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-   -   m30 or m50 swap for e30 (http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132455)

Another BM 04-25-2010 12:39 PM

m30 or m50 swap for e30
 
So i just picked up a 87 325e.

and of course i'm gonna put some new life into her.

But i wanna plan out a route and stick to it.
One of my major decisions is what motor to go with.

I want it to have as much power as possible without going FI.
Should i go with the more powerfull engine m30, or the newer
m50.


What bolt ons can i do to each motor

King Luis 04-25-2010 01:02 PM

if your not going with the s50/s52 motor, i say go for the rebuilt m30.

Another BM 04-25-2010 03:48 PM

well the s5x line motors carry a nice price tag..

The m30 is a great tq motor.

the m50 is newer and better to upgrade.

njansenv 04-25-2010 06:07 PM

M50 if you put a lot of miles on: only because fuel mileage is significantly better.
The M30 will be quicker.


I have an M30 drivetrain available.... :)

richie_s999 04-27-2010 08:12 AM

Alpina actually offered and build an E30 with the M30, gonna see if this link works for you....

http://www.alpina-archive.com/?page_...&nmt=3-series-[E30]

this link should bring you to a sight where you can see both the B6 2.8 and the B6 3.5 cars to get some ideas of what the cars did with a NA motor.

Another BM 04-29-2010 11:44 PM

decided none of those motors were not going to get me anywhere near the power i wanted to make...

So its gonna get a turbo.. hoping for 300whp :D

soo whos got parts laying around.

First think i need is the top end of a i motor.. who has one?

black bnr32 04-30-2010 09:14 PM

300whp? selling yourself short dude! 400 is incredibly easy and proven on a stock m/s5/2.

Another BM 04-30-2010 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by black bnr32 (Post 1415621)
300whp? selling yourself short dude! 400 is incredibly easy and proven on a stock m/s5/2.

i've also read the same thing, but i wanna keep things "simple" and not have to motor swap.

gonna build up the m20

NOTORIOUS VR 04-30-2010 09:20 PM

^^^ glad you decided to go that way. Just remember that if you just swap to an "I" head (885 casting) with the E bottom end the compression will be pretty low, so matching a turbo will be ever so more important.

That said, it's been done many times and if you want to go that way do it! Just don't bother with chips and RRFPR's. Go standalone or if your willing talk to MarkD on here and get a tune the proper way and never look back.

Also check out e30tech.com.

Good luck!

SamE30e 04-30-2010 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by black bnr32 (Post 1415621)
300whp? selling yourself short dude! 400 is incredibly easy and proven on a stock m/s5/2.

300hp is a realisitic reliable number on a M5x engine.

black bnr32 04-30-2010 09:31 PM

So is 500(with a .140 MLS of course).

OP: cool choice on the M20

NOTORIOUS VR 04-30-2010 09:34 PM

it basically comes down to being more cost effective using the M20 for the HP goals the OP has in mind.

And believe me anywhere between 300-400whp in an E30 is A LOT of fun.

SamE30e 04-30-2010 09:45 PM

Anywhere over 400hp is just retarded. Spin, shift, spin, shift, mis-shift, spin, spin, spin, spin 220, traction.

NOTORIOUS VR 04-30-2010 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamE30e (Post 1415636)
Anywhere over 400hp is just retarded. Spin, shift, spin, shift, mis-shift, spin, spin, spin, spin 220, traction.

Nawwww, come one now!

My friend and I are planning on taking his E30 with a stock M20 to 500whp over the summer :) If we made a stock 2.5L make 400+whp, the 2.7L (SETA) will make 500whp (or at least close to it).

Stay tuned! :P

richie_s999 04-30-2010 10:04 PM

HP blah blah blah. build a motor with a torque line and then talk about fun. Sooooooo tired of HP numbers big bragged about I want to see the numbers that make the car move!!!!!

NOTORIOUS VR 04-30-2010 10:16 PM

^^^ If you think my friends 400whp turbo M20 E30 doesn't move, doesn't have TQ, or has any sort of problem accelerating out of boost you would be mistaken.

Boost makes everything better.

black bnr32 04-30-2010 10:30 PM

Guys that haven't done it will always knock it.

Boost makes everything better.

richie_s999 04-30-2010 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR (Post 1415654)
^^^ If you think my friends 400whp turbo M20 E30 doesn't move, doesn't have TQ, or has any sort of problem accelerating out of boost you would be mistaken.

Boost makes everything better.

first I didn't say his car wasn't fun or fast

Second didn't say his did not have torque

now with that out of the way once your motors torque line drops sharply any hp after is really kinda pointless. The car stops "pulling" and you change gears to get the torque back and keep the car moving faster.

You cam have all the hp you want, but unless you got the 3T's to work with it's nothing but dyno bragging

and please boost does not make everything better

black bnr32 04-30-2010 10:42 PM

Don't be a wiener. Look at this M30 dyno posted just today on bimmerforums:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...3&postcount=79

Where's the torque drop off?

NOTORIOUS VR 04-30-2010 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie_s999 (Post 1415661)
now with that out of the way once your motors torque line drops sharply any hp after is really kinda pointless. The car stops "pulling" and you change gears to get the torque back and keep the car moving faster.

LOL... who told you that a car stops pulling as the TQ drops off?

And you do realize that a boosted motor will make MORE TQ and for longer then the same NA motor ever would right?

You cannot compare a boosted motors output to a NA cars output. The boosted car will almost always win in every category of acceleration.

richie_s999 04-30-2010 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by black bnr32 (Post 1415666)
Don't be a wiener. Look at this M30 dyno posted just today on bimmerforums:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...3&postcount=79

Where's the torque drop off?


Come on name calling?

That's a decent chart. The m30 is a torque beast!! And your talking about a
motor built by Miller.

Is it boosted? Turbo or SC

Even your running a SC. I'm sure you made that choice for a
reason which is probley better torque gains over the whole rpm range

I'm not knocking boost. It's great just hp is not end all of a cars performance

you need torque, traction, and the right teeth on your gears to take full advantage of any power gained by boost

as for tuning ask Mark D what he tunes for. High end hp or mid range torque?

Let's not get into a NA against boost argument but let's talk about getting the power to the ground !!!!

NOTORIOUS VR 04-30-2010 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie_s999 (Post 1415673)
as for tuning ask Mark D what he tunes for. High end hp or mid range torque?

What the heck are you talking about. MarkD will tune just like any other tuner does.. for what the motor needs.

The amount of TQ/HP all depends on your setup of head(s)/cam(s)/turbo/manifold(s)/exhaust, etc.

So yes, I invite you to ask MarkD what he tunes for. Because in the end the motor will dictate the amount of advance and fuel it will require and that will give you your power. Where and how the power is made in the RPM range and for how long is done by properly choosing your components and what you want to achieve.

richie_s999 04-30-2010 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR (Post 1415671)
LOL... who told you that a car stops pulling as the TQ drops off?

And you do realize that a boosted motor will make MORE TQ and for longer then the same NA motor ever would right?

You cannot compare a boosted motors output to a NA cars output. The boosted car will almost always win in every category of acceleration.

Oh god here we go

your right a boosted motor will have increase over a non boost motor but a 400 hp boosted motor is under more strain due to various factors when comapired to a motor that is producing 400 hp with out boost.

It comes down to personal prefference. I never said there
is anything wrong with boost

get your panties outa your turbo

richie_s999 04-30-2010 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR (Post 1415675)
What the heck are you talking about. MarkD will tune just like any other tuner does.. for what the motor needs.

The amount of TQ/HP all depends on your setup of head(s)/cam(s)/turbo/manifold(s)/exhaust, etc.

So yes, I invite you to ask MarkD what he tunes for. Because in the end the motor will dictate the amount of advance and fuel it will require and that will give you your power. Where and how the power is made in the RPM range and for how long is done by properly choosing your components and what you want to achieve.



It's funny case last year at a members meeting Mark was speaking at he said he tunes for mid range torque and not high end rpm hp which is commly used to mislead people into thinking it better cause of a bigger number. Tuning a car for mid range torque is where your gonna use it and bennifit the most.

black bnr32 04-30-2010 11:17 PM

Looks like a 35R'd M30

richie_s999 05-01-2010 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by black bnr32 (Post 1415681)
Looks like a 35R'd M30

Love to know what gears they are running in the car and what they are using it for.

NOTORIOUS VR 05-01-2010 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie_s999 (Post 1415676)
Oh god here we go

your right a boosted motor will have increase over a non boost motor but a 400 hp boosted motor is under more strain due to various factors when comapired to a motor that is producing 400 hp with out boost.

Really? Would you like to quantify that with any facts? Not only that, you making a pretty broad statement as well. If you're talking about a 6L V8 making 400hp vs a 2L 4 cyl then maybe, but that doesn't mean the 4 cyl will not last as long. Fact is with the proper tuning and component choice the boosted motor will "live" just as long as your NA motor.

On the flip side, what about a small displacement NA motor trying to make the power of a small displacement turbo motor, which one do you think is under more strain?

Quote:

It comes down to personal prefference. I never said there
is anything wrong with boost

get your panties outa your turbo
Nor did I say there is anything wrong with going NA, but you right off the bat implied that numbers don't mean anything yet in real life, yet a boosted motor makes MORE usable power then an NA motor which is what you were trying to argue against in your previous posts.

Take a look at OEM's, they're all going to smaller displacement, less cylinders and turbocharging to get the same power while getting more economy (read: efficiency) then what would be possible with an NA motor.

It's pretty simple FI > NA in pretty much any case.

NOTORIOUS VR 05-01-2010 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie_s999 (Post 1415679)
It's funny case last year at a members meeting Mark was speaking at he said he tunes for mid range torque and not high end rpm hp which is commly used to mislead people into thinking it better cause of a bigger number. Tuning a car for mid range torque is where your gonna use it and bennifit the most.

I personally believe you read into that a little too much and really don't understand tuning as a whole.

black bnr32 05-01-2010 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie_s999 (Post 1415690)
Love to know what gears they are running in the car and what they are using it for.

Probably says it in the bimmerforums thread; I just can't remember off the top of my head. I'm sure you could call Miller and find out as it seems to be one of their standard MS3 builds.

richie_s999 05-01-2010 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR (Post 1415692)
Really? Would you like to quantify that with any facts? Not only that, you making a pretty broad statement as well. If you're talking about a 6L V8 making 400hp vs a 2L 4 cyl then maybe, but that doesn't mean the 4 cyl will not last as long. Fact is with the proper tuning and component choice the boosted motor will "live" just as long as your NA motor.

On the flip side, what about a small displacement NA motor trying to make the power of a small displacement turbo motor, which one do you think is under more strain?



Nor did I say there is anything wrong with going NA, but you right off the bat implied that numbers don't mean anything yet in real life, yet a boosted motor makes MORE usable power then an NA motor which is what you were trying to argue against in your previous posts.

Take a look at OEM's, they're all going to smaller displacement, less cylinders and turbocharging to get the same power while getting more economy (read: efficiency) then what would be possible with an NA motor.

It's pretty simple FI > NA in pretty much any case.



Seriously your saying that by adding more presure and heat your not adding strain on internal parts?

I'm not trying to knock boost, and either I,m not getting my point out in a way you understand it, or you just have you mind made up that boost is better cause thats what you like.

done properly yes a boosted car will be reliable, its all up to the internals being upgraded to match the pressure, then deal with the heat caused by putting the ait under presure, intercooler, piping turbo or SC, and what ever other verity of added systems you need to add to keep things cool.

after all is said and done you've added alot of weight to the front of your car, inturn upseting the weight balance (something BMW is good for) and then have to adjust things out by changing spring rates and what not to get your handling back. I could really piss you off and we could start to talk about the advantage of RWD vs FWD or AWD and how it affects a car in anything but a strait line!!!

Please don't add something to things I have said, I never compaired a V8 to a 4 pot, thats twisting someones words.

As for New cars going smaller dispacement and adding boost for power, everyone who has been following things knows this is only to meet goverment regualtions which are getting SO outa hand its crazy. Its costing THOUSANDS more to produce cars to meet standards just laid out for the upcoming years, and the enviroment minister is actually trying to tell people that the $5000 plus its gonna cost them to get a car that meets the standard is going to come back to them in fuel savings over 5 years? but thats another thread!

Now back to what I actully said, yes dyno numbers Do NOTshow what a car will actually do on the street/track or anything but how much power its getting to the wheels. They are a measurement of what the motor is producing and how much power loss the driveline is taking.....THATS IT

True numbers of performance come from skid pad, acceleration test, track times, all of which show how all the cars components are working to actually use what ever power your making.

you,ve got some good dyno numbers and drag slip times in your sig, but I know enough that its only reliative to showing some factors of performance.

Someone just told me the other day about his times at Mosport, he had previously been running a VW with about 8G's of properly done mods under the hood, and when he got his first BMW, a E36 328, he took off 4 seconds of his track time the first time out with a bone stock car.

I,m not trying to tell anyone not to boost a car, but like I said in mu origional post, show me the tourque, and how your using it, and getting it to actully make the car faster!!!

richie_s999 05-01-2010 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by black bnr32 (Post 1415701)
Probably says it in the bimmerforums thread; I just can't remember off the top of my head. I'm sure you could call Miller and find out as it seems to be one of their standard MS3 builds.

A car with that kinda power could be a killer on long sweeping turns and strait aways with a long set of gears! BUt without knowing what its built for who knows, could just be built to show how much power they can make.

Another BM 05-01-2010 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NOTORIOUS VR (Post 1415625)
^^^ glad you decided to go that way. Just remember that if you just swap to an "I" head (885 casting) with the E bottom end the compression will be pretty low, so matching a turbo will be ever so more important.

That said, it's been done many times and if you want to go that way do it! Just don't bother with chips and RRFPR's. Go standalone or if your willing talk to MarkD on here and get a tune the proper way and never look back.

Also check out e30tech.com.

Good luck!

for sure i'm going to talk to mark D... as i was doing research over at revlimited and e30tech i was shocked at how many posts people mention Mark D and his tuning and chips..
LOL we got a celebrity in our forums

NOTORIOUS VR 05-01-2010 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie_s999 (Post 1415722)
Seriously your saying that by adding more presure and heat your not adding strain on internal parts?

No I never said that. But you clearly don't believe that an NA motor is under stress either.

Quote:

I'm not trying to knock boost, and either I,m not getting my point out in a way you understand it, or you just have you mind made up that boost is better cause thats what you like.
Yes you are knocking boost. And you're not getting your point across because you keep changing "your" point.

Quote:

done properly yes a boosted car will be reliable, its all up to the internals being upgraded to match the pressure, then deal with the heat caused by putting the ait under presure, intercooler, piping turbo or SC, and what ever other verity of added systems you need to add to keep things cool.
Ok, so what's the problem? Why did you even bring up "stress" in this thread?

Quote:

after all is said and done you've added alot of weight to the front of your car, inturn upseting the weight balance (something BMW is good for) and then have to adjust things out by changing spring rates and what not to get your handling back. I could really piss you off and we could start to talk about the advantage of RWD vs FWD or AWD and how it affects a car in anything but a strait line!!!
BMW seems to manage just fine with weight distribution on their cars with FI, so I really don't get what point you're trying to make at this point? If someone who is building a car is really worried about weight distribution after the fact getting set of custom spring rates, valved dampers and throwing it on a scale isn't that big of a deal. Also most of the time the extra mass from the turbo components are in the middle of the car. Example, an M20 turbo E30 might weigh the same as an M30 swapped E30, but the M20 will have less weight over the front wheels.

Quote:

Please don't add something to things I have said, I never compaired a V8 to a 4 pot, thats twisting someones words.
I'm not twisting words, you made a general blanket statement. I gave an example. You can't just say a boosted motor is under more stress and give certain parameters.

Quote:

As for New cars going smaller dispacement and adding boost for power, everyone who has been following things knows this is only to meet goverment regualtions which are getting SO outa hand its crazy. Its costing THOUSANDS more to produce cars to meet standards just laid out for the upcoming years, and the enviroment minister is actually trying to tell people that the $5000 plus its gonna cost them to get a car that meets the standard is going to come back to them in fuel savings over 5 years? but thats another thread!
That's part of it you're right, but it's an example I had to provide.

Quote:

Now back to what I actully said, yes dyno numbers Do NOTshow what a car will actually do on the street/track or anything but how much power its getting to the wheels. They are a measurement of what the motor is producing and how much power loss the driveline is taking.....THATS IT
I never said different. But you were talking about TQ, and how it drops off at high RPM with a boosted motor, which is just incorrect. This just went off course when you were trying to defend your original statement.

Quote:

True numbers of performance come from skid pad, acceleration test, track times, all of which show how all the cars components are working to actually use what ever power your making.
Really who ever said different... but really there are a lot more to the tests you mentioned because of the many environmental variables (just like with any test) and lol skid pad... one of the useless tests ever since it's mainly a test of the tires not of suspension.

Quote:

you,ve got some good dyno numbers and drag slip times in your sig, but I know enough that its only reliative to showing some factors of performance.
My car originally makes one of the flattest TQ curves in the industry, it was actually one of the first to do that! the 335 is another good example of this.

They both make lots of TQ and HP "under the curve" which makes the FASTER then their numbers suggest. There is a reason to this though and it comes to component choice.

Quote:

Someone just told me the other day about his times at Mosport, he had previously been running a VW with about 8G's of properly done mods under the hood, and when he got his first BMW, a E36 328, he took off 4 seconds of his track time the first time out with a bone stock car.
While that might be true for the person who you talked to, I find it hard to believe that is an absolute. Either he spent the money wrong on that car or started with the wrong platform to begin with in the motor dept. Mosport is a pretty "fast" track.

[quotw]I,m not trying to tell anyone not to boost a car, but like I said in mu origional post, show me the tourque, and how your using it, and getting it to actully make the car faster!!![/QUOTE]

I give up.

e30_kid89 05-01-2010 09:35 AM

LOL, cant compare a vdub to a BMW, the bmw is at home at the track naturally in it's stock form (Look at John)

As for useable TQ, I should give you a ride In my car some day, My car is not like your typical youtube E30 where it gets going at 5k+, There's tons of usable TQ and power...Heck I don't even get that much wheelspin!:D

Look at this dyno of a M30B35 on 8.5psi;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1..._85psi_MS2.jpg

300+whp @ 3500rpms? seems usable to me!

As far as the TQ dropoff thats just the natural poor VE of the m30, a turbo cam would help that out. On M5X motors boosted they keep the power going all the way to redline in most cases since its got 12 more valves.

As for weight dist. It's simple, go bottom mount. 99% of the time the weight of the turbo is behind the front axle you've sucessfully moved the weight of the A/C compressor towards the rear of the car = distrubitionz

e30_kid89 05-01-2010 09:40 AM

Here's another example:

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../IMG_2428R.jpg

Again usable TQ from about 3.5k (you wouldn't be spinning any lower on a track right?) and peak HP right up at 6k....500+whp up there seems linear enough:D

that was on a stock s52 @ 16psi with just a 61mm turbo btw.

NOTORIOUS VR 05-01-2010 11:44 AM

There's no point in even arguing with the guy.

Engines are so damn inefficient, everyone should know this. So increasing the VE for basically "free" by the use of a gas driven turbine when the right components are selected makes all of his points he's trying to argue null and void.

black bnr32 05-01-2010 12:36 PM

Richie, have you owned a big power FI car before? just curious.

Mister 05-02-2010 09:59 AM

Piping in a little late, but anyway,M30 all the way,since they make nasty torque and adding a turbo adds even more torque.
M30's are to simple,stock mid 80s engines are the right compression, timing chain, no belt. There are a ton of them, if you blow it up, so what,local yard run and you are back in the game. AS far as weight,stock the m30 is 60 pounds heavier than stock e30 engines.My turbo T04B .81 AR. is low slung behind front axle,3 in exhaust front to back.all air condition piping,compressors weight gone.No clutch fan. I use the stock air condition circuit to engage aux fan during in town low speed driving,72C thermostat. I dumped stock calipers for wilwood dynalites and rotors, 750i master cylinder(moves 18 % more fluid), bilsteins,eibach ground control, electromotive tec2 standalone,225 50 15 basket weaves,no 5 lug swap thats weight 3.25 Lsd
87 325is. Beauty is more than skin deep on this bitch.

this site is older i believe check it out.
http://cartech.net/bmwm30turbo.htm
my exhaust manifold,turbo,waste gate are one in the same.
you can see other packages as well and some numbers.

I am going to try and make some meets soon ,just finishing up some winter projects on the old girl. Mister

HavocSteve 05-02-2010 03:18 PM

I was going to mention that my stock motor does well.. it purrs like a kitty.. Have the same car as you Mister except I didn't motor swap. I'm going to not boost it till I know I get all the right parts for it before I go half ass the job and end up blowing up a valve or something.

richie_s999 05-03-2010 10:27 AM

*th-up*Mister and E30_kid89, both guys I know who have actually taken the time to build there turbo cars the right way, cool part is they booth went same rought with out ever meeting each other, they are great guys and dont' FORCE their opions and I respect them for that.

Notorious VR...seriously your pushing the limits of what an argument or dicussion even is, your right in saying their is not point arguing, but thats because you ignorant to anything you don't think is the best way to go, so just drop it and go have fun with your over powered audi and usless drivline system, you really want to prove how great you car is come to the autocrosses, and show us, other wise can it.

Black bnrn, No i have never personally owned a FI car, but driving many many many of them. Ive been around since you first got a 365 learners permit instead of a graduated one, and I,m not going to start spouting off all the cars I have driven in and been around and involved with.

I'm done, you like boosted cars thats cool, I like na cars but I can repect booth, and don't tell me I am wrong about things cause you opion is different, thats being ignorant.

Have a good day, i'm outa here!!!!!!!!!!!!:P


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