maXbimmer Forums

maXbimmer Forums (http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/index.php)
-   Forced Induction (http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=97)
-   -   E30 M50 turbo (http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88524)

andicanada 04-13-2007 07:40 AM

E30 M50 turbo
 
hello!

Im thinking right now to put a new engine in my car M50 and also do a Turbo my plane right now is to drop the engine M50 b25 in my car with the turbo and drive @7psi with no engine modifications beside megasquert is that ok ????

for the long run i got a stroker set to 3.2l what i want to install and lower the compresion ,

what would be the best to do i dont wanne buy later on after stroking a new turbo and so on i'm looking for something where i can build on

what is is best way to go for me

For sale TCD Turbo manifold new for M20


Bye Andre

PedroBMW 04-14-2007 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andicanada
hello!

Im thinking right now to put a new engine in my car M50 and also do a Turbo my plane right now is to drop the engine M50 b25 in my car with the turbo and drive @7psi with no engine modifications beside megasquert is that ok ????

for the long run i got a stroker set to 3.2l what i want to install and lower the compresion ,

what would be the best to do i dont wanne buy later on after stroking a new turbo and so on i'm looking for something where i can build on

what is is best way to go for me

For sale TCD Turbo manifold new for M20


Bye Andre

Yeah man you can boost 7psi on a stock m50 no prob as long as you tune it right. Are you gonna wire up the megasquirt yourself? Cause its gonna require some modifications from the usual setups to make it work with the coil-over-plug ignition on the m50s.

I don't really understand what the queston is that your asking after that, and I don't really undrstand how your planning to lower the compression by stroking the motor?????:confused:

andicanada 04-14-2007 02:03 PM

hey thanks for the information i was saying i would like to drive the 2.5 M50 for a bit turbo charged now and later when i got all parts together i will put a stroker set in 3.2L but i dont want to buy a new turbo and that stuff then i'm looking for stuff where i can build on and expand with no problem

do you know where i can get more information about M50 turbo
like what kinda Turbo and so on

Thanks andre

PedroBMW 04-14-2007 02:40 PM

go to www.bimmerforums.com and go to the forced induction section and get familiar with the search button. There's a ton of ppl with turboed m50,s50,m52,s52 over there. You should do some more research as well but at least you'll be able to see what other people are running and theres alot of knowledgable dudes over there too.

b_w. 04-19-2007 08:51 PM

what kind of goals do you have?

why do you want to use megasquirt?

MarkD 04-23-2007 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andicanada
hello!

Im thinking right now to put a new engine in my car M50 and also do a Turbo my plane right now is to drop the engine M50 b25 in my car with the turbo and drive @7psi with no engine modifications beside megasquert is that ok ????

for the long run i got a stroker set to 3.2l what i want to install and lower the compresion ,

what would be the best to do i dont wanne buy later on after stroking a new turbo and so on i'm looking for something where i can build on

what is is best way to go for me

For sale TCD Turbo manifold new for M20


Bye Andre


Forget the MegaPiss, tune the DME as it's a much better solution.

PedroBMW 04-23-2007 09:53 PM

Hey Mark, whats the problem with Megasquirt? I'm interested in a pros opinion.

Tuning the DME isnt exactly feasible for the masses either. I for one know I wouldn't have time to spend hours & hours goin threw code tryin to figure it out.

Furious 04-24-2007 04:00 AM

the only problem i see with megasquirt is that you have to really know what your doing with it. for instance on bfc a few guys running it and still just learning all the in's and out's of it. the up side is that it has lots of potential and very affordable.

b_w. 04-24-2007 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PedroBMW
Hey Mark, whats the problem with Megasquirt? I'm interested in a pros opinion.

Tuning the DME isnt exactly feasible for the masses either. I for one know I wouldn't have time to spend hours & hours goin threw code tryin to figure it out.

there are lots of guys that can chip tune the obd1 ecu. sure it is easier to do it in person but a remote tune is possible with lots of dataloggin.

PedroBMW 04-24-2007 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b_w.
there are lots of guys that can chip tune the obd1 ecu. sure it is easier to do it in person but a remote tune is possible with lots of dataloggin.

I was implying for the DIYer, not many people can do the tuning themselves using the stock DME like they do with hondas where theres tons of guys who can do it all over for cheap. Chip tuning costs hundreds of dollars to redo if you need a retune. Either way I am in no way defending one side or the other, I for sure think chip tuning can be a great way to go. I really just wanna here Markd's opinion on megasquirt since he's knocking it and hes prob one of the most knowledgable people on here to comment. I hope he chimes in again, c'mon Markd.

Urinemachine 05-01-2007 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PedroBMW
I was implying for the DIYer, not many people can do the tuning themselves using the stock DME like they do with hondas where theres tons of guys who can do it all over for cheap. Chip tuning costs hundreds of dollars to redo if you need a retune. Either way I am in no way defending one side or the other, I for sure think chip tuning can be a great way to go. I really just wanna here Markd's opinion on megasquirt since he's knocking it and hes prob one of the most knowledgable people on here to comment. I hope he chimes in again, c'mon Markd.

I am a proud user of megasquirt - loving it every day. Running 'er on my m50 turbo.

MarkD 05-01-2007 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PedroBMW
I was implying for the DIYer, not many people can do the tuning themselves using the stock DME like they do with hondas where theres tons of guys who can do it all over for cheap. Chip tuning costs hundreds of dollars to redo if you need a retune. Either way I am in no way defending one side or the other, I for sure think chip tuning can be a great way to go. I really just wanna here Markd's opinion on megasquirt since he's knocking it and hes prob one of the most knowledgable people on here to comment. I hope he chimes in again, c'mon Markd.

I bet that in the end, using the stock ECU is not much more expensive than using MS. It may even be cheaper.

Here is what I don't like about MS:

- in most cases you have to cut into the wiring harness and replace various sensors. Maybe now it's possible to install it with the original harness and connectors but I don't know.

- you have to build extra boards to handle the coils, as Jon K did. I am sure that people don't realise that these hand-built circuits are not as reliable as a production ECU.

- Looking at MS, it does not seem to be designed for high reliability. It's more like a hobbyist ECU. I've been following it since it's inception and some of the early layouts of the PCB and the circuitry was not very good. I feel I can comment on automotive hardware as I've been involved in the design of some electronic modules for cars since 1991 and am aware of proper design practices. People have to realise that there is a difference between "something that seems to work" and a product that is qualified for an automotive environmnent or use. It's just like software, lots of people can whip up code that runs, but it often fails when certain unexpected situations occur.

- An ECU such as the ones running the M50 motors has very sophisticated hardware and software. There are a large number of tables (maps) to handle timing and fuel under all conditions such as warm up, part throttle, etc. How many maps? Over 30 in the typical 402 or 413 ECU. To properly tune a MS will end up being a lot of work, and most people don't have the experience to do it.

The software has all been VALIDATED under many operating conditions and there is pretty much no chance it will fail due to some unforseen operating condition. I can't say the same is true for MS.

- people don't realise how good the ECU's in a BMW actually are. The 4xx series from the M50's are quite powerful, and the next generation as used in the 321 hp Euro M3's and E46 M3's have very powerful CPU's. In Europe, people put twin turbos and MAF's on M20's and M30's with the original ECU's. If you move to an MS from those ECU's it's like going from a P4 to a P1 processor in your PC.


So above I have outlined some of the main reasons I don't have any interest in MS. I'm not saying this because I tune BMW ECU's. It's because I know the ECU's and what they are capable of pretty well. I've been repairing them for almost 20 years now so know what fails and also how well they are designed.
If I was turbocharging a car I'd certainly stay with the original ECU even if I could not tune it myself. It should be cheaper to do so and certainly more reliable.

Jon K has his car running pretty well but I'd be interested to know how much it cost in his time and funds. I'm also pretty sure he has more talent than most people at getting this sort of project going.

I bet that in the future, you may see more people moving away from MS and trying to use the factory ECU's on BMWs. I had told Todd at TCD to stay with the factory hardware about 2 years ago, and he said he was going to use MS. He recently posted elsewhere that he bought a Motronic editor so there must be a reason for that.

static 05-01-2007 10:45 PM

Mark,

i am not in position to argue with you considering the huge delta between our knowledge about these things, so please don't interpret it as me questioning your knowledge/experience.
I have been building megasquirt over the winter and doing quite a bit of research on it, so i'd say i am qualified to bring up some things about it.
You are absolutely correct about MS being more of a hobby ECU as opposed to heavy duty piece of hardware. But i read posts/reports from the designers themselves (Al and Bruce) that one of the most important considerations for their designs is standard automotive quality prerequisites (like for instance apropriate range of operation temps or measured ability to withstand shock, etc..).
MS2 processor is also much faster than original MS1. And all the firmware on MS2 is written in C and thus much easier to customize than platform specific assembly. And MS3 will be even faster. There are many advanced things they are considering for the next design, for instance having enough processing power to be able to do ion sensing.

The beauty and appeal of the MS to crouds of DIYers is the fact that it is highly customizable and "open" platform, both hardware and software-wise. And the MS community is one of the most knowledgeble and supportive i have seen (also very mature).

I am the kind of person who likes to tinker with stuff. Right now i am in the middle of finishing the software for PDA (running linux on it) which reads all realtime data from MS and displays it through my own custom interface in realtime (here is a video btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWcl65SDX5o).
I don't see an easy way of doing something like this on stock, providing that everything about it is *closed*.
The recent multitude of free software that was tested by the large community allows easy tuning "on the road" with a wideband, software analyses datalogs, calculates hp/tq curves and adjusts tables automatically or under operators guidance (alternative for expensive dyno time).
Not sure when was the last time you looked at megasquirt progress, but there are also many advanced features like warmup enrichments, accel enrichments, etc. Many report with some work they were able to tune their cars to run better than the stock ever did.
Hope you are aware that the popular VEMS in europe is a commercial spinoff of MS.

But you are absolutely right about DME being the cheapest solution for a person who doesn't wanna delve into these kinds of details and just have a reliable car while not worrying about stuff blowing up.

I am sure things like MS will never eat in into the stock ECU's "market share" as they are different things for different people. Just like windows and linux. The beauty of both platforms are in the eyes of their beholders.

PedroBMW 05-02-2007 03:33 AM

Thanks Mark for the input,

that all being said, do you do custom tunes on obd1?obd2? using the euro hfm etc.?

MarkD 05-04-2007 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PedroBMW
Thanks Mark for the input,

that all being said, do you do custom tunes on obd1?obd2? using the euro hfm etc.?

I can do all of the above.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:23 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Maxbimmer Copyright 2001 - 2014