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-   -   E36 owners: Ever consider installing the M50 manifold without a tune? (http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152964)

Nolimit77 09-03-2012 05:16 PM

E36 owners: Ever consider installing the M50 manifold without a tune?
 
Now, ideally the M50 manifold should be installed along with a tune but for those who do not have the extra $350+ this may not be possible. After doing my research I noticed allot of people asking if it was worth doing so and it was a question I had wondered about ever since I got the manifold. Well, what better way to test this than at the track. What track? Mosport! *rockout*

This past weekend was OTA event 7 & 8 so I thought I would do a true back to back test with the stock maifold and M50 manifold without a tune. Thankfully the weather was absolutely beautiful and both days had near identical nconditions within a degree and a couple % points. This was the most ideal testing.

Car:1996 328i
Class: GT2(Mosport class record 1:37.9)
Engine mods: K&N CAI, A/C delete, Fan delete
Suspension mods:Too many to list, PM if you want to know
Tires/Wheels: Kosei K1 17X8.5 with 245/40/17 Hankook RS-3 Tires

On Saturday, I was able to manage a 1:39.1(besting my PB by 2.1 seconds) and I felt that I had left nothing on the table in terms of time. After completing the first day, and since I was camping over, I decided to swap to the M50 manifold so I could do Sunday's event with it. After it was installed, I drove the car around the area to allow the ECU time adjust to the increased volume of air. It ran fine but I knew the real test would come tomorrow.

After waking up, I made sure to fill the car up to the same level as I had the previous day just to make sure things were as equal as possible. My only concern about changing the manifold was how much effect would the toque loss have on my exit out of 5B(3rd gear). Even with the stock manifold, the car would only come out of 5B at around 3500RPM. Any torque loss would make the car lug even more and unfortauntely 2nd gear is too short to utilize. During my first run, I immediately noticed speeds were higher through 2-3, 4-5a and 5b-8 and that the torque loss had not been as bad as I had thought it would be. As the morning went on they crept up a little higher as the computer was continuing to adjust to the new manifold. At the end of the day, I am happy to report that my new PB fell to a 1:38.5. I could not be any happier with the result! Again, I felt I had left nothing on the track so I can say without a doubt, the manifold swap resulted in a .6 second improvement over one lap at Mosport.

Below are the times/speeds from Saturday/Sunday:

Saturday with stock M52 manifold- 1:39.1 *Turns 5B-8, 184km/h*
Sunday with M50 manifold and NO tune- 1:38.5 *Turns 5B-8, 192 km/h*

Hope this helps those who have been waiting to install their M50 Manifolds. *wiggle*

cormier 09-03-2012 05:32 PM

Wow, interesting data! Good to hear, I wouldn't have expected such a gain as the swap is usually downplayed quite a bit

Trekz 09-03-2012 11:17 PM

I have 2 m50 manifolds for sale $100 a pop!

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2

T.Dot_E30 09-04-2012 08:49 AM

Those sound like great times *th-up*

Gleb 09-04-2012 04:09 PM

OP, realistically speaking, the only thing you kind of proved, is that at 7/10 the M50 manifold is not much different from a M52 one.

Nolimit77 09-04-2012 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gleb (Post 1580917)
OP, realistically speaking, the only thing you kind of proved, is that at 7/10 the M50 manifold is not much different from a M52 one.

What did you expect from a manifold swap without a tune? I think .6 seconds is worth the $150 investment. There isn't many things you can do to the car to gain that time with that kind of money. Actually, the only other thing would be an alignment. Let me go further...

OTA class rules use "PIPS" for each part changed or modified, some are worth 1 and some are worth as much as 12. There is a 5 PIP separation between each class with an expected 1 second difference in lap times. For example, if the fastest GT1 car is expected to do 1:25, then GT2 would have to do 1:26 to get maximum points(pax). This means that each PIP that you use, must at the very least gain you .2 seconds. In my case, the manifold swap cost me 1 PIP and gained me .6 seconds. So for me, it makes allot of sense!


I guess what it really comes down to is, is it worth it to you? The information I posted was intended to help people make the decision. Before this event, I did ALLOT of research and no one could provide real data so I took upon myself to change that. Was the test perfect? No, but it was really damn close. Take it for what it is. *rockout*

Gleb 09-04-2012 07:49 PM

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start anything...
Just WAY too many variables.
Without back to back dyno testing and data, all you did is went .6 of a second faster on Sunday than Saturday.

Nolimit77 09-04-2012 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gleb (Post 1580946)
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start anything...
Just WAY too many variables.
Without back to back dyno testing and data, all you did is went .6 of a second faster on Sunday than Saturday.

:idea:

Your right, it was all a coincidence.

Gleb 09-04-2012 09:13 PM

A coincidence (often stated as a mere coincidence) is a collection of two or more events or conditions, closely related by time, space, form, or other associations which appear unlikely to bear a relationship as either cause to effect or effects of a shared cause, within the observer's or observers' understanding of what cause can produce what effects.

... so yeah.

Nolimit77 09-04-2012 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gleb (Post 1580957)
A coincidence (often stated as a mere coincidence) is a collection of two or more events or conditions, closely related by time, space, form, or other associations which appear unlikely to bear a relationship as either cause to effect or effects of a shared cause, within the observer's or observers' understanding of what cause can produce what effects.

... so yeah.

Again, you are right. On behalf of BMW motorsports enthusiasts, thank you for your contribution to this thread.

If you feel there is any need to continue this useless spat, you are more than welcome to PM me.

Nolimit77 09-04-2012 10:03 PM

re
 
Here is a vdeo from Sunday's event at Mosport.

http://youtu.be/sCPrRenNO3A

BigD 09-04-2012 10:40 PM

There's no need to debate or tune anything. The M50 manifold has larger runners and makes more power, period. It's been shown an endless number of times on dynos, even for those who can't clearly see the difference in flow (it's hardly subtle). More importantly, it doesn't fall off at the top end like the M52 manifold. And the difference isn't outside of the range of the system to require any tuning. More flow simply means you need enough fuel to match the extra air. If the DME couldn't keep up, you'd see injector duty cycle codes. Don't waste your money on tuning and enjoy the extra power.

doogee 09-05-2012 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nolimit77 (Post 1580959)
Again, you are right. On behalf of BMW motorsports enthusiasts, thank you for your contribution to this thread.

If you feel there is any need to continue this useless spat, you are more than welcome to PM me.

To be fair, Gleb is correct. Track conditions can change quite a bit in just one day.

But I'm definitely a firm believer in the M50 manifold. Not so friendly for road cars, but it will definitely drop laptimes at the track. It changes the top end massively.

Nolimit77 09-05-2012 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doogee (Post 1580993)
To be fair, Gleb is correct. Track conditions can change quite a bit in just one day.

But I'm definitely a firm believer in the M50 manifold. Not so friendly for road cars, but it will definitely drop laptimes at the track. It changes the top end massively.

Of course he is right but thats not what happened. I may not be the smartest person in the world but I understand exactly how track conditions can change and ultimately effect results. If you can somehow look up weather conditions from this past weekend, you will see that Air-temp/Humidity was nearly identical for both days. Track temps were within two degrees(thank you mastercraft temp gun). If I felt that the results were due to cooler conditions I would not have posted this as the last thing I wanted to do is mislead people.

T.Dot_E30 09-05-2012 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigD (Post 1580967)
Don't waste your money on tuning and enjoy the extra power.

While I agree that there won't be a huge improvement and it isn't the best hp/$, I dont think it's a complete waste.

TRM seems to have made an OBDII tune for the m50 manifold with noticable gains.

This quote taken from bf.c, m50 manifold, before and after TRM tune.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PHARMDVIPER (Post 24747884)



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