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-   -   Why GT-R is so fast - the answer is here. (http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121821)

AMG_POWER 06-21-2009 10:28 PM

Why GT-R is so fast - the answer is here.
 
http://www.gtrcenter.net/?p=2673 4 pages


What do you think?

5thseries 06-21-2009 10:42 PM

Frg.. to lazy. can you just tell us? lol

344i 06-21-2009 10:46 PM

I do not disagree with the article, but the styling does nothing for me.

BigD 06-21-2009 11:13 PM

It's bullshit. I don't know what ATTESA is or whatever the hell they call it, but it's not a CVT transmission so it needs to go through the revs just like everyone else. And even if the GTR is magically always developing it's earth shattering 400 ft lbs of torque, if the ZR1 is kept in the power band... or um, anywhere over say 3000 rpm, it will be developing a shit load more than 400 ft lbs.

It weighs way more, has way less traction, way weaker brakes and less peak power and peak torque than the ZR1 has at 3000 rpm. He harps on about physics, well I bet I'm better educated in the subject than the author and I'm calling flat out ****ing bullshit. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I can calmly raise the BS flag and say that the cars that do demo laps are tweaked. Hell, they already dyno at 420 awhp, which by any stretch of the drivetrain loss estimate, is well over 500hp, but how hard is it, for a car so geeked out with electronics, to have an absolutely trivial way to jack up the boost for 700+hp? Hell they could do it with a guy sitting in the pit with a laptop over RF.

Here's a ZR1 dyno plot btw. Unless the demo laps done in the ZR1 are done with the engine at idle to like 1500rpm, it develops more power and torque than the GTR possibly can period... or is supposed to anyway. Combine that with massive disadvantage in every other category except perhaps an extra 2wd, and you need God to miracle that shit around the track faster.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2037/zr1dyno.jpg

AMG_POWER 06-21-2009 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigD (Post 1316912)
It's bullshit. I don't know what ATTESA is or whatever the hell they call it, but it's not a CVT transmission so it needs to go through the revs just like everyone else. And even if the GTR is magically always developing it's earth shattering 400 ft lbs of torque, if the ZR1 is kept in the power band... or um, anywhere over say 3000 rpm, it will be developing a shit load more than 400 ft lbs.

It weighs way more, has way less traction, way weaker brakes and less peak power and peak torque than the ZR1 has at 3000 rpm. He harps on about physics, well I bet I'm better educated in the subject than the author and I'm calling flat out ****ing bullshit. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I can calmly raise the BS flag and say that the cars that do demo laps are tweaked. Hell, they already dyno at 420 awhp, which by any stretch of the drivetrain loss estimate, is well over 500hp, but how hard is it, for a car so geeked out with electronics, to have an absolutely trivial way to jack up the boost for 700+hp? Hell they could do it with a guy sitting in the pit with a laptop over RF.

Here's a ZR1 dyno plot btw. Unless the demo laps done in the ZR1 are done with the engine at idle to like 1500rpm, it develops more power and torque than the GTR possibly can period... or is supposed to anyway. Combine that with massive disadvantage in every other category except perhaps an extra 2wd, and you need God to miracle that shit around the track faster.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2037/zr1dyno.jpg

ATTESSA is the smartest AWD systems in the world its like Chuck Norris, and there's no CVT tranny its a th ebest in the world DSG.

King Luis 06-22-2009 09:01 AM

so basically (if i got this right) that guy is saying that the gtr is the best. right?


even though he thinks that, theres no way i'd buy an ugly car. and there's no way a heavier, less powerful car is faster than a lighter and more powerful car. rwd, awd, ya theres a difference but come on. its like saying a rally car is faster than a gt car (think leman vette)

Fel 06-22-2009 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigD (Post 1316912)
It's bullshit. I don't know what ATTESA is or whatever the hell they call it, but it's not a CVT transmission so it needs to go through the revs just like everyone else. And even if the GTR is magically always developing it's earth shattering 400 ft lbs of torque, if the ZR1 is kept in the power band... or um, anywhere over say 3000 rpm, it will be developing a shit load more than 400 ft lbs.

It weighs way more, has way less traction, way weaker brakes and less peak power and peak torque than the ZR1 has at 3000 rpm. He harps on about physics, well I bet I'm better educated in the subject than the author and I'm calling flat out ****ing bullshit. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I can calmly raise the BS flag and say that the cars that do demo laps are tweaked. Hell, they already dyno at 420 awhp, which by any stretch of the drivetrain loss estimate, is well over 500hp, but how hard is it, for a car so geeked out with electronics, to have an absolutely trivial way to jack up the boost for 700+hp? Hell they could do it with a guy sitting in the pit with a laptop over RF.

Here's a ZR1 dyno plot btw. Unless the demo laps done in the ZR1 are done with the engine at idle to like 1500rpm, it develops more power and torque than the GTR possibly can period... or is supposed to anyway. Combine that with massive disadvantage in every other category except perhaps an extra 2wd, and you need God to miracle that shit around the track faster.

You might be misinterpreting the article, but I'm not sure...

I think what he's saying is that the GT-R is able to actually use the power much more often than the ZR1 (for example), making it faster around the track. The theory is that a GT-R can go WOT around a corner where a ZR1 can not. The ZR1 may have more power, but it can't use that power in the same way. A dyno graph isn't going to prove anything... that's a completely controlled environment and doens't take into account handling.

So where with a normal supercar like the ZR1 you have to let off into a corner, make the turn, and then gradually add throttle as you come out the exit... a GT-R can handle itself if you dip into the power much sooner, and it will push through the turn, not try to hold onto it.

BigD 06-22-2009 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fel (Post 1316984)
You might be misinterpreting the article, but I'm not sure...

I think what he's saying is that the GT-R is able to actually use the power much more often than the ZR1 (for example), making it faster around the track. The theory is that a GT-R can go WOT around a corner where a ZR1 can not. The ZR1 may have more power, but it can't use that power in the same way. A dyno graph isn't going to prove anything... that's a completely controlled environment and doens't take into account handling.

So where with a normal supercar like the ZR1 you have to let off into a corner, make the turn, and then gradually add throttle as you come out the exit... a GT-R can handle itself if you dip into the power much sooner, and it will push through the turn, not try to hold onto it.

Oh so in the GTR you keep it floored turning into a corner? Don't be silly. The dyno graph proves everything you need. He claims that the secret to the GTR's performance is not cheating but that the ZR1 is not at max power as often as the GTR. Well the dyno graph shows that even when the ZR1 is not at the max, it develops MORE torque (which he emphasizes specifically) than the GTR does at the max (again, using their claimed power figures). Add to that better brakes, less weight to decelerate, accelerate and hold in a turn, more tire to generate those forces and you get a big steamy pile of BS.

Blades 06-22-2009 10:55 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/topgear/show/powerlaps.shtml

top gear list of power laps

europrince 06-22-2009 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blades (Post 1317007)

The ZR1 gets owned ;)

Quack 06-22-2009 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by europrince (Post 1317018)
The ZR1 gets owned ;)

how did it get owned? it's not even on the list

344i 06-22-2009 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by europrince (Post 1317018)
The ZR1 gets owned ;)

sense, none made here.

AMG_POWER 06-22-2009 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigD (Post 1316990)
Oh so in the GTR you keep it floored turning into a corner? Don't be silly. The dyno graph proves everything you need. He claims that the secret to the GTR's performance is not cheating but that the ZR1 is not at max power as often as the GTR. Well the dyno graph shows that even when the ZR1 is not at the max, it develops MORE torque (which he emphasizes specifically) than the GTR does at the max (again, using their claimed power figures). Add to that better brakes, less weight to decelerate, accelerate and hold in a turn, more tire to generate those forces and you get a big steamy pile of BS.

Zr1 has more torque but if you cant use it out of the corner its useless where GTR you can mash a gas pedal mid corner and smart awd will apply the power down for you.

And for those who couldn't explain why the CCX was slower than weaker competitors on the 'Ring, Basseng (and Maserati) made it clear. In summary: even though the CCX had 900 hp, it couldn't deploy it effectively on anywhere but the straight. On Doettinger Hoehe, it was 8.4 mph (13.5 kph) faster than the Zonda, yet its lap time was nearly 9 seconds slower; the Zonda doesn't "hang with" the CCX on a straight, yet it laps almost 9 seconds faster. It doesn't have to "hang with" the CCX on the straight.
The CCX's chassis and aero package weren't developed well enough, so the net result was that any extra power it had over competitors was effectively squandered. Useable power is much more relevant to circuit times than headline "peak" power figures. And thus the car with the lowest power/wt (MC12) in that group was able to set the fastest time.

AMG_POWER 06-22-2009 11:37 AM

Ask any pro drivers or engineer and they'll tell you that it's the balance of the car that equates to a fast car on the track and that no individual strength of the car overpowers the other strengths. They all work in harmony complementing each other as a whole package.

Like in sports, a team of champions is never as good as a champion team.

If you think about it, the best sports superstars are the ones who are complete and are well 'balanced'. Michael Jordan was never the best at one particular aspect of basketball, but he was very good at all of them - making him 'balanced'
Federer likewise, does not have the fastest serve, best forehand, best volley etc - but he is very good at all of those. Put all of those traits together in one package and you get the best 'balanced' and arguably the best tennis player ever.

And whoever says its UGLY go see it in person, I think its one of the most beutifull cars out there.

AMG_POWER 06-22-2009 12:00 PM

and remember when first they did 7:38 and everyone was saying its wasnt possible, later sports auto only run 7:50ish, well now sports auto did 7:38 .

article in German here
http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=31428

I never questioned that car after watching a documentary. It is a legend, so much innovation went into that car, now did they run 7:26? I firmly belive so. is it possible they cheat by providing more boost? Sure it might've but it would still take hell of a car dynamic to go that fast.

People are just in denial.


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