PDA

View Full Version : Do I need intercooler for super charge?


Bimmer4ever
02-13-2007, 05:41 PM
Hey guys I just want to know do I need to buy intercooler for super charging? and if I do what job does this thing do ? thanks alot!

SickFinga
02-13-2007, 06:08 PM
Do you need it? Depends on how much boost you are running.
Is it recomemneded? YES.

What it does?

It lowers temperature of the air going into your engine from your supercharger.
Cooler air = denser air = more air = more power.
It also allows you to run more boost before your engine explodes. Why? No idea :D

jeffrie
02-13-2007, 06:40 PM
You do not need an intercooler till you start to pass about 8PSI with the SC approach.
To add to what Sickfinga said, as air is compressed it generates heat and becomes hotter. As your piston compresses air on the compression stroke as it would normaly do, the air/fuel mixture raised temp as it's compressed but within spec to what it was desighned for, add the new hotter compressed air into the mix = your alot closer to pre-ignition temps AKA "PING".
Too many of theis and your engine goes BOOM!.

fukenricen
02-13-2007, 08:24 PM
how about u worry about an oil cooler first

JMW
02-13-2007, 09:15 PM
i dont have either..
my kit doesnt need it stage 1..
stage 2....yes

Bimmer4ever
02-13-2007, 10:37 PM
oI SEE.. thank you guys !

modifiedm3
03-10-2007, 06:13 PM
Better off fitting a charge cooler than an Intercooler..

Jon@Bimmersport
03-15-2007, 05:35 PM
Better off fitting a charge cooler than an Intercooler..

My thoughts exactly...

AA uses an intercooler, but also the piping is a lot different than a Vortech unit (used on JMW and Stickyfingas). Both of their kits stage 1 form dont use it due to small boost, 6psi and 8psi. Once stage 2 is introduced they both use an aftercooler (cools after the s/c before the throttle body). Superchargers also suffer from "heat soak". The added cooling at any boost level will help your reliability and also the power.

sloveniaboy
03-15-2007, 05:42 PM
Superchargers also suffer from "heat soak". The added cooling at any boost level will help your reliability and also the power.

AA superchargers unlike the vortech units, run off their own oil system which include an oil cooler, they are less prone to heat soak

modifiedm3
04-04-2007, 05:07 PM
Go for a charge cooler. Well worth fitting.

Steve

PedroBMW
04-04-2007, 10:55 PM
My thoughts exactly...

Once stage 2 is introduced they both use an aftercooler (cools after the s/c before the throttle body).

an intercooler cools between the s/c and TB too, its just a slang term that Air/Air intercoolers are called "intercooler" because technically its an aftercooler. An intercooler presupercharger would do nothing. I think the reason that most supercharger kits use air/water aftercoolers is because of the packaging issue, there just isn't much space.

notjoe
04-10-2007, 11:18 AM
The compresson of air creates heat which is why i think it's placed after the blower.

Axxe
04-10-2007, 12:52 PM
an intercooler cools between the s/c and TB too, its just a slang term that Air/Air intercoolers are called "intercooler" because technically its an aftercooler. An intercooler presupercharger would do nothing. I think the reason that most supercharger kits use air/water aftercoolers is because of the packaging issue, there just isn't much space.

Another benefit to water to air intercoolers is the reduced length of charge pipe. 12" of charge pipe is much better for throttle response tan 6 feet of charge pipe. Also, I've seen the way AA routes their intercooler lines, can't say I'm all that impessed with the low underslung tube (lowest point on the car) and multiple 90* bends. I'm sure it doesn't affect much or else AA wouldn't do that, but it would be the deal breaker for me.

330DTM
04-10-2007, 01:18 PM
Another benefit to water to air intercoolers is the reduced length of charge pipe. 12" of charge pipe is much better for throttle response tan 6 feet of charge pipe. Also, I've seen the way AA routes their intercooler lines, can't say I'm all that impessed with the low underslung tube (lowest point on the car) and multiple 90* bends. I'm sure it doesn't affect much or else AA wouldn't do that, but it would be the deal breaker for me.

With regards to the rotrex setup, the blower takes up less space than the vortech units, so there is more room left over to fit a FMIC, and I quesetion if AA did this mainly due to cutting cost to make the kit affordable. Afterall, I believe water-air intercoolers cost more than the FMICs and there's less of a pressure drop than using a FMIC.

To sum it up, use a water-air intercooler for vortech setups.

Furious
04-10-2007, 02:23 PM
with prices in mind the aftercooler is more expensive but better suited for the vortech system.

PedroBMW
04-10-2007, 05:52 PM
The compresson of air creates heat which is why i think it's placed after the blower.

yep, thats why I said an intercooler before the blower wouldn't do anything,


about the A/A or W/A intercoolers, I saw a guy on bf.c not long ago that managed to plumb in a FMIC to his vortech blower. It is doable, but like was said earlier its just to ****in big which makes routing the pipes less than ideal (still comparable to the routing A/A does though, which isn't great either like axxe said) but probably cost 1/4 of the price of the A/W aftercooler. That being said, if I had a non-intercooled/aftercooled S/C I would do everything I possibly could to get a FMIC in there cause the price of the aftercoolers is freakin crazy.

everlast
04-10-2007, 11:52 PM
Pedro, can you clarify your opinion of the difference between an aftercooler and an intercooler with regards to your post?

Jon@Bimmersport
04-10-2007, 11:54 PM
an intercooler cools between the s/c and TB too, its just a slang term that Air/Air intercoolers are called "intercooler" because technically its an aftercooler. An intercooler presupercharger would do nothing. I think the reason that most supercharger kits use air/water aftercoolers is because of the packaging issue, there just isn't much space.

Sorry I guess I should have made myself more clear to what i meant..they serve the same purpose yes but they mount in different locations. *wave*

I installed both AA rotrex and Vortech based kits, and personally I think the aftercooler makes more sense...because the AA kit's piping goes around the engine bay making it more cluttered, and the location ofthe bypass valve is in the worst location for lowered cars or cars driven with shitty roads. ...the downside of the aftercooler is working on the car, especially the ICV on OBD2 cars.

EDIT: I should have read everything again, Axxe basically posted what I just did....jonny_blaze FTL on this one. :(

PedroBMW
04-11-2007, 12:35 AM
Pedro, can you clarify your opinion of the difference between an aftercooler and an intercooler with regards to your post?

If your referring to my first post, its not my opinion I was just commenting because the of what johnny blaze had said but he has since corrected himself. An intercooler and aftercooler are both just heat exchangers located after the compressor and before the throttle body (they accomplish the same purpose). Aftercooler is an Air to Water heat exhanger meaning the heat transfer is from the intake charge too some coolant. An intercooler is an Air to Air heat exchanger meaning that the heat is transferred from the intake charge to the ambient air rushing by the intercooler.

Technically both should be called an aftercooler by true definition, however Air to Air heat exchangers in FI applications are called intercoolers instead. However the true definition of an intercooler is a heat exhanger located between compressors in a cycle with multiple compressions. But anyway none of this shit is important just a little factoid i guess.

everlast
04-11-2007, 12:56 AM
Ah, i get you now, i just wasn't used to using the term aftercooler for a air-to-water intercooler.. Gotcha. I had begun wondering what a beforecooler was. ;)

To me, the after-school-special lesson learned is:

Air / air intercooler is easier to build, parts are easy to get and cheap and is effective. On a turbo it is likely you are running the intake air from the exhaust side to the intake side already, so adding an intercooler adds only a marginal amount of air volume.

Air / water intercooler (or aftercooler) is more complex. The actual charge pipe location cooler can be expensive. The system needs a water pump and additional reservoir, in additional to the radiator. However, while the total component space is about equal to the air setup, the items are spread out and easier to layout in a tight fitting engine bay. Also, a s/c setup could be running on the intake side only, so this could be better to keep that charge pipe short.

I bet that miscalculating the radiator, cooler or water volume would be easy to spot in a water based setup, whilst I would hazard that a majority of the air setups on this earth are the wrong size, etc, but it is difficult to tell by any easy-to-point-to factors.

I would love to do a water setup using the transmission cooler section of the radiator as the water's radiator. I installed an auto rad in my manual for just this reason.

Optionally, it would also be super cool to build a new intake to adapt an air intercooler directly into the intake.

sthomas
04-11-2007, 11:37 AM
So what about a misting unit? I've reading about these and they seem to kill two birds (or at least help). Placed after the S/C (so in the charged air) they help cool the charge, and slow the burn (water/ethanol mixture I believe - winter window wiper fluid was suggested).

Anybody using this? Good? Bad?

everlast
04-11-2007, 11:46 AM
I believe they're good. I think The Sly did water injection, perhaps? Not sure actually.

everlast
04-14-2007, 03:40 PM
I am changing my opinion after re-reading the section on intercoolers in the book Supercharged! that misting unit are not good. If properly intercooled, you shouldn't need a misting unit.

Excellent book, btw, written by Corky Bell (of Maximum Boost fame) and is fairly recent and very relevent. They do a custom s/c a BMW in it, too.

modifiedm3
06-06-2007, 11:11 AM
To get a customer charge cooler made your are looking at about 3000 ($5500 USD) It is not a simple job

Steve

modifiedm3
06-06-2007, 11:12 AM
I have water injection and also CO2 on my engine

Steve

everlast
06-06-2007, 11:43 AM
To get a customer charge cooler made your are looking at about 3000 ($5500 USD) It is not a simple job

Steve

What is it made from.. gold?

modifiedm3
06-06-2007, 11:51 AM
no aluminium. lots of work involed. Much more than people realise.

Steve

everlast
06-06-2007, 11:55 AM
Seems crazy though.. I've seen new front clips built for Busch cars for less money.

JMW
10-08-2007, 04:34 PM
To get a customer charge cooler made your are looking at about 3000 ($5500 USD) It is not a simple job

Steve


3000 quid is more like 6300 usd

NateoriouS
10-08-2007, 04:52 PM
i dont have either..
my kit doesnt need it stage 1..
stage 2....yes

hey just curious, where did you get your supercharger and installation?

and how much if you don't mind.. :)

JMW
10-09-2007, 09:49 AM
my kit is from vfengineering....
bimmersport automotive installed it...and did a wonderful job...i even pulled on a twinscrew supercharged bimmer done by another shop that later that night blew its engine hahah
give them a call....they will help u out

NateoriouS
10-09-2007, 10:26 AM
^^^ thanx.... will do..!