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View Full Version : E36 325 Engine Turbo'd With 8 PSI... Fast Or Not?


Mitch555
04-26-2006, 11:58 PM
Need some input on this guys. Would you say it would be fast or meh... not really? I know there is other aspects like diff... tuning... piping... tires... blah blah blah... but generally speaking. Car is 5 speed also. This setup will be in an E36.

Furious
04-27-2006, 12:28 AM
will it be fast? in a word yes. your car would be as fast if not faster than my car.

Mitch555
04-27-2006, 01:08 AM
will it be fast? in a word yes. your car would be as fast if not faster than my car.

But you have a S50 (240hp/225Tq) and a supercharger at 8 psi, and I will have a (189hp/181tq?) . You have more engine power to begin with. How would I be same/possibly faster? Is it cuz the supercharger is belt driven and you loose hp that way? Do explain PREEZ!

Justin e36
04-27-2006, 01:19 AM
General rule of thumb is 10% performance loss with a supercharger.

Furious
04-27-2006, 01:22 AM
General rule of thumb is 10% performance loss with a supercharger.

exactly, the efficiency of a turbo really does make a huge difference.

Striker
04-27-2006, 01:30 AM
Turbo design and effiency has come along way and all the old lag issues have been hugely reduced. Turbo matching is the key to any turbo application. Most fools sorry, certified idiots spend tons of money buying and installing a huge 500HP turbo on their car thinking it will produce 500HP. They dont realize that it will only deliver 50HP by the time the poor engine was reving at 6K to get it to begin spooling.

With a well matched turbo, you can have "almost" no lag, been there done it.

Striker
04-27-2006, 02:05 AM
Need some input on this guys. Would you say it would be fast or meh... not really? I know there is other aspects like diff... tuning... piping... tires... blah blah blah... but generally speaking. Car is 5 speed also. This setup will be in an E36.

To answer your question 8psi on your car with a properly matched turbo and components will be more than you can ever imangine.

325isRED
04-27-2006, 04:31 AM
General rule of thumb is 10% performance loss with a supercharger.

please elaborate on this statement...

SickFinga
04-27-2006, 04:38 AM
will it be fast? in a word yes. your car would be as fast if not faster than my car.

It wont be a here is a proof

SC M3 8psi (ODBI)
http://aatuning.com/dyno/dynoplot/97_M3_vs_97_M3_SC8psi.jpg
282.6 HP @ 6500 RPM
262.4 Ft-Lbs @ 3750 RPM


Turbo M3 at 8.5psi (ODBII)
http://aatuning.com/dyno/dynoplot/97M3Turbo%20vs%2000%20M5.jpg
300.5 HP @ 6750.0 RPM
286.9 ft-lbs @ 3250.0 RPM


Turbo M3 at 7psi (ODBI)
http://www.activeautowerke.com/dyno/dynoplot/95M3_vs_95M3_7psi.jpg
284.8 HP @ 5750 RPM
288.2 ft-lbs @ 4250 RPM



EDIT, for some reason, I thought you were talking about 6psi on MSN when I said it will be somewhere in between e36 m3 and e46 m3 fast.
With 8psi, id say as fast as e46 m3, maybe slightly faster. But no, it wont be as fast as 8psi SC S50

Furious
04-27-2006, 05:22 AM
hard to say, thats only AA's SC, there are other options out there, i mean really we cant compare unless we know exactly what turbo and setup he plans to run. 8 psi is just a number without knowing the size of the turbo and its components. i think he would be just as fast if not faster than an e46M3 im pretty sure my car is faster than one.

SickFinga
04-27-2006, 05:54 AM
hard to say, thats only AA's SC, there are other options out there, i mean really we cant compare unless we know exactly what turbo and setup he plans to run. 8 psi is just a number without knowing the size of the turbo and its components. i think he would be just as fast if not faster than an e46M3 im pretty sure my car is faster than one.

Yeah I know psi alone doesnt mean anything, but we are talking about basic kits here on a stock engine, and if you compare AA, RMS, Dinan, VF, ESS etc kits, results are very similar.

Mitch555
04-28-2006, 01:54 AM
Well... The turbo I am most likely gonna run is a KKK-27 (rebuilt) from a Porsche. It should spool up around 3000RPM. I was told it should be about 250rwhp and should be able to keep up with E46 M3's no problem... and it might even be faster.

thinair
04-28-2006, 01:57 AM
General rule of thumb is 10% performance loss with a supercharger.
Correction, on a centrifugal supercharger. Positive displacement blowers are a lot more efficient, which is why Mercedes, VW, etc, etc have used them.

Even a turbo requires power to spin the turbine to create boost, obviously no where near as much as a belt driven compressor though.

Darkness95m3
04-28-2006, 09:03 AM
Need some input on this guys. Would you say it would be fast or meh... not really? I know there is other aspects like diff... tuning... piping... tires... blah blah blah... but generally speaking. Car is 5 speed also. This setup will be in an E36.

All depends on the setup. Most of the tuners that sell kits spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to perfect their product.

However there is no reason that you could produce your own kit.

My suggestion is do lot's of research also the most important is the software tuning. Give MarkD a call when it comes to software tuning.
He is an honest and awesome individual to deal with.

Mitch555
04-28-2006, 09:37 PM
All depends on the setup. Most of the tuners that sell kits spend hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars to perfect their product.

However there is no reason that you could produce your own kit.

My suggestion is do lot's of research also the most important is the software tuning. Give MarkD a call when it comes to software tuning.
He is an honest and awesome individual to deal with.

You're right. Too many factors. If I go with 325 + turbo the tuner is a good one and the turbo kit pulls well supposedly on a 325... tried ans tested already. I'll let you guys know how it goes if I go this route. Anybody else wanna comment on this? Fast or meh?

SickFinga
04-28-2006, 11:01 PM
Well... The turbo I am most likely gonna run is a KKK-27 (rebuilt) from a Porsche. It should spool up around 3000RPM. I was told it should be about 250rwhp and should be able to keep up with E46 M3's no problem... and it might even be faster.

Yes, 250rwhp is about right.
But if I were you I'd go with 3.0l than 2.5l + turbo.
Not gonna be as fast, but more potential down the road with better resale value.

Mitch555
04-28-2006, 11:19 PM
Yes, 250rwhp is about right.
But if I were you I'd go with 3.0l than 2.5l + turbo.
Not gonna be as fast, but more potential down the road with better resale value.

Trust me on this..... I threw the whole "Resale Value" thing out the window a long time ago. I don't care about my resale value. I never worry bout it. But my car is done with quality mods. I just do things to my car that are tasteful and to my liking. I just like the fact that I will be turbo. Hearing a *PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST* as I drive by is more pimp than just an M3 engine. *shiner* Also I don't race. Just need something fast. I can make the 325 REALLY fast if I wish to anyhow.

SickFinga
04-29-2006, 12:36 AM
Trust me on this..... I threw the whole "Resale Value" thing out the window a long time ago. I don't care about my resale value. I never worry bout it. But my car is done with quality mods. I just do things to my car that are tasteful and to my liking. I just like the fact that I will be turbo. Hearing a *PSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST* as I drive by is more pimp than just an M3 engine. *shiner* Also I don't race. Just need something fast. I can make the 325 REALLY fast if I wish to anyhow.


Anyway, out of your all ideas on how to make your car fast, turbo 325 with 8psi is my second least favorite, turbo 320 being number one.

But it is your car, so do what you want.

And to answer your question, will it be fast?

In my opinion NO, it won't be fast, but it is subjectional, since fast car to me, is something under 12sec 1/4mile

And 250rwhp e36 is going to be in low 13th. In today's world, its definitly not fast.

Furious
04-29-2006, 01:30 AM
im kinda on the fence about this. i think im leaning toward just doing the 325 turbo thing. its solid, less money and pretty damn fast. how much faster you want to be? i really have trouble finding places to really go fast with my setup. its nice that i have it, but for the money i probably would have done the same thing.. 325 with turbo , but i really didnt think about FI untill literally 4 months ago. i spent more than i wanted to but thats only because things pop out of no were sometimes.

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 06:41 AM
Anyway, out of your all ideas on how to make your car fast, turbo 325 with 8psi is my second least favorite, turbo 320 being number one.

But it is your car, so do what you want.

And to answer your question, will it be fast?

In my opinion NO, it won't be fast, but it is subjectional, since fast car to me, is something under 12sec 1/4mile

And 250rwhp e36 is going to be in low 13th. In today's world, its definitly not fast.


I think 250rwhp is enough fun to play with in an E36 when you are not worried about racing or worried about those extra .8seconds you could loose to be faster on 1/4 or whatever. Everyone has their own view on fast but to me... I don't race and am not anal about those low 12sec times.

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 06:44 AM
im kinda on the fence about this. i think im leaning toward just doing the 325 turbo thing. its solid, less money and pretty damn fast. how much faster you want to be? i really have trouble finding places to really go fast with my setup. its nice that i have it, but for the money i probably would have done the same thing.. 325 with turbo , but i really didnt think about FI untill literally 4 months ago. i spent more than i wanted to but thats only because things pop out of no were sometimes.

I'm surprised you didn't go Turbo. I personally don't like superchargers much... I'm nore of a Turbo fan. That is why I wanna do the turbo thaaaaang, plus it's more fun and sounds hot. :P

You think you'll switch later on down the road?

thinair
04-29-2006, 01:20 PM
250rwhp is a 3.2L M3 engine with a cam kit, it'll drive better and be 1000x more reliable.

BMW_7
04-29-2006, 02:14 PM
I'm one of those people that like to install it and forget about it, that is why I'm very happy with my sc.. Plus, I can drive it daily with no problem, I even drove it in the winter for a bit.

Obviously, by your standards, my car is slow (similar to 328 acceleration wise)
But it's very fun to drive and I think it's the sound of it that really got me...

I think you should mod your 320 engine, Mitch, I mean, you'd be the only one with it.

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 02:14 PM
250rwhp is a 3.2L M3 engine with a cam kit, it'll drive better and be 1000x more reliable.

I think my set-up will be a little faster than a cammed up 3.2litre. I still don't believe that the cammed up 3.2 will give you 300hp engine hp. 280hp at the most.

I have plans on raising the boost for next year tho.

thinair
04-29-2006, 02:23 PM
If you're going to turbo, get at least a 2.8L, they have forged cranks.

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 02:42 PM
I think you should mod your 320 engine, Mitch, I mean, you'd be the only one with it.

I was seriously thinking doing this, but how much faster would I be than a stock 320? Plus I won't have as much torque to begin with. I don't think a 320 engine has much potential to go fast unless I drop A-LOT of money for internals. Plus I'm getting the 325 for cheap, and it has more torque and is closer to being near an m3 engine power wise. 325's have a lot of potential to be made really fast with a turbo anyhow.

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 03:00 PM
If you're going to turbo, get at least a 2.8L, they have forged cranks.

Hmmmm... I don't have any access to any 328 for a good price right now. Plus it's not cheap to change it over to OBD1, I might as well wait for a 3litre m3 engine instead for the money I'd put in changing over a 328 to OBD1. Also, I am already doing a lot of things to my car so it's already expensive enough for this year. :)

propr'one
04-29-2006, 03:07 PM
buy me an s52 and a m52 will be right on the market:D

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 03:12 PM
buy me an s52 and a m52 will be right on the market:D

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT!!!!

_DIESEL_
04-29-2006, 03:21 PM
With 8spi you will be pleased with your car just a better feeling then a N/A 250hp motor.

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 03:24 PM
With 8spi you will be pleased with your car just a better feeling then a N/A 250hp motor.

That is what I figured. It will be way more fun to drive than a 250rwhp N/A motor.

propr'one
04-29-2006, 06:10 PM
ricer's with your BOV's





:D

still not considering playing with the stock internals on your 320?

thinair
04-29-2006, 08:06 PM
With 8spi you will be pleased with your car just a better feeling then a N/A 250hp motor.
Explain this please. What better feeling?

Justin e36
04-29-2006, 08:51 PM
Correction, on a centrifugal supercharger. Positive displacement blowers are a lot more efficient, which is why Mercedes, VW, etc, etc have used them.

Even a turbo requires power to spin the turbine to create boost, obviously no where near as much as a belt driven compressor though.

Correction noted. :)

b_w.
04-29-2006, 09:05 PM
go for the turbo 325! if you do your setup like an aa kit you could get tuning from them. your other option is a standalone ecu like the tec3. 325's have lots of potential. just the other day on bf.c there was a turbo 325 that made over 400whp at 18psi with 91 octane and a .140 cometic headgasket. i think it was with a sc-61 turbo.

SickFinga
04-29-2006, 10:05 PM
With 8spi you will be pleased with your car just a better feeling then a N/A 250hp motor.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree on that.
In my opinion, 250rwhp NA car > 250rwhp FI car.

SickFinga
04-29-2006, 10:07 PM
Hmmmm... I don't have any access to any 328 for a good price right now. Plus it's not cheap to change it over to OBD1, I might as well wait for a 3litre m3 engine instead for the money I'd put in changing over a 328 to OBD1. Also, I am already doing a lot of things to my car so it's already expensive enough for this year. :)


You have this in your sig yourself


Originally Posted by Mystikal
just do it once, do it right.


Anyway, if you want to be the envy of the whole Maxbimmer, 3.0l + TwinScrew (I know its super exepesive, but damn its so god damn sweet *mw* *mw* *mw* )

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 10:43 PM
You have this in your sig yourself

Anyway, if you want to be the envy of the whole Maxbimmer, 3.0l + TwinScrew (I know its super exepesive, but damn its so god damn sweet *mw* *mw* *mw* )

Ah yes... someone finally related what I was talking about in this thread to Mystikal's quote under my sig. There are so many factors in doing it once and right. I could do an M5 engine in my car and people could call it right also but that is a RETARDED amount of cash. To me... I am doing it right but trying to not tear me a new asshole at the same time even tho it is still expensive the way I am going. Just cuz I'm not buying a $10,000USD turbo kit doens't mean I am not doing it right. 325 engine has enough potential to be really fast. I don't need more than 300rwhp in my car. That is more than enough for my type of driving so why would I need a 3litre with twinscrew? To waste money? I don't even like superchargers to begin with.

SickFinga
04-29-2006, 10:57 PM
Ah yes... someone finally related what I was talking about in this thread to Mystikal's quote under my sig. There are so many factors in doing it once and right. I could do an M5 engine in my car and people could call it right also but that is a RETARDED amount of cash. To me... I am doing it right but trying to not tear me a new asshole at the same time even tho it is still expensive the way I am going. Just cuz I'm not buying a $10,000USD turbo kit doens't mean I am not doing it right. 325 engine has enough potential to be really fast. I don't need more than 300rwhp in my car. That is more than enough for my type of driving so why would I need a 3litre with twinscrew? To waste money? I don't even like superchargers to begin with.


I never said that Turbo 325 doesnt have potential.
But I my opinion budget tuning never going to be right. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my belief.

And why do you prefer Turbo over twinscrew superchargers?
Twinscrew is much better than turbo, PERIOD. Especially when you said it yourself, you just want 300rwhp. With your setup, Twinscrew supercharger is way, way better than turbo. Even turbo biased guys wont deny that.
Just because Turbo has this "pssssssssssssssssssssh" sound.
Well considering that every stock WRX and GTI has it, its not that cool anymore.

Mitch555
04-29-2006, 11:36 PM
I never said that Turbo 325 doesnt have potential.
But I my opinion budget tuning never going to be right. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my belief.

And why do you prefer Turbo over twinscrew superchargers?
Twinscrew is much better than turbo, PERIOD. Especially when you said it yourself, you just want 300rwhp. With your setup, Twinscrew supercharger is way, way better than turbo. Even turbo biased guys wont deny that.
Just because Turbo has this "pssssssssssssssssssssh" sound.
Well considering that every stock WRX and GTI has it, its not that cool anymore.

I know you never said that 325 with turbo doesn't have potential but I just wanted to state that. It's not really budjet tuning as I am still spending more money to do it right to work properly and safely.

I have been in a few cars that have Turbo's and a few that have Superchargers... I always liked being in the Turbo cars cuz the full boost just throws you back all at once rather than slowly building up like a supercharger throughout the rpm range. And Yes the "PSSSSST" from the BOV on a turbo sounds like sex. I know that a twinscrew is nice but I hate all other superchargers. But twinscrew is tearage of a new asshole. They are rediculously priced for our older cars.

I don't care what other people think of me or my car cuz I don't care what is cooler. :) Whatever I like, I do to my car!

thinair
04-30-2006, 03:16 AM
And Yes the "PSSSSST" from the BOV on a turbo sounds like sex.

It only sounds like sex because that sound is the new status quo in modding. Tractor trailers and buses have been making that sound from purging air brakes for decades and no one has ever busted a nut over it.

You don't plow your gf with the '101 BOV sounds on cd' playing in the background do you? :P

What do you want exactly here, numbers, bragging rights, low price, performance, what???

You can't get bored of power you don't even have yet. In my opinion, get a 3L M3 engine, install it, drive it, have fun with it. Once you're bored with it, do it up, either a cam kit, or FI. Not everything needs to be done at once right.

Personally I don't see why you'd even consider swapping a 2.5L into your 320. It'd be a waste of money in a sense. FI isn't cheap as you know, why screw around with a turbo on a displacement limited engine. You'll start turning up the boost kicking yourself on why you just didn't get the larger engine at the beginning. There seems to be a noticable difference between the FI'd 2.5 or 3L, and mainly in torque. Hell, I have no doubt in my mind that you hit +300hp from a turbo'd 2L, but that's just a number, with a narrow powerband and no torque who cares right?

If it were my money, it'd be an OBD1 2.8 or 3.2L and leave it alone. Then in the future worry about more power. For example, +600rwhp is possible from a turbo'd yet stock internal'd 2.8L engine, it's been proven. +300rwft-lbs is possible from a supercharged 3.2L. BMW V8 swaps aren't cost effecive for the power gained, even if the engine was free.

My 2 cents i guess...

_DIESEL_
04-30-2006, 05:21 PM
Explain this please. What better feeling?


With the proper turbo size if you don't go like rest of the guys with hondas that slap on the turbo that's bigger then their motor and then you have to waith for it to spool up at 8000 rpm. My car has 10spi at 2500rpm almost no lag.

I did a pull with a buddy of mine that has a 13.2 qurter mile mustang

3rd gear from 2500 rpm by the time i was at 6500 i was long gone
but when we went from 4000 rpm till i hit my rev limiter i barly pulled on him and barly was like a bumper. He makes he's peak power at high rpm
let's say my car makes 250rwhp and onother bimmer makes 250hp
my car at let's say 3500 will make more power then an n/a car if i'm rong correct me.
Boosted car will be more fun to play with in a long run.

And If Mitch acually wants to go crazy on the car after he gets the turbo

He can always get more power out of if then a N/A motor

SickFinga
04-30-2006, 11:10 PM
With the proper turbo size if you don't go like rest of the guys with hondas that slap on the turbo that's bigger then their motor and then you have to waith for it to spool up at 8000 rpm. My car has 10spi at 2500rpm almost no lag.

I did a pull with a buddy of mine that has a 13.2 qurter mile mustang

3rd gear from 2500 rpm by the time i was at 6500 i was long gone
but when we went from 4000 rpm till i hit my rev limiter i barly pulled on him and barly was like a bumper. He makes he's peak power at high rpm
let's say my car makes 250rwhp and onother bimmer makes 250hp
my car at let's say 3500 will make more power then an n/a car if i'm rong correct me.
Boosted car will be more fun to play with in a long run.

And If Mitch acually wants to go crazy on the car after he gets the turbo

He can always get more power out of if then a N/A motor


I cant find a dyno graph for Turbo 325.

I dont know how your car doesn't get any lag and 10psi at 2500 here is the graphs I made from using AA's dyno info

Turbo 7.5psi M3 vs SC 8psi M3

http://maxbimmer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59335&stc=1&d=1146449348


SC M3 has more HP or Torque upto 3900rpm's, after that Turbo gets the lead and then after 6100 SC car takes the lead again.

If you compare Turbo M3 to a stock M3 at lower RPMs turbo car actually loses HP.
http://www.activeautowerke.com/dyno/dynoplot/textdata/95M3_vs_95M3_7psi.pdf


So yeah, even if you use properly sized turbo it will never be as linear as SC or NA car.

But I agree with you, if you want 500+ hp, Turbo is the only way to go on out engines.

b_w.
04-30-2006, 11:18 PM
http://www.icsperformance.com/Craig-325.jpg

325 turbo

thinair
04-30-2006, 11:25 PM
^^ that's great if you only drive between 5000-7000rpm.

_DIESEL_
05-01-2006, 11:44 AM
I tottaly agree with you my turbo is farly small it's a t3/t4 that's why i barly have any lag but the dyno graph is made of what turbo size that's why i said proper size turbo. Usually people put big turbos because they think bigger is better not always. With n/a car you don't have that much to play with s/c you limiter to some psi 15 or 18 max untill it can't flow any more CFM , turbo just trow out the old one and slap on little bigger if you need more boost right turbo these days are cheap this way he'll have more room to play with and this way it can make the most power.

paul
05-01-2006, 04:03 PM
Listen my car is a 325 with 10psi i made 460 to the crank. If that helps in any way. just bc its a 325 or 328 dosent mean u cant make big hp u just have to rum more boost. NO big deal

SickFinga
05-02-2006, 02:08 AM
Listen my car is a 325 with 10psi i made 460 to the crank. If that helps in any way. just bc its a 325 or 328 dosent mean u cant make big hp u just have to rum more boost. NO big deal

To be honest, I'm having hared time believing this.
What kind of engine work you've done?

AA kitted stage II M3 does 460hp at the crank, and thats on 14psi.

Furious
05-02-2006, 03:21 AM
i thought he was running a GT35r.. it will create some big numbers.

b_w.
05-02-2006, 07:57 AM
To be honest, I'm having hared time believing this.
What kind of engine work you've done?

AA kitted stage II M3 does 460hp at the crank, and thats on 14psi.

aa kits are junk. outdated and over priced. gt35r 328's make around 450whp on 12-14 psi.

SickFinga
05-02-2006, 08:52 AM
What difference does it make? Why one turbo will give you more HP than another with the same PSIs?
Not doubting you, I'm just clueless.

Here is a list of GT35T turboed cars
http://bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6404236&postcount=53

After seeing 2 cardcounter's results I decided to see how much his car would have at 10psi.
Here are cardcounter's results (328)

21psi - 543whp/512tq
25psi -635whp/574tq

thats 92rwhp from 4psi, or 23rwhp for each psi.
so if he would run 10psi, he would have 313rwhp


What do you think?

paul
05-02-2006, 09:52 AM
well how much is drive train loss add up 2?????? bc i ran 360 to the rearwheels at 10psi, so i added 25% to that to get my crank hp numbers, if that 25% is to high then sorry but i still ran 360 to the rear wheels, have it on tape if u would like to c it, plus u cant compare setups each car is different, also i am runnig higher comp then cardcounter, so 10psi at 9.5 comp is goign to make more then 10psi at 8.5, sp b4 u start calling b.s ask to find out what ppl r running thanx

paul
05-02-2006, 10:01 AM
Do u know why cardcounter makes so much Hp? Do you know why he dosent blow headgaskets? Do u Know why he runs such high boost to make hp numbers that an m3 would make at half the boost level? To be honest i have spoken to him and the guys at ics a number of times. You can not base all ur ideas or views on one setup, Until u strap ur car to the dyno and try things u have no idea, I dont mean to flame, just i am sick of ppl saying i heard or i read.

paul
05-02-2006, 10:01 AM
aa kits are junk. outdated and over priced. gt35r 328's make around 450whp on 12-14 psi.
and yes aa kits are shit i have been saying that 4 years*wave*

SickFinga
05-02-2006, 10:30 AM
well how much is drive train loss add up 2?????? bc i ran 360 to the rearwheels at 10psi, so i added 25% to that to get my crank hp numbers, if that 25% is to high then sorry but i still ran 360 to the rear wheels, have it on tape if u would like to c it, plus u cant compare setups each car is different, also i am runnig higher comp then cardcounter, so 10psi at 9.5 comp is goign to make more then 10psi at 8.5, sp b4 u start calling b.s ask to find out what ppl r running thanx
Drivetrain loss is 20%. Considering average M3 dynos at about 200rwhp.

Anyway, I really wasn't calling you claims BS, just seems 360rwhp out of 325 on just 10psi is kinda high.
Still what kind of engine work you got?

SickFinga
05-02-2006, 10:34 AM
Do u know why cardcounter makes so much Hp? Do you know why he dosent blow headgaskets? Do u Know why he runs such high boost to make hp numbers that an m3 would make at half the boost level? To be honest i have spoken to him and the guys at ics a number of times. You can not base all ur ideas or views on one setup, Until u strap ur car to the dyno and try things u have no idea, I dont mean to flame, just i am sick of ppl saying i heard or i read.

He is on race gas, Im sure he makes much less HP on pump gas. There was a thread on bf.c, another 328 dynoed on race and pump gas. I tried to find it, but couldn't.

I doubt M3 would make 630+rwhp at 12.5psi.

I'm not basing my ideas on his setup. In fact I think his setup is one of the craziest out there. I mean I dont know anyone making 20+rwhp out of 1psi.
That's the most extreme, so regular car would make much less.

But to be honest, I aslo think ICS numbers are not exactly true ;)

Axxe
05-02-2006, 11:33 AM
Vlad, a more efficient and modern turbocharger can flow more CFM's at the same PSI as an older, outdated turbo. That's were the power difference comes. Also, the new Garret's (with ball bearings) can spool up much faster, and with a proper compressor/turbine ratio you can almost elimitate turbo lag.

paul
05-02-2006, 04:50 PM
He is on race gas, Im sure he makes much less HP on pump gas. There was a thread on bf.c, another 328 dynoed on race and pump gas. I tried to find it, but couldn't.

I doubt M3 would make 630+rwhp at 12.5psi.

I'm not basing my ideas on his setup. In fact I think his setup is one of the craziest out there. I mean I dont know anyone making 20+rwhp out of 1psi.
That's the most extreme, so regular car would make much less.

But to be honest, I aslo think ICS numbers are not exactly true ;)
i never said an m3 could make that hp on 12 psi. but i do know of a m3 making 700 to the crank on 17psi *th-up*

paul
05-02-2006, 04:50 PM
He is on race gas, Im sure he makes much less HP on pump gas. There was a thread on bf.c, another 328 dynoed on race and pump gas. I tried to find it, but couldn't.

I doubt M3 would make 630+rwhp at 12.5psi.

I'm not basing my ideas on his setup. In fact I think his setup is one of the craziest out there. I mean I dont know anyone making 20+rwhp out of 1psi.
That's the most extreme, so regular car would make much less.

But to be honest, I aslo think ICS numbers are not exactly true ;)
i think the samething about ics numbers, but who knows :confused:

b_w.
05-02-2006, 06:45 PM
What difference does it make? Why one turbo will give you more HP than another with the same PSIs?
Not doubting you, I'm just clueless.

Here is a list of GT35T turboed cars
http://bimmerforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6404236&postcount=53

After seeing 2 cardcounter's results I decided to see how much his car would have at 10psi.
Here are cardcounter's results (328)

21psi - 543whp/512tq
25psi -635whp/574tq

thats 92rwhp from 4psi, or 23rwhp for each psi.
so if he would run 10psi, he would have 313rwhp


What do you think?

do a search. i am pretty sure there is a vid of him dynoing 440whp on 91.

thinair
05-02-2006, 06:49 PM
I don't understand why you guys still use a percentages for drivetrain losses.

Furious
05-02-2006, 09:18 PM
is there no way to really measure HP loss without taking the damn engine out and measuring crank hp and comparing to a dyno run with the engine in?

thinair
05-02-2006, 09:51 PM
Well, think of it this way Lets say a 190bhp dyno's at 170rwhp right. 20hp drive line loss, 12% loss or so.

Why would the same drivetrain at 357rwhp absorb 43hp all of a sudden for 400bhp (357 + 12%)? I understand there is more gear/bearing load on the drivetrain, but not over 100% more frictional loads.

My math skills suck, but still, you get the idea.

As a note, a 190hp e36 328i does dyno at 165-170rwhp (12-15% loss), hence the examples, M3's usually dyno at like 200-210, which is the same % loss, not 20%.

Furious
05-02-2006, 10:49 PM
i remember BidD's thread regarding that, i agree that it doesnt make sense but why does it seem that when people FI their car the kits say for instance 450crank hp, but when people dyno they only get like say 380wrhp. its an example and the numbers i made up, but wouldnt that almost constitute the claim that there is a drivetrain loss of 12-15% regardless of how much hp your car has?

but i have to agree with you Nelson it wouldnt make sense that a drivetrain will absorb the 12-15% if the HP went up and the drivetrain stayed the same.

_DIESEL_
05-03-2006, 04:15 PM
Listen my car is a 325 with 10psi i made 460 to the crank. If that helps in any way. just bc its a 325 or 328 dosent mean u cant make big hp u just have to rum more boost. NO big deal

At 11 or 12 psi with the good nice setup that flows good you can get 360rwhp if your running a m3 motor 3.2L with this displacment yes and if your head has over 95 %VE flow. but for a 2.5L motor I can't see 360rwhp at 10psi even if is sprayed.

paul
05-03-2006, 04:32 PM
http://maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57781&highlight=pauls+dyno

In this vid the car made 325 or so. We pushed the car more and i got 360 to the wheels. I have no need to bs anyone, U have to remember my car is still high comp. It all depends on how it is tunned and the risk u r willing to take,

Now that i think of it maybe we should race each other. That might change ur mind.

fukenricen
05-03-2006, 05:21 PM
lets set it up

_DIESEL_
05-03-2006, 05:52 PM
http://maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57781&highlight=pauls+dyno

In this vid the car made 325 or so. We pushed the car more and i got 360 to the wheels. I have no need to bs anyone, U have to remember my car is still high comp. It all depends on how it is tunned and the risk u r willing to take,

Now that i think of it maybe we should race each other. That might change ur mind.

Is this on a 2.5L motor or something bigger.

My compression is 10.2 right now so if your saying i should have over 400whp at 10 psi if in your opinion everything is in compression my motor is 2.8L so more displacment.

you have to be running a biger motor i havent looked at the video i'm at work can't view videos but i will when i get home.

b_w.
05-03-2006, 06:28 PM
Is this on a 2.5L motor or something bigger.

My compression is 10.2 right now so if your saying i should have over 400whp at 10 psi if in your opinion everything is in compression my motor is 2.8L so more displacment.

you have to be running a biger motor i havent looked at the video i'm at work can't view videos but i will when i get home.


what kind of setup do you have? i thought i read on bf.c that you you have the audspeed kit?

paul
05-04-2006, 08:03 AM
Hell no audspeed kit, And my motor is a 2.5 NON VANOS. Read up on what that motor can do then comment,

SickFinga
05-04-2006, 08:23 AM
Hell no audspeed kit, And my motor is a 2.5 NON VANOS. Read up on what that motor can do then comment,

What can it do??

It doesn't magically make more HP than 2.5 VANOS

paul
05-04-2006, 09:09 AM
First of it makes more hp. second it revs up more. hotter cams valve springs are different etc etc. just read up on it. I dont c the need to prove myself to anyone of u guys. I was upset witht the numbers i got. If u guys think i am full of shit so be it. Put ur shit together then c what urs can do. The fact is no one on this site has the setup i have or tried the shit i have, So when u do then i think ppl can comment until then u guys are just dreamers,,,,,,,,,

Has anyone ran 30psi on a non vanos motor. Thats is stock?????????????????????

SickFinga
05-04-2006, 09:25 AM
First of it makes more hp. second it revs up more. hotter cams valve springs are different etc etc. just read up on it.

I know all the difference between NON VANOS and VANOS engine.
I just dont see why non VANOS engine would make more HP than VANOS at the same boost.



I dont c the need to prove myself to anyone of u guys. I was upset witht the numbers i got. If u guys think i am full of shit so be it. Put ur shit together then c what urs can do.

No one said you are full of shit



Has anyone ran 30psi on a non vanos motor. Thats is stock?????????????????????

Didn't you blow your motor or I'm wrong?

paul
05-04-2006, 10:07 AM
nope my headgasket went, but thats the name of the game with bmws. Just ask cardcounter how many he has blown, i wont even sy the hp i ran at 30psi, u can ask tony...........

paul
05-04-2006, 10:10 AM
u have to remember that it is all in the tunning, if i run my motor to the limits with 10psi it is going to make good power, u have to remember all the aa chips and tunning run fat on fuel and timing retarded like an s.o.b, if i run more timing higher comp, i am going to make more power then some guy with 10psi on the same motor with low comp running a chip.

_DIESEL_
05-04-2006, 01:33 PM
nope my headgasket went, but thats the name of the game with bmws. Just ask cardcounter how many he has blown, i wont even sy the hp i ran at 30psi, u can ask tony...........

He only blew one and it was at 32psi plus he was running a 3.2l headgasket 87mm bore insted of the 85mm. but it does not matter all i said that is hard to bolieve that it can make that power at 10 psi because M3 barly make that power at 10 psi. I don't know whats so special about your motor you won't post up what's done to it or share any info. I can say right now my setup that i have right know and my 2.8l motor will not make not even close to 360whp at 10 psi and i'm running a full stanalone P8PRO no chip bs.

_DIESEL_
05-04-2006, 01:40 PM
what kind of setup do you have? i thought i read on bf.c that you you have the audspeed kit?

Yes i got that kit but had to fabricate alot of thinks to fit runnig only half of that kit manifold turbo and the pipes everything else has been changed.

paul
05-04-2006, 01:50 PM
He only blew one and it was at 32psi plus he was running a 3.2l headgasket 87mm bore insted of the 85mm. but it does not matter all i said that is hard to bolieve that it can make that power at 10 psi because M3 barly make that power at 10 psi. I don't know whats so special about your motor you won't post up what's done to it or share any info. I can say right now my setup that i have right know and my 2.8l motor will not make not even close to 360whp at 10 psi and i'm running a full stanalone P8PRO no chip bs.
What comp r u running?
Also I know about what kind of headgasket he was using i was using the sameone at one point...:idea:

_DIESEL_
05-04-2006, 02:11 PM
What comp r u running?
Also I know about what kind of headgasket he was using i was using the sameone at one point...:idea:

My compression is 10.2.1

I just did a calculation on your motor if you rev your motor to 7000 rpm at 10 psi with the head to flow 100% VE you can get 358 whp I guess that 2.5L head flows really good stock or its modded . but to get to 100 % with boost is hard

My motor if i could get the head to flow 100% it would make 401 whp at 10 psi but i already know that's not gonna happen since other people try it like cardcounter he dynoed 478 at 18 psi and it comes out the head flow is close to 100 % and his head is not stock.

fukenricen
05-04-2006, 02:12 PM
well paul i dont know if i have the hp at highboost but i do have the 400torque on cam since i think we were just mesuring the torque on the car.

_DIESEL_
05-04-2006, 03:55 PM
Paul
Is this your setup that ur running now i just saw this in the boosted check in forum

new setup
3.2 m3 engine converted to obd1
gt35r turbo
AA Manifold
AA stage 2 intercooler
custom 3'' ss turbo piping
custom 3'' ss v band exhust
greddy type s bov
turbosmart 35mm waste gate
AA water injection
550 injectors
areomotive fuel reg
2 external fuel pumps running off a external sump mounted under the car
stock in tank fuel pump
custom fuel rail
euro oil cooler with b&m oil cooler
clutch masters stage 4 clutch
1.40 headgasket
arp head studs
greedy boost controller
hks turbo timer
tec 3 r full standalone
custom motor mount
wide band


This would make alot of sence

paul
05-04-2006, 04:33 PM
and more i have changed alot. that headgasket is on the 3.2 motor not the non vanos motor

_DIESEL_
05-04-2006, 10:20 PM
Nice setup i guess your going for high numbers.
I'm getting the same headgasket i need more boost.
what was the highest boost you ran on your motor on pump gas

b_w.
05-05-2006, 12:23 AM
Hell no audspeed kit, And my motor is a 2.5 NON VANOS. Read up on what that motor can do then comment,

i did not mean you, but the other guy with the turbo 325.

paul
05-05-2006, 08:15 AM
Nice setup i guess your going for high numbers.
I'm getting the same headgasket i need more boost.
what was the highest boost you ran on your motor on pump gas
30psi only a hand full of times

_DIESEL_
05-06-2006, 10:07 AM
30psi only a hand full of times

I can't bolieve that these motors can take this much boost.

Did you do anything to your head or you left it stock. and if you don't mind pm me the numbers at 30 spi this number scares me.

b_w.
05-06-2006, 11:32 PM
I can't bolieve that these motors can take this much boost.

Did you do anything to your head or you left it stock. and if you don't mind pm me the numbers at 30 spi this number scares me.

or he could just post the dyno graphs*th-up*

_DIESEL_
05-07-2006, 03:24 PM
or he could just post the dyno graphs*th-up*

That would be nice