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ltrotsky
08-17-2006, 01:28 PM
It seems that the Chinese are switched on thinkers. They realize in the not too distant future that their current situation will no longer be sustainable without increasing their global footprint and guess where they are going ?????

Canada and the USA... lots of wide open spaces!

War Is Not Far from Us and Is the Midwife of the Chinese Century
Leading CCP official argues for exterminating U.S. population
By Chi Haotian
Aug 08, 2005

The following is a transcript of a speech believed to have been given by Mr. Chi Haotian, Minster of Defense and vice-chairman of China’s Central Military Commission. Independently verifying the authorship of the speech is not possible. It is worth reading because it is believed to set out the CCP’s strategy for the development of China. The speech argues for the necessity of China using biological warfare to depopulate the United States and prepare it for a future massive Chinese colonization. “The War Is Not Far from Us and Is the Midwife of the Chinese Century” was published on February 15, 2005 on www.peacehall.com and was published on www.boxun.com on April 23, 2005. This speech and a related speech, “The War Is Approaching Us” are analyzed in The Epoch Times original article “The CCP’s Last-ditch Gamble: Biological and Nuclear War.”

Text of the speech:

Comrades,

I’m very excited today, because the large-scale online survey sina.com that was done for us showed that our next generation is quite promising and our Party’s cause will be carried on. In answering the question, “Will you shoot at women, children and prisoners of war,” more than 80 percent of the respondents answered in the affirmative, exceeding by far our expectations [1].

Today I’d like to focus on why we asked sina.com to conduct this online survey among our people. My speech today is a sequel to my speech last time [2], during which I started with a discussion of the issue of the three islands [3], mentioned that 20 years of the idyllic theme of “peace and development” had come to an end, and concluded that modernization under the saber is the only option for China’s next phase. I also mentioned we have a vital stake overseas. Today, I’ll speak more specifically on these two issues.

The central issue of this survey appears to be whether one should shoot at women, children and prisoners of war, but its real significance goes far beyond that. Ostensibly, our intention is mainly to figure out what the Chinese people’s attitude towards war is: If these future soldiers do not hesitate to kill even non-combatants, they’ll naturally be doubly ready and ruthless in killing combatants. Therefore, the responses to the survey questions may reflect the general attitude people have towards war.

Actually, however, this is not our genuine intention. The purpose of the CCP Central Committee in conducting this survey is to probe people’s minds. We wanted to know: If China’s global development will necessitate massive deaths in enemy countries, will our people endorse that scenario? Will they be for or against it?

As everybody knows, the essence of Comrade Xiaoping’s [4] thinking is “development is the hard truth.” And Comrade Jintao [5] has also pointed out repeatedly and empathetically that “development is our top priority,” which should not be neglected for even a moment. But many comrades tend to understand “development” in its narrow sense, assuming it to be limited to domestic development. The fact is, our “development” refers to the great revitalization of the Chinese nation, which, of course, is not limited to the land we have now but also includes the whole world.

Why do we put it this way?
Defense Minster Chi Haotian (Jonathan Utz/AFP/Getty Images)
Both Comrade Liu Huaqing [6], one of the leaders of the old generation in our Party, and Comrade He Xin [7], a young strategist for our Party, have repeatedly stressed the theory regarding the shift of the center of world civilization. Our slogan of “revitalizing China” has this way of thinking as its basis. You may look into the newspapers and magazines published in recent years or go online to do some research to find out who raised the slogan of national revitalization first. It was Comrade He Xin. Do you know who He Xin is? He may look aggressive and despicable when he speaks in public, with his sleeves and pants all rolled up, but his historical vision is a treasure our Party should cherish.

Next, I’d like to address these three issues.

The first issue is living space. This is the biggest focus of the revitalization of the Chinese race. In my last speech, I said that the fight over basic living resources (including land and ocean) is the source of the vast majority of wars in history. This may change in the information age, but not fundamentally. Our per capita resources are much less than those of Germany’s back then. In addition, economic development in the last twenty-plus years had a negative impact, and climates are rapidly changing for the worse. Our resources are in very short supply. The environment is severely polluted, especially that of soil, water, and air. Not only our ability to sustain and develop our race, but even its survival is gravely threatened, to a degree much greater than faced Germany back then.

Anybody who has been to Western countries knows that their living space is much better than ours. They have forests alongside the highways, while we hardly have any trees by our streets. Their sky is often blue with white clouds, while our sky is covered with a layer of dark haze. Their tap water is clean enough for drinking, while even our ground water is so polluted that it can’t be drunk without filtering. They have few people in the streets, and two or three people can occupy a small residential building; in contrast, our streets are always crawling with people, and several people have to share one room.

Many years ago, there was a book titled Yellow Catastrophes. It said that, due to our following the American style of consumption, our limited resources would no longer support the population and society would collapse, once our population reaches 1.3 billion. Now our population has already exceeded this limit, and we are now relying on imports to sustain our nation. It’s not that we haven’t paid attention to this issue. The Ministry of Land Resources is specialized in this issue.

But the term “living space” (lebensraum) is too closely related to Nazi Germany. The reason we don’t want to discuss this too openly is to avoid the West’s association of us with Nazi Germany, which could in turn reinforce the view that China is a threat. Therefore, in our emphasis on He Xin’s new theory, “Human rights are just living rights,” we only talk about “living,” but not “space,” so as to avoid using the term “living space.” From the perspective of history, the reason that China is faced with the issue of living space is because Western countries have developed ahead of Eastern countries. Western countries established colonies all around the world, therefore giving themselves an advantage on the issue of living space. To solve this problem, we must lead the Chinese people outside of China, so that they could develop outside of China.

The second issue is our focus on the leadership capacity of the ruling party. We’ve done better on this than their party. Although the Nazis spread their power to every aspect of the German national government, they did not stress their absolute leadership position like we have. They did not take the issue of managing the power of the party as first priority, which we have. When Comrade Mao Zedong summarized the “three treasures” of our party’s victory in conquering the country, he considered the most important “treasure” to be developing the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and strengthening its leadership position.

We have to focus on two points to fortify our leadership position and improve our leadership capacity.

The first is to promote the “Three Represents” theory [8], stressing that our Party is the pioneer of the Chinese race, in addition to being the pioneer of the proletariat. Many citizens say in private, “We never voted for you, the Communist Party, to represent us. How can you claim to be our representatives?”

There’s no need to worry about this issue. Comrade Mao Zedong said that if we could lead our allies to victory and make them benefit, they would support us. Therefore, as long as we can lead the Chinese people outside of China, resolving the lack of living space in China, the Chinese people will support us. At that time, we don’t have to worry about the labels of “totalitarianism” or “dictatorship.” Whether we can forever represent the Chinese people depends on whether we can succeed in leading the Chinese people out of China.

The second point, whether we can lead the Chinese people out of China, is the most important determinant of the CCP’s leadership position.

Why do I say this?

Everyone knows that without the leadership of our Party, China would not exist today. Therefore, our highest principle is to forever protect our Party’s leadership position. Before June 4, we realized vaguely that as long as China’s economy is developed, people would support and love the Communist Party. Therefore we had to use several decades of peacetime to develop China’s economy. No matter what -isms, whether it is a white cat or a black cat, it is a good cat if it can develop China’s economy. But at that time, we did not have mature ideas about how China would deal with international disputes after its economy is developed.

ltrotsky
08-17-2006, 01:29 PM
Comrade Xiaoping said then that the main themes in the world were peace and development. But the June 4 riot gave our Party a warning and gave us a lesson that is still fresh. The pressure of China’s peaceful evolution makes us reconsider the main themes of our time. We see that neither of these two issues, peace and development, have been resolved. The western oppositional forces always change the world according to their own visions; they want to change China and use peaceful evolution to overturn the leadership of our Communist Party. Therefore, if we only develop the economy, we still face the possibility of losing control.

That June 4 riot almost succeeded in bringing a peaceful transition; if it were not for the fact that a large number of veteran comrades were still alive and at a crucial moment they removed Zhao Ziyang and his followers, then we all would have been put in prison. After death we would have been too ashamed to report to Marx. Although we have passed the test of June 4, after our group of senior comrades pass away, without our control, peaceful evolution may still come to China like it did to the former Soviet Union. In 1956, they suppressed the Hungarian Incident and defeated the attacks by Tito’s revisionists of Yugoslavia, but they could not withstand Gorbachev thirty some years later. Once those pioneering senior comrades died, the power of the Communist Party was taken away by peaceful evolution.

After the June 4 riot was suppressed, we have been thinking about how to prevent China from peaceful evolution and how to maintain the Communist Party’s leadership. We thought it over and over but did not come up with any good ideas. If we do not have good ideas, China will inevitably change peacefully, and we will all become criminals in history. After some deep pondering, we finally come to this conclusion: Only by turning our developed national strength into the force of a fist striking outward—only by leading people to go out —can we win forever the Chinese people’s support and love for the Communist Party. Our Party will then stand on invincible ground, and the Chinese people will have to depend on the Communist Party. They will forever follow the Communist Party with their hearts and minds, as was written in a couplet frequently seen in the countryside some years ago: “Listen to Chairman Mao, Follow the Communist Party!” Therefore, the June 4 riot made us realize that we must combine economic development with preparation for war and leading the people to go out! Therefore, since then, our national defense policy has taken a 180 degree turn and we have since emphasized more and more “combining peace and war.” Our economic development is all about preparing for the need of war! Publicly we still emphasize economic development as our center, but in reality, economic development has war as its center! We have made a tremendous effort to construct “The Great Wall Project” to build up, along our coastal and land frontiers as well as around large and medium-sized cities, a solid underground “Great Wall” that can withstand a nuclear war. We are also storing all necessary war materials. Therefore, we will not hesitate to fight a Third World War, so as to lead the people to go out and to ensure the Party’s leadership position. In any event, we, the CCP, will never step down from the stage of history! We’d rather have the whole world, or even the entire globe, share life and death with us than step down from the stage of history!!! Isn’t there a ‘nuclear bondage’ theory? It means that since nuclear weapons have bound the security of the entire world, all will die together if death is inevitable. In my view, there is another kind of bondage, and that is, the fate our Party is tied up with that of the whole world. If we, the CCP, are finished, China will be finished, and the world will be finished.

Our Party’s historical mission is to lead the Chinese people to go out. If we take the long view, we will see that history led us on this path. First, China’s long history has resulted in the world’s largest population, including Chinese in China as well as overseas. Second, once we open our doors, the profit-seeking western capitalists will invest capital and technology in China to assist our development, so that they can occupy the biggest market in the world. Third, our numerous overseas Chinese help us create the most favorable environment for the introduction of foreign capital, foreign technology and advanced experience into China. Thus, it is guaranteed that our reform and open-door policy will achieve tremendous success. Fourth, China’s great economic expansion will inevitably lead to the shrinkage of per-capita living space for the Chinese people, and this will encourage China to turn outward in search for new living space. Fifth, China’s great economic expansion will inevitably come with a significant development in our military forces, creating conditions for our expansion overseas. Even since Napoleon’s time, the West has been has been alert for the possible awakening of the sleeping lion that is China. Now, the sleeping lion is standing up and advancing into the world, and has become unstoppable!

What is the third issue we should clinch firmly in order to accomplish our historical mission of national renaissance? It is to hold firmly onto the big “issue of America.”

Comrade Mao Zedong taught us that we must have a resolute and correct political orientation. What is our key, correct orientation? It is to solve the issue of America.

This appears to be shocking, but the logic is actually very simple.

Comrade He Xin put forward a very fundamental judgment that is very reasonable. He asserted in his report to the Party Central Committee: The renaissance of China is in fundamental conflict with the western strategic interest, and therefore will inevitably be obstructed by the western countries doing everything they can. So, only by breaking the blockade formed by the western countries headed by the United States can China grow and move towards the world!

Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? First, if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do anything significant to Taiwan and some other countries! Second, even if we could snatch some land from Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even Japan, how much more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the United States, Canada and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization.

Therefore, solving the “issue of America” is the key to solving all other issues. First, this makes it possible for us to have many people migrate there and even establish another China under the same leadership of the CCP. America was originally discovered by the ancestors of the yellow race, but Columbus gave credit to the white race. We the descendents of the Chinese nation are entitled to the possession of the land! It is said that the residents of the yellow race have a very low social status in United States. We need to liberate them. Second, after solving the “issue of America,” the western countries in Europe would bow to us, not to mention to Taiwan, Japan and other small countries. Therefore, solving the “issue of America” is the mission assigned to CCP members by history.

I sometimes think how cruel it is for China and the United States to be enemies that are bound to meet on a narrow road! Do you remember a movie about Liberation Army troops led by Liu Bocheng and Deng Xiaoping? The title is something like “Decisive Battle on the Central Plains.” There is a famous remark in the movie that is full of power and grandeur: “The enemies are bound to meet on a narrow road, only the brave will win!” It is this kind of fighting to win or die spirit that enabled us to seize power in Mainland China. It is historical destiny that China and United States will come into unavoidable confrontation on a narrow path and fight each other! The United States, unlike Russia and Japan, has never occupied and hurt China, and also assisted China in its battle against the Japanese. But, it will certainly be an obstruction, and the biggest obstruction! In the long run, the relationship of China and the United States is one of a life-and-death struggle.

One time, some Americans came to visit and tried to convince us that the relationship between China and United States is one of interdependence. Comrade Xiaoping replied in a polite manner: “Go tell your government, China and the United States do not have such a relationship that is interdependent and mutually reliant.” Actually, Comrade Xiaoping was being too polite, he could have been more frank, “The relationship between China and United States is one of a life-and-death struggle.” Of course, right now it is not the time to openly break up with them yet. Our reform and opening to the outside world still rely on their capital and technology, we still need America. Therefore, we must do everything we can to promote our relationship with America, learn from America in all aspects and use America as an example to reconstruct our country.

ltrotsky
08-17-2006, 01:30 PM
* * *

Notes:

[1] Sina.com is one of the largest on-line media corporations in China. The on-line survey was launched by sina.com’s branch Sina Military (jczs.sina.com.cn). It started on February 2 and ended on March 1, 2004 and there were 31,872 persons who filled out the survey. The web page for this on-line survey is at “http://jczs.sina.com.cn/2004-02-02/1644180066.html” but this page has been removed and cannot be viewed.

The question was “If you are a solider, and if are under the orders of your commanding officers, will you shoot at women, children and prisoners of war?” 34% of the visitors answered they would shoot under any circumstances even without permission from their commanding officer. 48.6% of the visitors replied that they would shoot when the lives of themselves or their companies are threatened. Only 3.8% of the participants held they would not shoot under any circumstances. Those who agreed to shoot were mostly under the age of 25.

[2] “War Is Approaching Us”

[3] “Three islands” refer to Taiwan, Diaoyu Islands, and Spratly Islands.

[4] Deng Xiaoping (1904-1997). Officially, Deng was the leader of the CCP and China from 1978-89. Actually, after Mao's death in 1976 Deng became the de facto leader of China until Deng finally died in 1997.

[5] Hu Jintao (1942-). Leader of the "fourth generation" of CCP officials. In 2003, Hu became President of the People's Republic of China.

[6] Liu Huaqing (1916-). Commander of the Chinese People's Liberation Army Navy from 1982 through 1988, vice-chairman of China’s Central Military Commission (until 1997). Liu is considered to be responsible for the PLA’s modernization efforts.

[7] He Xin (1949-). Senior Fellow of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

[8] “Three Represents” states that the CCP represents the requirement to develop advanced productive forces, an orientation towards advanced culture, and the fundamental interests of the overwhelming majority of the people in China. It was put forward by Jiang Zemin, former Chinese president.

[9] Three Kingdoms refer to Wei, Shu, and Wu, three countries that overlapped the land of China during the period A.D. 220-80.

[10] “Three great mountains” were said according to the CCP to have weighed on the backs of the Chinese people—imperialism, feudalism and bureaucratic-capitalism.

BigD
08-17-2006, 02:55 PM
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/06/08/MN129538.DTL

Yes, very switched on dopes.

europrince
08-17-2006, 03:09 PM
Stop reading such nonsense.

ltrotsky
08-17-2006, 03:22 PM
Stop reading such nonsense.

If you don't have anything smart to say, don't say anything at all. Which in your case, don't post at all.

europrince
08-17-2006, 03:48 PM
If you don't have anything smart to say, don't say anything at all. Which in your case, don't post at all.
I have a lot to say, but I'm at work. I was direct and to the point.

Cabrio
08-17-2006, 04:32 PM
Obviously you cut and paste this posting from somewhere. Please post the link here so I can validate what you have posted.

Blades
08-17-2006, 04:56 PM
omg! .. c'mon this is a Forums board .. coles notes plz*sleep*

europrince
08-17-2006, 06:18 PM
Zzzzzzzzz

sirex
08-17-2006, 06:42 PM
Id like to see a war between the US and its allies against China. I want to see China get obliterated and held back and defeated.
Ive heard so much about China this and China that with its great manufacturing and the what not.

But lets face it, China doesn't have the engineering prowress that the US or Europe dues. They dont have the creativity to create and manufacture their own technologies. All they do is reverse engineering whatever we build in their country and even that they cant get right.

I guess the one fact that is sort of scary is the fact that how do you stop 500 million soldiers charging at you prepared to die? Probably more soldiers then that, knowing how the Chineese work theyd probably use women and children in their fighting forces.

Regardless the one thing that wins wars - and this is truth and has been recorded in history time and time again - is technological advancement, engineering and alot of creativity.

So I say if the Chineese want to have a war, let them. As far as Im concerned any peice of shit item you buy that has "Made in China" on it, is usualy a useless toy that you know will break down on you. Id like to see their made in China military.

As for the chinese being willing to kill women, children, and prisoners of war.... You think its all that different on this side of the fence?
As soon as I know that the enemy will kill my women and children without regret, all I have to do is say to my self, these people dont give a shit about me, or my people, thump and dump all of them.

The funniest thing is, how can a nation so large, that likes to think of itself so bright, make an obscene mistake like the one BigD posted? They cant even pladgerise properly. This is so Hilarious.... and we should be scared?

I wonder if their missiles blow up in their missile tubes.

europrince
08-17-2006, 06:53 PM
Id like to see a war between the US and its allies against China. I want to see China get obliterated and held back and defeated.
Ive heard so much about China this and China that with its great manufacturing and the what not.

But lets face it, China doesn't have the engineering prowress that the US or Europe dues. They dont have the creativity to create and manufacture their own technologies. All they do is reverse engineering whatever we build in their country and even that they cant get right.

I guess the one fact that is sort of scary is the fact that how do you stop 500 million soldiers charging at you prepared to die? Probably more soldiers then that, knowing how the Chineese work theyd probably use women and children in their fighting forces.

Regardless the one thing that wins wars - and this is truth and has been recorded in history time and time again - is technological advancement, engineering and alot of creativity.

So I say if the Chineese want to have a war, let them. As far as Im concerned any peice of shit item you buy that has "Made in China" on it, is usualy a useless toy that you know will break down on you. Id like to see their made in China military.

Sorry buddy, but you have it all wrong. Its western conglomatates that build factories in China to take advantage of low labour costs. Over half of all appliances and electronics we buy are built in China.... by companies we know. Its the West's money that is building China.

As such, China is slowly opening up to free enterprise, though in a controlled fashion, with the political powers at be controlling the rate of change.

Economics 201 lesson: Asian countries, namely China and Japan, are buying US treasury bonds to fund growing US government and consumer debt. US inflation hasn't grown quicker because of this capital infusion. US consumers then turn around and buy goods, on credit of course, mainly manufactured in China. This money flow into China then gets reinvested back into US dollars through the purchase of debt. Its a vicious cycle.

The US economy, which the world economy revolves around, relies on the health of this relationship, and vice versa. China will not be able to act on any imperialist agenda without severely harming its trade/economy.

China isn't, nor will be in the position, to act on any imperialist thoughts. The world economy will not permit that. Let's not even speak of the political institutions of the US and the UK.

Ltrotsky, you wanted an intelligent answer. Here you go. Imperialism died in the 1950s. Now take your bullshit propaganda elsewhere. Perhaps you can have a beer with Sacha Trudeau and talk about how fantastic Fidel Castro is.

Deep 3.2TL
08-17-2006, 06:53 PM
Didn't you get banned last time for this shit?

Deep

Blades
08-17-2006, 06:57 PM
Id like to see a war between the US and its allies against China. I want to see China get obliterated and held back and defeated.
Ive heard so much about China this and China that with its great manufacturing and the what not.

But lets face it, China doesn't have the engineering prowress that the US or Europe dues. They dont have the creativity to create and manufacture their own technologies. All they do is reverse engineering whatever we build in their country and even that they cant get right.

I guess the one fact that is sort of scary is the fact that how do you stop 500 million soldiers charging at you prepared to die? Probably more soldiers then that, knowing how the Chineese work theyd probably use women and children in their fighting forces.

Regardless the one thing that wins wars - and this is truth and has been recorded in history time and time again - is technological advancement, engineering and alot of creativity.

So I say if the Chineese want to have a war, let them. As far as Im concerned any peice of shit item you buy that has "Made in China" on it, is usualy a useless toy that you know will break down on you. Id like to see their made in China military.

As for the chinese being willing to kill women, children, and prisoners of war.... You think its all that different on this side of the fence?
As soon as I know that the enemy will kill my women and children without regret, all I have to do is say to my self, these people dont give a shit about me, or my people, thump and dump all of them.

The funniest thing is, how can a nation so large, that likes to think of itself so bright, make an obscene mistake like the one BigD posted? They cant even pladgerise properly. This is so Hilarious.... and we should be scared?

I wonder if their missiles blow up in their missile tubes.

spoken like a true ignorant american.

I say were all lucky that there still under communism because if they werent .. America wouldn't be in such great shape economy wise.

sirex
08-17-2006, 07:48 PM
LOL. There are lots of products - no name products- that are manufactured as copy cats by China and sold on our markets. These items were once built by our companies but after the contract is up, China gets to take over the factories.
These factories keep producing the same items, except now they dont stamp the company logo on them. The Chinese also cheap out on alot of parts and this is why the products we buy that are sold as chineese copy cats are truly shitty.

the products that are made their under american companies always turn out good. I never had issues with a north american item manufactured in China. Its alwas the Chineese items that fall apart.

Blades, you call me ignorant but you then go on to post something that doesn't make sense.. Firstly the reason why China is what it is today is because of its Communism and ruthless government. India is the same shit as China, I dont see them venturing to take over the world with their oh so great economy any time soon.

Anyway heres a history lesson for you. Every country that has had alot of power has had one thing in common. Invention.

The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the British, and the americans, even the Germans for a period of time.. These countries were succesful in the wars they fought, and the people they govermnet because of invention, creativity, inginuity. No super power lasts forever, but that doesn't mean in the end they get whiped out and loose their competitive edge.

So tell me oh wise ones that love China and think they will take over the world...

What is going to happen? What are they going to do? Fight us? Manufacture more for us? Improve their standard of living by sucking our money out of us??

There are 1.4 billion people in China. They will be lucky as a nation if 500,000 of these people even get to taste the lifestyles that we have, EVER. Call this ignorant call it whatever you want...China is still 30 years behind us. And when they do catch up all they will have to show for it is rubber dog shit that they can sell on our markets or reverse engineered/stolen ideas from north america and Europe.

Big deal?

There was a time when the Europeans thought the same thing about north america. We were manufacturing and producing ALOT of goods for Europe. Look where europe is today. They didn't exactly loose any ground. The big players in europe have remained big players. - France, Germany, Spain, England, Swiss, the list goes on. And what do we have to show for it? Weve been dominating for 200 years, and we still have not surpassed the standard of living in Europe. we work lik dogs, while the europeans enjoy their coffees, their beaches, and a pretty damn good way of life.

europrince
08-17-2006, 08:30 PM
LOL. There are lots of products - no name products- that are manufactured as copy cats by China and sold on our markets. These items were once built by our companies but after the contract is up, China gets to take over the factories.
These factories keep producing the same items, except now they dont stamp the company logo on them. The Chinese also cheap out on alot of parts and this is why the products we buy that are sold as chineese copy cats are truly shitty.

the products that are made their under american companies always turn out good. I never had issues with a north american item manufactured in China. Its alwas the Chineese items that fall apart.

Blades, you call me ignorant but you then go on to post something that doesn't make sense.. Firstly the reason why China is what it is today is because of its Communism and ruthless government. India is the same shit as China, I dont see them venturing to take over the world with their oh so great economy any time soon.

Anyway heres a history lesson for you. Every country that has had alot of power has had one thing in common. Invention.

The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the British, and the americans, even the Germans for a period of time.. These countries were succesful in the wars they fought, and the people they govermnet because of invention, creativity, inginuity. No super power lasts forever, but that doesn't mean in the end they get whiped out and loose their competitive edge.

So tell me oh wise ones that love China and think they will take over the world...

What is going to happen? What are they going to do? Fight us? Manufacture more for us? Improve their standard of living by sucking our money out of us??

There are 1.4 billion people in China. They will be lucky as a nation if 500,000 of these people even get to taste the lifestyles that we have, EVER. Call this ignorant call it whatever you want...China is still 30 years behind us. And when they do catch up all they will have to show for it is rubber dog shit that they can sell on our markets or reverse engineered/stolen ideas from north america and Europe.

Big deal?

There was a time when the Europeans thought the same thing about north america. We were manufacturing and producing ALOT of goods for Europe. Look where europe is today. They didn't exactly loose any ground. The big players in europe have remained big players. - France, Germany, Spain, England, Swiss, the list goes on. And what do we have to show for it? Weve been dominating for 200 years, and we still have not surpassed the standard of living in Europe. we work lik dogs, while the europeans enjoy their coffees, their beaches, and a pretty damn good way of life.

WRONG, buddy. ALL WRONG. The European economy grew this yeat at 0.9% ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/business/worldbusiness/15euecon.html?ref=business ) vs. the US's growth of 3.5%. (http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-08-17T145336Z_01_WBT005795_RTRIDST_0_ECONOMY-BUDGET-DEFICIT-FORECASTS-URGENT.XML ). Germany, the hub of the European economy, has been abyssmal, to say the least. It grew at 0.5% ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3593176.stm ).

As an economics student knows, standard of living is based on economic growth, not lattes, patios and beaches. Better luck next time. If you need to learn something about economics, I'll lend you a textbook or two.

Blades
08-17-2006, 11:55 PM
Blades, you call me ignorant but you then go on to post something that doesn't make sense.. Firstly the reason why China is what it is today is because of its Communism and ruthless government. India is the same shit as China, I dont see them venturing to take over the world with their oh so great economy any time soon.

Anyway heres a history lesson for you. Every country that has had alot of power has had one thing in common. Invention.

The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Romans, the British, and the americans, even the Germans for a period of time.. These countries were succesful in the wars they fought, and the people they govermnet because of invention, creativity, inginuity. No super power lasts forever, but that doesn't mean in the end they get whiped out and loose their competitive edge.

So tell me oh wise ones that love China and think they will take over the world...
.

India?? .. there to stupid to do anything .. and to lazy. If you think that invention rules the world then the greeks and the egyptians would be ruling the world as they started with inventions. China has a lot more people then most of the greater countries of the world.

sirex
08-18-2006, 12:19 AM
WRONG, buddy. ALL WRONG. The European economy grew this yeat at 0.9% ( http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/business/worldbusiness/15euecon.html?ref=business ) vs. the US's growth of 3.5%. (http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?type=bondsNews&storyID=2006-08-17T145336Z_01_WBT005795_RTRIDST_0_ECONOMY-BUDGET-DEFICIT-FORECASTS-URGENT.XML ). Germany, the hub of the European economy, has been abyssmal, to say the least. It grew at 0.5% ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3593176.stm ).

As an economics student knows, standard of living is based on economic growth, not lattes, patios and beaches. Better luck next time. If you need to learn something about economics, I'll lend you a textbook or two.

The european economy has been at the same freaking growth rate for the last 100 years and yet they still have what? 500 million people living decent life styles.

In any case, I take it youve never been to Europe nor seen the way they live. Economic growth also does not measure standard of living. If you go with this statement thatyou make, China's economic growth has been phenenominal in the past 10 years, and yet they still have a billion people living worse off then we are.. That is to say that only the elitists in china live like the average american. While the rest live off the scraps. So I dont see your measurement working here.

Also your post still says nothing about China.

Blades why is India too stupid to do anything? How and why is China so smart? They aren't even doing anything. All they do is allow us to build factories over there for cheap. Also I take it you didn't even read my post except skim it till you found something "weak" in my argument.

If China has so many more people with so much more brain power you would think that by now they would be a global super power reigning their fist on the world... But still they dont. Because they cant. They dont have the technological know how.

Ill say it once and Ill say it again. all china ever does is reverse engineering everything the europeans and americans and Japanese and Koreans create. Thats all they ever do and thats all they will ever do. They will never surpass us because they will always make our toys and gadgets that we SHOW Them how to make. They will never take over the market, they will never take us over military, they will never surpass us in our way of life or standard of living. They simply dont have the room, the power, or the will to do this.

europrince
08-18-2006, 12:26 AM
I've been to Europe. Standard of living has nothing to do with how many lattes you drink and whether you have them on a beach, patio or office desk. It has to do with personal and national wealth, and the growth rate of that wealth. In that, North America exceeds Europe.

Second, China isn't communist. Its a dictatorship. Its totalitarian. Communism, for all intents and purposes is dead. China is developing some sort of market economy. Market economies cannot exist within communism, where the State provides all.

sirex
08-18-2006, 12:40 AM
for china to become a free market econonmy first it will have to self destruct. Then after the civil war is done then they can rebuild and try to out think us with their new market order. no country emerges from tolatariesm unscathed facing zero repurcussions.

so what will happen is when China is plunged iinto civil war, we will take our mass manufacturing to India. And we will have this same conversation in 20 years about India taking over.. But then India will have civil war with Pakistan and Bangladesh.. then we will go to the Philipines. and on on on on on.

Its a stupid economic cycle... You know that economies eventually balance them selves. That no one nation can totally take over the market. Its impossible for 1 nation to be specialized in everything and be good at everything. And so as long as this holds true there will always be trade and an economy that balances itself out.