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Old 02-23-2012, 09:47 AM   #1
Colombian
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For everyone who loves their APPLE products



From another forum.. something to think about when you looking to upgrade your IPAD , or IPHONE !! Also keep in mind that this company is the most valuable in the world today and have more cash in hand than many countries in countries and lately been suing everyone else because they apparently using their ideas (aka patents) and their loosing profit !!

" ABC shows off harsh working conditions at Foxconn
Written by Andre Yoskowitz @ 22 Feb 2012 19:51

Last night, ABC had a Nightline special which reported on the working conditions in the Foxconn plants at Shenzhen and Chengdu.
Each supply plant makes Apple products like the iPad and iPhone. The special, which was only 17 minutes long, confirmed what many already believed; that workers are extremely overworked and underpaid.

Mashable has collected a great amount of facts from the report, some of which are pretty shocking. For the most part, however, the conditions were not as horrible as most media would have you believe.

First, each worker makes $1.78 per hour, and live in a cramped dorm room on the factory's campus for $17 per month. Each worker has seven roommates. Lunch costs $0.70 for meat and rice, and each worker gets two one-hour meal breaks during their 12-hour shift.

To create just one iPad, it takes five days and 375 people. However, workers can make 300,000 iPad cameras for the device in just two 12-hour shifts. Some workers create the aluminum exterior design (with Apple logo) at the rate of about 10,000 per hour.

Some workers were as young as 13, but most were in their late teens, said the report.

Despite the conditions, the report showed 3000 youths lining up outside the factory hoping for work. Foxconn expects to hire 2400 of them as demand for Apple products remains through the roof. "
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:21 AM   #2
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Agreed, harsh working conditions are terrible, and no one deserves that. On the other side of the debate, if a countries labour laws are so lax, of course companies will take advantage. With globalization today, companies have to do all they can to cut costs and stay competitive. Not saying its ideal, but how can we expect them not to? I think it falls on governments like china who allow their workers to be exploited like this for the good of their nation.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:34 AM   #3
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That's a bullshit slant to attack Apple. Foxconn makes all kinds of things, including all 3 of the popular game consoles.

With regards to Apple's lawsuit legitimacy, if anyone has any doubt that the modern smartphone market is a giant iphone ripoff, I propose to you a graphic showing what phones looked like before (when everyone incl Motorola and HTC, insisted that a smartphone without a real keyboard would NEVER work) and after the iphone. It's no one's business how much money they are or aren't making. Bottom line is the design is their patented IP and it's being ripped off harder than the lightbulb.



Also, before/after ipad

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Old 02-23-2012, 12:31 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by BigD View Post
That's a bullshit slant to attack Apple. Foxconn makes all kinds of things, including all 3 of the popular game consoles.

With regards to Apple's lawsuit legitimacy, if anyone has any doubt that the modern smartphone market is a giant iphone ripoff, I propose to you a graphic showing what phones looked like before (when everyone incl Motorola and HTC, insisted that a smartphone without a real keyboard would NEVER work) and after the iphone. It's no one's business how much money they are or aren't making. Bottom line is the design is their patented IP and it's being ripped off harder than the lightbulb.



Also, before/after ipad

you think everyone is ripping off the iPhone, guess you never seen the LG Prada phone that was introduced in 2006 & then sold in Janaury 2007, before the first iPhone was even for sale, it was a large display touch screen phone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LG_Prada and that isn't the only one, there were large touch screen phones back in the early 90's as well, just not practical & affordable at that time.

also the pic comparing tablets, you choose pics of PC tablets, even PC tablets today are still bigger than normal tablets, and besides Apple didn't invent tablets that are small, haven't you seen 2001: Space Odyssey, they had flat rectangler tablets in that movie, what about Star Trek, the list goes all.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:09 PM   #5
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you think everyone is ripping off the iPhone, guess you never seen the LG Prada phone that was introduced in 2006 & then sold in Janaury 2007, before the first iPhone was even for sale, it was a large display touch screen phone http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LG_Prada and that isn't the only one, there were large touch screen phones back in the early 90's as well, just not practical & affordable at that time.

also the pic comparing tablets, you choose pics of PC tablets, even PC tablets today are still bigger than normal tablets, and besides Apple didn't invent tablets that are small, haven't you seen 2001: Space Odyssey, they had flat rectangler tablets in that movie, what about Star Trek, the list goes all.
I don't remember any large screen phones, or screen phones in the early 90s (well I guess Zack Morris had an LCD number readout).

Regarding the LG and any other possible devices, the point isn't the large screen but the interface. One of the major patent infringements that everyone ripped off without blinking is the slide to unlock. The iphone was the first device to basically move the entire UI to the touchscreen, and the slide to unlock, while seemingly trivial now, is one of the things that made this feasible. When the other makers said that a qwerty-less smartphone would never work, they were right, which is why other than exceptions like that, there weren't any (I think there were a few keyboard-less winmo phones but they were expectedly shit, HTC touch comes to mind). It indeed couldn't work well, not the way they did it. Now, other than for some BB addicts, there's no other way.

I have to admit that I resisted the iphone for a long time, which speaks poorly of me since I'm a software guy specializing in UI. I've tried keyboard-less smartphones and hated them, assuming the iphone would be no different. So I stuck to the Nokia and Treo. Then before getting a tytn2, I tried an iphone and became a believer.
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:10 PM   #6
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I believe people are not looking at pay objectively.

Lets look at the math;
Foxconn employees make $1.78/hr USD. (According to the reports)
1 Chinese yuan = $0.15 USD (taken with today's exchange rate)

So per hour Foxconn employees make
$1.78 USD = $11.21 Chinese yuan

Now lets look at this compared to the cost of living like company lunch and dorm rental fees.

Lunch:
$0.70US = $4.40 in Chinese Yuan
Worked out to a percentage against hourly pay we get the cost of lunch to be approximately 39.2%.

Assume that I am working a job in Ontario making minimum wage ($10.25/hr) and I go for lunch at subway and get the $5 special which after tax works out to $5.65. So my lunch cost me about 55% of my hourly wage. So Lunch as a percentage of what I make in Ontario costs just over 15% more than in China.

Housing:
$15 US/Month = $94.47 Chinese yuan/month @ today's rate
which means that a Foxconn employee would have to work ~8.5 hours to pay for it. I don't even need to to the math to know that a minimum wage person in Ontario would have to work almost 50 hours to pay for some of the lowest cost rentals in the province(Windsor @ 490, Sudbury @ 515). Of course that is all taken without accounting for income taxes.

So you can see that while the pay is very low when put into North American currencies, it all relative to the cost of living. If the Chinese gov. allowed the Yuan to fully appreciate the pay discrepancy would almost completely disappear. This will be a real issue that China will face at some point. As you may imagine if the advantage of western currencies is removed from the Chinese labour market so too is the competitive advantage. This should lead to a lot of jobs being relocated back to developed countries as it would be the same, or less(due to less transportation of goods), cost to manufacture.

Conditions, I agree, seem unacceptable to western cultures but if looked at objectively are not that bad either. I am by no means saying I want to go work at Foxconn. Our cultures have different ideas of how much "personal space" an individual needs. If you have ever been pushed around at a Casio by Chinese tourists you have already experienced this delta. I don't pretend to assume these workers are happy to live/sleep with 14 other people. I am simply saying its relative; what we perceive as 'horrendous' may only be considered 'not great' by Chinese standards. There are many cultures that where sharing rooms/houses with multiple people/families is considered normal.

I think the real atrocities are more related to work hours/breaks/minimum working ages. It should be noted that conditions/ages/hours/pay were common problems shared with western countries during the industrial revolution. It was not until the rise of unions that everything promptly changed. Almost all the workers rights we have today exist because of that process.

I am not saying everything in the Chinese labour market is peachy, it is not, simply pointing out that it only seems extraordinarily bad because of currencies/cultural differences coupled with sensationalist propaganda to sell the stories.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:55 AM   #7
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i stayed up to watch it.
was no different than any other factory in china..and im not fond of apple.

if theres something to hate on apple.

why the hell did steve jobs not donate to charity like many others do? (gates, buffet etc)

and if its such a wonderful company how are they not on the forbes top companies to work for?

those are legitimate ...the factory stuff...standard chinese practice.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:34 AM   #8
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why the hell did steve jobs not donate to charity like many others do? (gates, buffet etc)
The bio book talks about this. He tried but he found that the charities he became involved with would try to use him without his permission to raise money and mostly he was repulsed by the way the other "celebrities" acted who donated to charity. He gave lots of money for a while but told no one. And he observed how other people who did this really only did it for personal gain, either for tax purposes or bragging rights (which is a good point - why do you know about all these other big philanthropists? because they make sure it's known).

The other reason is the general impression I got from the book - the guy was actually a very serious piece of shit with major mental malfunctions. He may be a technological visionary but a man on a pedestal or a role model of any kind he is not. I'm pretty surprised they let the book go as is, it doesn't just "show his human side" like some people say, it paints a very grim picture of him. I was mainly just left feeling sorry for anyone he crossed paths with.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:56 AM   #9
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Welcome to the modern marketplace where consumers demand cheap goods for the "have it all" generation. Much like the "instant home" trend in housing, goods become cheaper and made cheaper to meet this demand for everyone to fill every room in their house... typically on credit.

Not like our parents generation.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:35 AM   #10
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Welcome to the modern marketplace where consumers demand cheap goods for the "have it all" generation. Much like the "instant home" trend in housing, goods become cheaper and made cheaper to meet this demand for everyone to fill every room in their house... typically on credit.

Not like our parents generation.
If you don't like our generation then GET OUT
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Old 02-23-2012, 07:05 PM   #11
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Welcome to the modern marketplace where consumers demand cheap goods for the "have it all" generation. Much like the "instant home" trend in housing, goods become cheaper and made cheaper to meet this demand for everyone to fill every room in their house... typically on credit.

Not like our parents generation.

Says the Man with a BMW 7 series... As said earlier, take time to reflect on the toys you have that you really dont need. You might come to the conclusion that you are part of this generation as well.

If you have money and obtained it in morally sound and legal fashion you should have every right to spend it.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:10 AM   #12
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Says the Man with a BMW 7 series... As said earlier, take time to reflect on the toys you have that you really dont need. You might come to the conclusion that you are part of this generation as well.

If you have money and obtained it in morally sound and legal fashion you should have every right to spend it.
Nope, not part of it because the difference is that I pay cash and use my debit card for the toys I want (excluding cars). I'm not some hippie but I'm a realist and don't fall for the buy moar junk from China to keep up... but thanks to complacence you are paying good money (typically on credit) for stuff that costs pennies on the dollar.

And could I get a newer 7-series? Yep but I feel that there is something to be said about the quality of the older gens. Flame away about E38 reliability but I've replaced all the problem-by-design-parts and it has been an absolute tank for the last couple years and should be for many more.

But yeah, my point: people demand everything now on credit and goods supply has come down in price and quality to meet the demand. Nothing wrong with what Apple or anyone else is doing... the market asked for it.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:17 PM   #13
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Nope, not part of it because the difference is that I pay cash and use my debit card for the toys I want (excluding cars). I'm not some hippie but I'm a realist and don't fall for the buy moar junk from China to keep up... but thanks to complacence you are paying good money (typically on credit) for stuff that costs pennies on the dollar.

And could I get a newer 7-series? Yep but I feel that there is something to be said about the quality of the older gens. Flame away about E38 reliability but I've replaced all the problem-by-design-parts and it has been an absolute tank for the last couple years and should be for many more.

But yeah, my point: people demand everything now on credit and goods supply has come down in price and quality to meet the demand. Nothing wrong with what Apple or anyone else is doing... the market asked for it.

You mean you don't want to buy tons and tons of useless shit to show off to your friends and family and to make you feel good about yourself????!!1111
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:21 AM   #14
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You mean you don't want to buy tons and tons of useless shit to show off to your friends and family and to make you feel good about yourself????!!1111
nope. If it ain't broke and still useful , its not getting replaced. I can't understand current trends, replacing a 6 month old phone because the new one is 20% "faster", people have too much buying power, think they are too rich to do BS like that. Worst part is it happens every product release, just look at the ****tards who line up at apple


There are occasions when its ok, like the PS3 launch. The PS2 had been out for quite some time, was dated in the tooth and could not do what the PS3 can , example HD graphics. It had become legitimately obsolete, same thing with xbox to xbox 360.

Apple on the other hand dumps out a new product every 6months to a year, making their old one SEEM obsolete. Who the hell has $800+ to dump every 6 months on a cellphone? I think consumerism sucks.
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:44 PM   #15
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You mean you don't want to buy tons and tons of useless shit to show off to your friends and family and to make you feel good about yourself????!!1111
And if he/anyone does? So What.

Is anyone considered "noble" because they don't buy useless shit? We ALL DO! Some A LOT more than others, but we ALL DO!
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