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EMPOWERD 04-21-2002 12:14 AM

Re: Back from Mosport !
 
Quote:

Originally posted by ROB89M3
On the double apex section, I almost lost it!!! (lack of concentration) This was my only mistake out of the whole day.
:)

We watched you go to the outside of turn two and thought you were dead!.... You even kicked up dirt from going off momentarily. You did awsome at the Autocross Rob, probably the best of your run group..... didn't have to give you a single pointer. You should come to the Autocross event on the 28th of April. The worst thing you can do is loose concentration... especially going 150km/h around an off-camber double apex turn! Things like that are remembered by the instructor and really frowned upon... they want to see consistancy more than anything.

KIRASIR 04-21-2002 12:21 AM

Good job! Glad you had fun.

So who is coming to the auto-x on 28th?

SL

330DTM 04-21-2002 01:28 AM

Rob89M3,

Great to hear you had fun! Too bad I couldn't make it :P

Anyways, where will this Autocross April 28th event take place? Exact location?

KIRASIR 04-21-2002 03:58 AM

http://www.bmwclub.ca/trillium.htm

at the bottom of the page

SL

Quote:

Originally posted by 328DTM
Rob89M3,

Great to hear you had fun! Too bad I couldn't make it :P

Anyways, where will this Autocross April 28th event take place? Exact location?


'88 325e 04-21-2002 01:27 PM

Rob
 
I would say that you did an excellent job on the skid track. I wish I had more time to see you go on the track. Well I posted pics from Saturday in the Events section and good luck Sunday man!

L8R,
Dave

got torque? 04-22-2002 10:10 AM

mustangs vs. M3's
 
Rob

You may find that your car will outperform a Mustang on an autocross course, but on the track I can promise you that you will have your ass handed to you every time. I don't care how much money you throw at your car.

You have 2.5 litres, a Mustang has 5.0 litres. Mosport has a straightaway that is a mile long- you do the math.

I watched several bone-stock Mustangs crush E46 M3's at Mosport this weekend.

You're new at this, and telling people that you only made one mistake all weekend is a joke. Everyone makes mistakes, every time out. Over time, you'll see what I mean.

BTW, your car looks great. Now get some seat time.

GR8 Ride 04-22-2002 10:21 AM

Well, I'll defend Rob a little on this one.

My little *2.5 litre* motor ate up several Mustangs on the weekend; the only one I have some trouble with was Mike's, and his car is both well set up, and extremely well driven.

In the 1/2 hour though, there wasn't enough time to catch Mike, though I was lapping faster than he was. I could sure use some of that torque coming out of turn 5C though...

Jordan's car (if not for the rotor issue), was the quickest Mustang on the track, and pretty close to the quickest car (Bob's E36 and John's E30 M3 might be a little quicker, unfortunately there was little opportunity to find out).

The Mustang's, however, are a lot cheaper to build into a fast track car than the BMW's....sigh...

Pat

got torque? 04-22-2002 10:52 AM

Pat

From what I can see, your car is more than a little different that Rob's, so it is a bit of an exception.

I was just trying to get him to avoid making assumptions. Appearances can be VERY deceiving, especially at the track.

Dismissing a car because it cannot turn well on a skidpad autocross is very narrow-minded.

Every car has its forte- an F1 car might not do well on an autocross course- does that mean it's a bad car?

Playing Devil's advocate is fun- Rob makes it very easy....

GR8 Ride 04-22-2002 11:42 AM

Yes, that's true. I'll say one thing for the Mustang guys; they certainly take a difficult car to drive on the track, and make it perform well. Some bizarre (by BMW standards) suspension setups are required to handle that thing. 1000 lb springs in the front, 280 lbs in the rear. Almost opposite from what I'm doing...

Now, onto the important part of the equation, and that's the driver. A *good* driver can make ANY car fast; just look at Peter in his Hyundai at the track....

Rob did *ok* for his first time out, and it's good that he came. Plenty of guys buy very fast cars, and NEVER take an advanced driving school...at least he's done that much.


A couple of words of advice Rob....


One, your car is too stiffly sprung at the moment. You don't have the tires or the skills to handle it, and it's getting you into trouble. On Sunday, the *red mist* got ahold of you in the last session, and fishtailing all the way down corner 2 is a dangerous thing to do. Always, always, always listen to what your instructor is telling you... Your car was VERY close to being a write-off; good luck and good instruction prevented you from being towed home on a flatbed.

Two, you NEED to get the notion of *racing* out of your head. You'll never learn anything while you're attempting to keep up with the guy in front of you, or while trying to lose the guy behind you. You've been to one driving school; you're a C class student, and will be so for a few more driving schools. Relax a little; nobody goes from C to A in only a few schools. Use the opportunity to learn as much as you can. So what if somebody passes you? Maybe he's a C student who's on his 4th or 5th school, and should be a B student instead. It's not a race, there is no trophy at the end of it. This is what got you into trouble in the example above.

Three, lose the ego. Yes, you're young, and have a great car. However, you'll NEVER be fast on the race track with an ego preventing you from learning HOW to be fast. Remember, I started where you are now, three years ago (with the BMW Club anyway). I was slow, I hated to let people pass me, but until you realize that there are faster cars and faster drivers, and learn to forget about them, then you'll never be fast.

Always remember to not only listen to your instructor, but to pay attention to him. This includes Rolf and the other guys running the exercises. At the exercises is where you learn car control at safe speeds; that learning directly applies to what you're doing at the track.


Rob, what you're going through is the same thing everybody else is going through. You weren't as good as you *thought* you were going into the school, and could be a little discouraged by it. Your next school, you'll see the progress you'll be making, and by your third school, you'll be hooked.

Trust me, keep attending as many driving schools as you can; and particularly go to some of the Raven days at TMSP (Cayuga). Get enough schools under your belt, and you'll soon be fast, and running in the B group and eventually the A group.

Save your *mod* money for schools, and once you're an A student, then start spending some money to improve the performance of your car. One thing happens to students who spend endless amounts of money as a C or B student to improve their car; they end up with very fast cars with very poor skills to handle that car. Inevitably, they have an *off*. Unfortunately, because the car is so fast, and the driver unskilled, the *off* tends to be ugly, expensive, and potentially harmful. This past weekend, you nearly had 2 *offs* in arguably the most notorious corner in North America, and that's only as a C student.

Relax, even on the track, you need to slow down to learn something...


Pat

M3ntal Kev 04-22-2002 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by got torque?
Pat

From what I can see, your car is more than a little different that Rob's, so it is a bit of an exception.

I was just trying to get him to avoid making assumptions. Appearances can be VERY deceiving, especially at the track.

Dismissing a car because it cannot turn well on a skidpad autocross is very narrow-minded.

Every car has its forte- an F1 car might not do well on an autocross course- does that mean it's a bad car?

Playing Devil's advocate is fun- Rob makes it very easy....

Actually, I don't think that our e30 M3s do very well on Rolf's autocrosses at all. Generally our cars seem, to me anyway, to be suited to a faster more open circuit. I am always fighting the power steering pump/system during autocrosses as well as fumbling with 1st gear which is too short and 2nd which is too tall.

But it was a good weekend; a little cold but good.

M3ntal Kev 04-22-2002 12:11 PM

Pat,
You make some pretty awesome points. You really have to clear your mind and leave your ego at home.

got torque? 04-22-2002 12:21 PM

Yeah, what he said.
 
I hope you don't take any of this stuff personally, Rob. If people didn't want to see you get better, they'd just ignore you.

You are fortunate that you have a few experienced people to give you some good free advice. Soak it up.

You'll get fast with more schools and seat time. You have a great car to work with, you just need to keep the big picture in mind. Leave your ego and prejudices at the track gate, and try to learn as much as possible. You'll get there....

EMPOWERD 04-22-2002 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ROB89M3
,so did those pilons! Without those pilons,I would have been in the wall for sure!


Tsk, Tsk, Tsk....

Rob, try not to rely on those turn-in/brake point/apex pylons. That's the worst you can do! There are no pylons in real driving situations and a lot of instructors frown upon the use of them due to students becoming too reliant on their placement. They usually take them away by Sunday afternoon. I guess it's a good idea for new students, just don't rely on them too much.

Pat....

Nicely said!

got torque? 04-22-2002 01:23 PM

Rob

People here are always telling you to listen first and become educated on a given topic before you speak, and you continually spout BS at every opportunity.

First off, going quickly on the track, while listening to an instructor and concentrating on your line, are all things that a skilled driver can do. You are not skilled enough yet to do it all at once, so you nearly drove off the track- plain and simple.

Your ego is preventing you from admitting that you made a mistake- a common problem with beginners. You drove beyond your skill level, and you found out what happens. Hopefully you don't do it again (in Turn 2 anyway).

Now, perhaps you could explain just how the weight of a Mustang's engine affects it's autocross performance? Thanks.

GR8 Ride 04-22-2002 01:47 PM

Well, it's doubtful you're taking corner 2 at 160 Kph, but it IS a very fast corner.

Relax Rob, we're not doing this to bash you; we're doing this because some of us have been doing this for a few years now, and we're trying to (A) help you learn how to drive better and (B) help prevent you from having a major incident in the future.

Your second *incident* at Corner 2 wasn't lack of concentration, it was more the *red mist* kicking in; you failed to brake for 2, and had to plant the rear end with the throttle to snake your car around the corner. If I were you, I'd be buying Ray a case of beer for saving your car and very nearly your life. If he wasn't in the car with you, you would likely have hit the brakes, and we'd be sending in the flatbed and ambulance after you. The instructors and I had a LONG discussion about it Sunday night as we were packing up trailers...

You'll get there eventually, provided that you stick to it, and attend as many schools as you can. The worst case scenario would be if you attended this one school only, and thought you had nothing more to learn. You've only made a minor *bump* on the learning curve of high speed driving. There are people on this board who could take your car, and run laps around you with it. Randy, Kev, Bruno and quite possibly a few others...

Absolutely, I learn something new EVERY day I'm at the track; I learned several things about myself as a driver, my car (and how it handles....which is bloody AWESOME), and my own personal limits with the car.

Don't worry Rob, this is meant to support you; we prefer to see young students come to driving schools and learn how to drive extremely well, and responsibly, rather than *learning* at lousy, no helmet open lapping sessions, or by rocketing down the 407 at 200 Kph. Just stick with the driving schools, and you'll be an excellent driver one day.

Pat


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