of garbage against their will.

-Chris-
If there was an award for the best post, you'd get it. You hit the nail on the head with the union. There shouldn't be one giant union for all but rather smaller, more specialized unions similar to plumbers, welders etc. That way they can get the benefits needed specific to their area such as firefighters fighting for health coverage and insurance. This giant union is too big to properly meet the needs of everyone under it's umbrella.
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:10 PM   #45
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And my comment about them getting paid to much (30-60%) is based on my figures garbage men making between 26-38$ an hour.
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