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Old 01-26-2010, 05:36 PM   #1
davericher20
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how do you "properly" drive an IX?

I was watching an old 1980's episode of "Speed secrets" and it featured the Quattro and how revolutionary it was.

OBVIOUSLY the ix is MORE revolutionary but let's give audi it's dues, it was the first to "figure it out"

Drivers who were amazing at rear wheel "figured out" how to drive the awd system and were suprised how much better handling it had. (remember this is on pavement also)

they said it was left-foot braking to keep the boost up.

I heel-toe in mine and I love it, but I don't see the need to left-foot brake because I don't have a turbo? is this correct?

Would you left foot brake mid turn?

How do you properly drive a Naturally Aspirated IX?

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Old 01-26-2010, 05:46 PM   #2
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Point and shoot.

A lot of the videos I've seen with people testing awd cars the style tends to be more violent with a lack of fineness. Since they have awd they just throw it into the corner and mash it and come out in front of everyone with 2wd car. Most of the cars I'm talking about are turbos however (EVO, sti, gt-r, etc), but I don't think that matters except for the left foot braking trick that you mentioned.
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Old 01-26-2010, 05:49 PM   #3
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I think it's just drive the absolute shit out of it, it takes alot to get it to oversteer and get uncorrectable understeer. I think AWD cars are a lot more forgiving to driver error.

But what do I know?
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Old 01-26-2010, 06:37 PM   #4
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Let's clear a few things up here first. AWD does not handle better, it handles differently. If you want to look at the physics of it (which doesn't always apply on the practical end of the spectrum) the coefficient of grip is less with awd during the turn in of a corner, because you're asking the front wheels to turn the car as well as deccelerate. At or before the apex or transitional point of the turn, awd should be equal to say a rwd car since the car is neither deccelerating nor accelerating, however when you do get on the power, the awd car will behave more like a front wheel drive car and pull the car wide/understeer, where a rwd car will go in the direction pointed.

Where what is said above changes is in a rally scenario, where the drivers are pitching their cars into a turn, to create oversteer upon entry, as mentioned above applying power in awd exiting a turn promotes understeer, so that with a dollup of counter steer corrects the oversteer created by the driver in the first place and they powerslide out. Here's the crutch to all of you who want to try this, to get that oversteer in the first place, the driver approaches the turn a little too quick, then they give the car a left right pitch, or (scandinavian flick) while applying the brake, once the car is sliding, they get on the power, here's the crutch part, you need a decent amount of power to do this on anything other than a slick surface, or you'll be heading towards the weeds before you could say Top Gear.

There are many other factors involved, this is just the tip of the iceburg, with awd/rwd, but ultimately on dry pavement no awd matches its rwd counterpart. It's physically impossible like for like. The only advantage awd has is in the slick stuff accelerating. That's it. Sorry Dave, probably not what you wanted to hear. If we ever get any damn snow, and you could make it to the Winter Autocross we're planning, I'll show you what I mean.

Cheers.
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:48 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dble Trouble View Post
There are many other factors involved, this is just the tip of the iceburg, with awd/rwd, but ultimately on dry pavement no awd matches its rwd counterpart. It's physically impossible like for like. The only advantage awd has is in the slick stuff accelerating. That's it. Sorry Dave, probably not what you wanted to hear. If we ever get any damn snow, and you could make it to the Winter Autocross we're planning, I'll show you what I mean.

Cheers.
I dont know....As you increas the speed, you tend to loose traction, so making things "slick"...and no reason why the AWD wouldnt outperform once again!

I think the videos are better proof of what i'm trying to say! lol
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Old 01-26-2010, 07:36 PM   #6
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^ Well said. You had me at "coefficient".
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:19 AM   #7
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:47 AM   #8
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Thanks John.

I respect that you're a driving instructer and you're taking the time to answer.

I'm still a little confused though.

the rwd car is gonna slide out of the turn also if you mash on it.

here's the videos I watched. Though it focused on the quattros ability to out-drive in slippery/slick conditions it also touched on how it out-drives on dry pavement too.

I'm just unsure about how awd has inferior handling in corners on dry pavement than rwd.
Can't you brake later going in, and accellerate sooner out.....?







Ya Rich, I'd love to! I'm seriously considering it.
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Old 01-27-2010, 01:11 AM   #9
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okay, 1st vid I watched. RWD/AWD/FWD



and I think this made me understand it.......

http://www.timeattackforums.com/foru...ur-take-8.html

It has to have alot of power for it to show it's true benefits?

I just want to know the best way to drive the ix (on dry pavement)
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Old 01-27-2010, 02:30 AM   #10
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I'm always skeptical of people who own iX's who say that they aren't prone to understeer. I drive mine hard. It has an upgraded UUC rear swaybar and disconnected front sways, along with H&R sports, koni's in the back and billsteins in the front. It still understeers very noticably on most 270 degree ramps (For instance the one from 427 to Gardner E if you take the browns line detour) at 70-75.

That's not awful, mind you, but to say that they dont understeer isn't true. In the snow, they dont understeer much, because you have the stability to WOT and correct it.
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:22 AM   #11
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lets look at the highest level of track cars, F1, if awd was better, would they not be awd....

and the last video you posted shows that. There is a few instructors that drive highly modded Subbies and they could be matched up with you to teach you the best lines and brake/acceleration points to get the most outa the AWD.

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Old 01-27-2010, 08:58 PM   #12
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I just took the last half hour to watch all 4 videos you've posted, and while watching the 4th video, the one with the woman comparing the fwd/awd/rwd was my saviour. That is exactly what I've been trying to get at with the various drivetrain configurations. She should be nominated for a Nobel prize or something.

To be honest, the first three videos seemed to be an Audi Quattro infomercial. They were telling you how they were better than everyone else so you go out and by a quattro, but what they were just skimming over was the REAL reason they were faster than the competition on pavement was that their cars were significantly lighter than the competition. The single biggest advantage to handling is weight. The only advantage the quattro gave them was when things got slick. Remember Quattro or awd puts power to all four wheels to get going, that quattro system does not help them slow down (the lighter weight does) and does nothing to make them handle better (the lighter weight does). They were running turbo 5's, and the competition was running V8's.

In the slick stuff like sand, gravel, snow and ice, there's no doubt that awd is the cat's meow, although, I will still not purchase an awd because of this. There are just too few instances when I would take advantage of it and too many instances when it hinders what I would do. It's kind of like the guys that buy pick up trucks for dd, and say oh they're great and so versatile for the two or three times a year they may actually need one. However, they pay the added price for that all year long with fuel, and wear and tear.

Dave, remember Centralia last year???? We could have made that 4th video. Your car would just understeer, and the more beans you put to it the more it would understeer, unlike the rear drivers which could be coaxed to do what ever we wanted.

There are a lot of pointers Dave, just not enough space nor time in a post like this. As we hang out at various events this year, if you want I could talk you through a lot of it. I've instructed with some of the STI/WRX crowd and although they are running a lot more power than you, the same physics behind applies. At Shannonville this June, we're running a WET skidpad in conjunction with the on track and that would be the best place/time to exploit what you're asking. Consider it.
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Old 01-28-2010, 01:15 AM   #13
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I wasn't saying AWD is superior on the pavement, I'm just wondering what the best way to drive it is?
I'll have to take it to the track to find out.

Glad to hear the Quattro vids were a commercial basically lol, it was confusing to me.

Yeah after the vid with the awd/rwd/fwd comparison, that was it for me. I understood.

better than fwd, but not as good as rwd.

Thanks Guys.
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Old 01-28-2010, 12:16 PM   #14
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could it be argued though that with the latest technological enhancements to awd systems found in cars like the audi r8 and nissan gtr that they are superior to rwd systems because they make it a much easier car to drive at the limit?
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Old 01-29-2010, 11:34 PM   #15
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could it be argued though that with the latest technological enhancements to awd systems found in cars like the audi r8 and nissan gtr that they are superior to rwd systems because they make it a much easier car to drive at the limit?
No it can't. I'll try and explain in as little space as possible. These systems ARE vastly more advanced than Quattro from Audi, but still not as good as RWD on dry tarmac.

I'll use the Porsche 911 as an example because they make both a awd and rwd versions. The 911 turbo is awd and vastly powerful, but weighs approx 3500 lbs, the GT3 is non turbo and makes way less hp and torque, is rwd and weighs approx 3100 lbs. (I don't remember exact figures and am too lazy to look them up right now - this is just for example) The GT3 is almost as quick in a drag race, but lap for lap is considerable quicker than a 911 turbo. A test was done at Willow springs in Cali, and the GT3 was a staggering 3.5 seconds a lap quicker than the Turbo.

Why? Weight and drivetrain. The awd in the turbo coupled with the added weight creates a very poor understeer condition, where the GT3 is much more balanced and can carry way more speed through the corner. Yes the Turbo can get on the power a little sooner, but too little too late.

The R8 and GTR do not as of yet have a sibling with rwd only to do back to back comparisons, but these cars would shed somewhere in the vicinity of 300 lbs if they lost the awd systems and would therefore increase the grip through the corners and accelerate quicker from 2nd gear onwards as the power to weight ratio is more favourable, and traction no longer a concern. AWD is good to the layman, who is intimidated by high powered rwd cars, but for REAL performance and or anyone interested in track days/lapping/racing, definitely RWD is the only option.
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