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View Full Version : McLaren stripped of constructors' points


King Luis
09-13-2007, 03:05 PM
It has been decided.
Mclaren Mercedes will lose all constructors points for 2007 championship and will not score any points in 2008 and fined $100 million US..
Alonso and Hamilton will remain unpenalized and able to win the drivers championship.

more info and the reason at the link.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070913194710.shtml

Quack
09-13-2007, 03:24 PM
it's ****ing BS what they are doing, eventually McLaren will pull out of F1 & than they would be sorry.

King Luis
09-13-2007, 03:29 PM
what i find interesting is that it was a Ferrari mechanic giving information to McLaren.
The 'spygate' scandal has cast a gloomy shadow over the season since early July, when it emerged that Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney had given confidential information to McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan.

Boots R
09-13-2007, 03:36 PM
$100 million?

I don't follow F1, but are they ****ing crazy?

AceOfSpades
09-13-2007, 03:43 PM
it's ****ing BS what they are doing, eventually McLaren will pull out of F1 & than they would be sorry.

+1 its ****in bullshit!!!

BigD
09-13-2007, 04:48 PM
Hey at least BMW gets 2nd place by default

STALKER
09-13-2007, 04:55 PM
They got what they deserved.

Jim .E.
09-13-2007, 09:01 PM
it's ****ing BS what they are doing, eventually McLaren will pull out of F1 & than they would be sorry.

care to explain how its bullshit.

BMW03
09-14-2007, 12:53 AM
100 million that is ****ing craaaazzzzzzzy.

Jim .E.
09-14-2007, 01:47 AM
100 million that is ****ing craaaazzzzzzzy.

seeing as a F1 car is roughly $5 mill almost the price isnt too far fetched.

piran21
09-14-2007, 02:19 AM
Well, they should do something worthwhile with that money... other than their pockets... That's an insane fine either way. I wonder how it'll affect the drivers' performance for the rest of the season. Any word, what kind of information was on the Ferrari documents?

King Luis
09-14-2007, 02:38 AM
i believe the money is regarding sponsorship. they are to either pay or lose $100 million through sponsors. driver's points won't be deducted and hamilton and alonso will still be able to win the championship
no idea what was on the documents but it was an ferrari mechanic who provided it to mclaren.

SpudBoy
09-14-2007, 06:57 AM
If the Mclaren is based on ferrari technology why is it faster?:huh?:

BigD
09-14-2007, 07:39 AM
If the Mclaren is based on ferrari technology why is it faster?:huh?:

Because McLaren + Ferrari > Ferrari

As much as I like Ron Dennis, this totally makes sense. McLaren have been a firm 3rd place, with no challengers below and no real contention for anything higher, for the last what, 8 seasons? Now they come out and BAM, their cars don't break and even though they had to switch to Bridgestone which they know nothing about, they cope perfectly.

I think this is a good outcome, other than the insane fine (there's no way I can see them justifying that this cost everyone involved 100 million - I'm sure it cost ferrari a large amount of money - ie they sold a few less F430s type thing, but that's it). I'm very happy that the driver's don't get penalized because they can claim ignorance. There's always a much better car than the rest on the grid, be that thanks to honest hard work or cheating, it's the driver that gets it home in the end. If the McLaren boys were excluded from this year's championship and Ferrari were again left to battle over which of its cars gets 1st or 2nd, I'd never tune into another race and I'm sure most others wouldn't either. I don't know about you guys but I became a Lewis Hamilton fan the second he pulled that trap on Massa - what a clever trick and what balls and nerves of steel he must have to so badly shame an established driver at this level. I mean he didn't just quietly sit there and be the nice rookie who's just happy to be driving - he said I can kick all your asses and I'm going to do that NOW.

E36is
09-14-2007, 07:45 AM
^^ ferrari and FIA are in cahoots.. if they arent leading/winning the year they will do anything to 'right' it in their behalf.. if you dont believe that.. you only need to go thru the years when williams bmw was winning, honda was winning, and when mclaren was winning (hakkenin era). Ferrari and FIA will find ways to punish non ferrari teams. As for team espionage.. come on.. its not like this was the first time it happened.. it happens alot.. most recent was with toyota a few years back.. and when that happened.. ferrari was winning anyways so nothing really came about from it.

As a side note.. ferrari got kicked in the nands when rookie hamiliton strategically out cornered their multi million dollar driver rikonen at monza for 2nd place which firmly set off this penality and fine.

2slow2race
09-14-2007, 07:52 AM
**** ferrari!

Axxe
09-14-2007, 11:36 AM
**** this, I'm watching Nascar road courses. Rubbin' is racin'!! YEEEEHAAAAW

DoubleApexCa
09-14-2007, 12:03 PM
^^ ferrari and FIA are in cahoots.. if they arent leading/winning the year they will do anything to 'right' it in their behalf.. if you dont believe that.. you only need to go thru the years when williams bmw was winning, honda was winning, and when mclaren was winning (hakkenin era). Ferrari and FIA will find ways to punish non ferrari teams. As for team espionage.. come on.. its not like this was the first time it happened.. it happens alot.. most recent was with toyota a few years back.. and when that happened.. ferrari was winning anyways so nothing really came about from it.

As a side note.. ferrari got kicked in the nands when rookie hamiliton strategically out cornered their multi million dollar driver rikonen at monza for 2nd place which firmly set off this penality and fine.


1) Read the FIA Full Report...it's quite an eye opener.. http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdfMclaren originally insisted that only Mike Coughlan had Ferrari's technical info. That is clearly not the case as e-mails between Pedro De La Rosa and Fernando Alonso attest. It is quite clear that the information was being used to maximize McLaren's performance. One of FIA's biggest problems was that No-one in Mclaren raised the red flag to FIA, and said, hey we have a problem here. It was only when the scandal broke that Mclaren tried to firewall Mike Coughlan from Nigel Stepney.

2) With regards to the comment on the pass of Raikkonen---What a load of rubbish. Agreed, Ferrari was dealt a kick in the nards. However, Hamilton had an Easy pass because Raikonnen was suffering from a sore neck under braking as a result of his high speed crash into the wall during practice. To think that Mclaren's passing of Ferrari at monza is cause of the fine is well...:huh?: have some more *drink* .


I suggest learning the facts before spouting hyperbole.
G.

E36is
09-14-2007, 12:27 PM
^^ i'll repeat again.. FERRARI and FIA are in cahoots.. I really could not care less what the FIA full report says since they did nothing when Toyota, who was not a threat to ferrari's year, also got a hold of confidential information from ferrari a few years back.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:9QY2BSlabUsJ:www.formula1.net.au/+toyota+f1+exchanging+technology&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=27&gl=ca

cliff notes:

However, former McLaren driver and television commentator, Martin Brundle jumped to McLarens defence, questioning the FIA’s motives behind pursuing action against McLaren.

"Inside the paddock we can't fathom how, previously, two Toyota F1 employees can be handed prison sentences for industrial espionage using Ferrari software, yet the FIA was not interested in getting involved, and how Colin Kolles from Spyker could walk down the pit lane with a drawing from rival Toro Rosso presented as evidence of cloned cars, yet the FIA took no action," Brundle wrote in his Times column.

BigD
09-14-2007, 01:15 PM
**** this, I'm watching Nascar road courses. Rubbin' is racin'!! YEEEEHAAAAW

I don't know if you're serious but honestly, I watched a few (at Montreal, Road Atlanta and the Glen) and that was the most fun I've had watching a race in a looong time.

Boots R
09-14-2007, 02:02 PM
**** this, I'm watching Nascar road courses. Rubbin' is racin'!! YEEEEHAAAAW

Left.

Left.

Another left.

Look out! Left again.

Left.

Pit lane? Just a sharper left.

StikiGreenZ
09-14-2007, 02:48 PM
bahahahhahahaha, they do have 1-2 courses with turns (Montreal this year I believe, and Watkins Glen?)

BigD
09-14-2007, 03:16 PM
bahahahhahahaha, they do have 1-2 courses with turns (Montreal this year I believe, and Watkins Glen?)

baaah, 4. Mexico, Infineon, Glen, Villeneuve.

And as much fun as those are to watch, I may even give the oval a real shot for a change. If nothing else, the fact that all these world class drivers are going to NASCAR and getting their asses kicked then maybe it means there's a lot more to it than just turning left. Has Montoya even won a single oval race in the Nextel series yet? I'm curious how Villeneuve will do since he's kicked ass on the ovals too with IndyCar.

E36is
09-14-2007, 03:22 PM
^^ yea.. montoya won the Toyota/Save Mart 350 race back in june.. funny thing about that race was that he qualified 32nd and went thru to win that race.

BigD
09-14-2007, 03:37 PM
^^ yea.. montoya won the Toyota/Save Mart 350 race back in june.. funny thing about that race was that he qualified 32nd and went thru to win that race.

From what I've seen it's pretty typical. The front runner guys don't usually do well. I think Gordon was saying the ideal place to be is around the middle of the pack, towards the front. That way, you carry more fuel than the front runners so you can make it farther without stopping, and you get their draft, but you're also not so deep that when shit will inevitably go down, you will get collected.

Axxe
09-21-2007, 05:49 PM
Dmitry, I watched the race in Montreal. I was glued to the TV, the last few laps where amazing!! Three wide into the narrow chicanes, two cars off the road!! Lots of action, and genuinely good driving.

Lower_Level
09-21-2007, 07:08 PM
baaah, 4. Mexico, Infineon, Glen, Villeneuve.

And as much fun as those are to watch, I may even give the oval a real shot for a change. If nothing else, the fact that all these world class drivers are going to NASCAR and getting their asses kicked then maybe it means there's a lot more to it than just turning left. Has Montoya even won a single oval race in the Nextel series yet? I'm curious how Villeneuve will do since he's kicked ass on the ovals too with IndyCar.

My wife & I just got back from Loudon, NH where we took in the NASCAR race down there. Let me tell you; it's something to watch! 3200lbs & 800 hp on 10" tires is something to take in!

I'm sorry, but I can't get into watching racing where the cars are "programmed" to practically race themselves around the track...

Lower_Level
09-21-2007, 07:10 PM
Left.

Left.

Another left.

Look out! Left again.

Left.

Pit lane? Just a sharper left.

:moon:

BigD
09-21-2007, 08:08 PM
My wife & I just got back from Loudon, NH where we took in the NASCAR race down there. Let me tell you; it's something to watch! 3200lbs & 800 hp on 10" tires is something to take in!

I'm sorry, but I can't get into watching racing where the cars are "programmed" to practically race themselves around the track...

I'm trying Ringo, I'm trying real hard. It's just difficult to appreciate if you haven't done it and you appreciate road racing. I mean I understand it as a spectacle the same way I understand tractor pulls. It's loud and energetic as all hell but most of us watching racing are like golfers watching Tiger Woods - we know what it takes to play the game and we know how stupidly good you have to be to do what those people do. Driving around an oval is not impressive to the naked eye watching it on TV. You don't get any sense of speed, it just looks like a highway cruise. We aren't in the cockpit feeling the car slip and slide at 180mph, or even in the stands seeing them whip by.

But with F1, where the cars are more akin to fighter jets (in price tag in addition to everything else), you still have to have the ultimate driving skill to position and control the car and be brave enough to drive it at its limits, which are absolutely mind boggling. When we watch these cars go through a quarter mile of a complicated sequence of turns in like 4 seconds, the jaws drop. With oval racing... urr not so much.

Here's another parallel: football (aka soccer). I'd rather watch flies have gay sex. But I don't play the game, well last time I did I was a little kid in Russia and I don't remember enough to appreciate it. The rest of the world plays it and the same people are glued to the tube and kick each other's asses when their team loses. Oval racing is just like that. There are some sports you don't need to have done or seen in person to appreciate - like road racing, American football (except for queers who don't like guys knocking the **** out of each other) and ultimate fighting. Then there are boring to watch but difficult/fun to do sports - like golf, soccer and oval racing.

I don't think I'll ever really get into it because as much as I tell myself look, Montoya, whose INDY car crew chief said has superhuman reaction time (he was literally reacting faster with control corrections than a computer could, tiny fractions of a second), is getting his ass handed to him by fat good ole boys... but that's not enough to get into it, just not exciting. But now that they have more road courses, I'll make plans to watch each and every one of them because it's by far the closest thing to pure road racing competition I've seen on this level in... ever? Everyone is hungry, no one is afraid to bend a fender and the skill is undeniable, even on the boob tube.

Nascar318is
09-21-2007, 08:23 PM
baaah, 4. Mexico, Villeneuve.(Bush Series), Infineon, Glen(Cup Series)

And as much fun as those are to watch, I may even give the oval a real shot for a change. If nothing else, the fact that all these world class drivers are going to NASCAR and getting their asses kicked then maybe it means there's a lot more to it than just turning left. Has Montoya even won a single oval race in the Nextel series yet?(Nope) I'm curious how Villeneuve will do since he's kicked ass on the ovals too with IndyCar.

Don't forget about Carpentier next year, there's talks that the Owners of Gillette(Montreal CDN's Owner)/Evernham might pick him up. Paul Tracy did a few races with RCR, and can't forget your very own Missisauga native Ron Fellows:) It'll be interesting next year in the cup series for sure!
Montoya.. wait till next year it'll be good(If he doesn't wreck)

If you want to watch a race, watch Talladega it's coming up in a few weeks. 43 cars jam packed together 3-4 wide inches apart at 200MPH for 188 laps. That takes alot of skill. No mistakes or else you'll whipe out 15-20 cars.

As for this Macleren fine, I can understand it but 100mill is alot of dough. They should have cut that down to 50Mill and get rid of the points, not driver points. And take there cars away and start from scratch..That's my 2 cents..

BigD
09-21-2007, 08:30 PM
As for this Macleren fine, I can understand it but 100mill is alot of dough. They should have cut that down to 50Mill and get rid of the points, not driver points. And take there cars away and start from scratch..That's my 2 cents..

I personally feel that it's a ****ing farce. If they found McLaren guilty of spying and believe their car used so much Ferrari technology that it should be excluded from the constructor's championship, then anyone with an ounce of logic should see that this automatically means the drivers' should be as well - the constructor is being excluded because they had an unfair advantage... hey guess what the drivers were driving... A CAR WITH AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE!!! Sure it still takes a good driver to bring it home but lets face it, if you drive an F1 car against a pack of CARTs, it's not really that impressive or fair. The only reason they did what they did is because Lewis Hamilton is the hottest and freshest thing to happen to this sport since Senna and booting him out for the rest of the year will kill their viewership and the bottom line: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. So they realize that they can't just leave it at excluding the constructor because everyone will be screaming what I just wrote, so they give McLaren a giant fist up the ass to overcompensate for doing nothing to the drivers and continue making money.

Nascar318is
09-21-2007, 08:34 PM
I personally feel that it's a ****ing farce. If they found McLaren guilty of spying and believe their car used so much Ferrari technology that it should be excluded from the constructor's championship, then anyone with an ounce of logic should see that this automatically means the drivers' should be as well - the constructor is being excluded because they had an unfair advantage... hey guess what the drivers were driving... A CAR WITH AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE!!! Sure it still takes a good driver to bring it home but lets face it, if you drive an F1 car against a pack of CARTs, it's not really that impressive or fair. The only reason they did what they did is because Lewis Hamilton is the hottest and freshest thing to happen to this sport since Senna and booting him out for the rest of the year will kill their viewership and the bottom line: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. So they realize that they can't just leave it at excluding the constructor because everyone will be screaming what I just wrote, so they give McLaren a giant fist up the ass to overcompensate for doing nothing to the drivers and continue making money.

I'll retract my statement of Driver points. I should know this, and I don't know why I wasn't thinking of it.. But in Nascar if the car is illigal in some way(example: too low to the ground) then the owner would get 100points, 50K fine and the driver would get 100 point fine. And that's alot as you can get a max of 185 points in a race..

Lower_Level
09-21-2007, 09:49 PM
There are some sports you don't need to have done or seen in person to appreciate - like road racing, American football (except for queers who don't like guys knocking the **** out of each other) and ultimate fighting. Then there are boring to watch but difficult/fun to do sports - like golf, soccer and oval racing.

Point well made!

I guess coming from alot of time in dirt track racing; and being a large fan of the sport I do understand & appreciate the skills of oval track racers. However; for F1 I'd take a pass. Like I said earlier; these cars are so technically progressed I get the feeling that they could drive themselves around the car. Granted the driver plays a large role; but really... Most of the F1 races that I have watched have the guy who gets into the corner first wins the race. It's just not my cup of tea.

Now a night race at Bristol, TN... Guys who don't mind leaning on a guy through the corner... Now that's racin'!

BigD
09-21-2007, 09:58 PM
Granted the driver plays a large role; but really... Most of the F1 races that I have watched have the guy who gets into the corner first wins the race. It's just not my cup of tea.

Yeah it's true... I still watch because... hell I don't even know why in early 2010's. But now, there's actually 4 people vying for the win instead of 1 or 2. It's definitely true though that if you're not in the top one or two rides, you don't have a prayer of winning. And I think you're right that it would take very little for the cars to do everything on their own. Like I said, more roadcourses NASCAR, I'm sold!

Nascar318is
09-22-2007, 09:03 PM
Just a headsup- Villeneuve is making his Debut in the Nascar truck series. It's on speed right now.