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donkeyto1
05-14-2005, 01:15 PM
Hi. I had some time to look at the new E90. Sorry I really do not like.
A few changes over the E46 but nothing that will make me go out and buy it. I feel it actually looks like a Japanese made vehicle, and a true family sedan that has lost it's sports sedan look. The rear end looks terrible.
Maybe a sportier set or rims will help. If I was in the car market I would be looking at the Infinity and Lexus. Actually line up all 3 vehicles in the same colour and I bet they would all look very similiar. Performance, handling and reliability is another factor. Can't comment on handling/performance but for reliability I would say Lexus all the way. (I come from a family of Toyota drivers)

I drive a 2002 325i with sports pack and would not make the change to the new. I'll change my summer rims this season, hopefully find a rim like below - to spice things up for the year. Later.

http://www.lexus.com/about/concept/lf-c_gallery_exterior_photos.html

tlaselva
05-14-2005, 02:03 PM
Infinity, Lexus...????

You are totally oblivious to the driving dynamics of a E90 BMW has to offer over any Infinity or Lexus.... :rolleyes:

jstalin
05-14-2005, 02:52 PM
Infinity, Lexus...????

You are totally oblivious to the driving dynamics of a E90 BMW has to offer over any Infinity or Lexus.... :rolleyes:

So am I, care to explain?

///MAC
05-14-2005, 02:58 PM
yea what does that mean, i know the bimmer has alot more to offer over those two other cars, but what do u mean by that donkeyto1 ????

aziz
05-14-2005, 03:25 PM
saw the e90 today, fom behind...looked like a civic needs to go on a diet, from the side, looked more jdm than euro, but i think it will look nice with kits/wheels, so far the kits i saw....ae no good.

i'll take the G35 sedan over this anyday.

SickFinga
05-14-2005, 04:31 PM
alll I can say
E90 Sedan > E46 Sedan

tlaselva
05-14-2005, 06:19 PM
So am I, care to explain?

It's like trying to explain what makes a Ferrari great.

There are a handful of cars costing much less that are numerically superior.
And there are people that would prefer the numerically superior vehicle.
These are the people that don't have the capacity to appreciate the finer and less obvious dynamics a Ferrari have to offer, or in your case, a BMW.

Either you get it, or you just don't.

And if you don't, then don't waste your money on a BMW, cuz it's lost to you.

Just my .02 cents.... *wiggle*

///MAC
05-14-2005, 06:28 PM
thats a good way to say it, very well sad....

Jordan
05-14-2005, 06:49 PM
It's like trying to explain what makes a Ferrari great.

There are a handful of cars costing much less that are numerically superior.
And there are people that would prefer the numerically superior vehicle.
These are the people that don't have the capacity to appreciate the finer and less obvious dynamics a Ferrari have to offer, or in your case, a BMW.

Either you get it, or you just don't.

And if you don't, then don't waste your money on a BMW, cuz it's lost to you.

Just my .02 cents.... *wiggle*

Ok, thats all fine and dandy. But what I think he is really getting at is this.

You can have a wonderfully driving car with more then ample power.

But if it still looks like a nasty e90, what is the point?

BMW no longer makes cars for the enthusiests. They make what stupid rich twits that want the next new thing want.

BMW hasn't made any decent cars since the e39 IMO.

tifosi
05-14-2005, 07:21 PM
Ok, thats all fine and dandy. But what I think he is really getting at is this.

You can have a wonderfully driving car with more then ample power.

But if it still looks like a nasty e90, what is the point?

BMW no longer makes cars for the enthusiests. They make what stupid rich twits that want the next new thing want.

BMW hasn't made any decent cars since the e39 IMO.

you simply don't marry a woman because she looks hot and has big boobs.

afterall, you will do most of the driving within a car, and i just don't think using exterior design to judge a car is fair.

Gamite
05-14-2005, 07:26 PM
saw the e90 today, fom behind...looked like a civic needs to go on a diet, from the side, looked more jdm than euro, but i think it will look nice with kits/wheels, so far the kits i saw....ae no good.

i'll take the G35 sedan over this anyday.


G35 sedan is nasty. G35 coupe on the other hand, is a nice car.





I haven't really had a good look at the new E90 yet, but if we're gonna compare lexus and infiniti to BMW, I would say Infiniti has the best competition, I'm sorry the IS300 does not look like its in the same league as G35 or 330.

If we're talking mid size sedan, Lexus still doesn't have anything on BMW with its GS series imo. But Infiniti's M45 might. Time will tell when more people review the car.

M3ti Compact
05-14-2005, 07:31 PM
Why judge the car by it's looks. Go and drive one- I doubt anyone would be disappointed- I have yet to read any reviews in which they didn't say this car's driving dynamics is the best out there. BMW has NOT forgotten their enthusiast following.

I went to the dealer today to see if I could test one, but test drives have been booked solid a for the rest of the week!

If you have one of them older BMW's for it's looks, don't kid yourselves- everyone I've talked to (non-enthusiasts young and old alike) think that the E30, E36, E38, E39 and older look dated- all these models need some form of bodykit to even come close to the style of the new models. Stock form? Forgettaboutit.

I know most of you want BMW to build you a 3 based on the original 3's philosophy- a stripped out, lightweight, cheap, RWD road handling machine. Try to imagine a modern interpretation of one. Would people really buy it? Or would it just serve to cheapen BMW's image? Sure- they will sell a handful, but even if they did make it, you'll probably end up getting one with the power leather seats, full carpeting with mats, the 6-cylinder, the sunroof, a radio, satnav, A/C etc anyways. The 3 series hasn't been following the original 3's philosophy for over 20 years. Why start complaining about it now?

Jordan
05-14-2005, 08:26 PM
None of you guys seem to grasp the point here. I would try to explain, but you would again miss the point and further try to stress how cool the new cars are in your opinion.

The higher end e34 for example is a timeless design. It has aged very well IMO. So has the later plastic bumper e30's.

Non-M e36's look like shit, particularly the Ti's.

E38's are still a very handsome car, particularly an optioned out 750iL with the factory aero and the M-Parallels.

I have yet to see anything new coming from BMW that looks like a BMW. Lets face it all the lines and design queues that make a BMW are gone. Nothing remains except for the horridly bastardized kidneys.

Has anyone here that actually worked for a dealer seen the sales figures of the new BMW's? They are all down significantly from the last line of cars they sold a few years ago.

The problem with M3ti Compact and many others here is that they seem to think NEW = BEST. This just isn't the case.

Personally I have driven a e90, and also a e65. Both felt boring, dead, detached from the road, and overly bland. I can't drive a car like that. I don't care how many lbs of stupid worthless electronics and creature comforts they cram into the car.. that doesn't make it a good car.

SickFinga
05-14-2005, 08:30 PM
Has anyone here that actually worked for a dealer seen the sales figures of the new BMW's? They are all down significantly from the last line of cars they sold a few years ago.

Never worked at BMW, but BMW claims that sales are higher than ever

Jordan
05-14-2005, 08:31 PM
The dealers around me have a large surplus of new 5's, 6's, and 7's as well as X3's. They are sitting on the lot like turds in a litter box.

BMW_7
05-14-2005, 08:44 PM
I agree with Jordan Here. I mean look at the BMW 2002's and the Bavaria's and 1500's. They look like BMWs. they have that clean understated look. Sure they don't look like BMW's of the 80's and 90's but you gotta remember they were made 40 years ago, and they STILL look more like BMWs than what is coming out now.

The 80's and 90's showed a clear continuation of this trend. Cars were clean, shared most of the design elements, that we've all come to love, Flap door handles, that line going through the door handles, the rear window swoop and the intimidating yet beautiful front ends which were all alike: twin headlamps and the kidney grilles: NO INDICATORS ABOVE the light or SHIT looking dashboard or BUTCHERED side profile lines...or whatever the hell Bangle came up with.

It's all true, it just looks like it's not important to you people. But I bought a BMW for its whole package and styling has a lot to do with it. I mean. Look - ACS and Hamann can't even come out with good kits, because their job has already done by Bangle. And ACS comes out with garbage looking kits now while before they brought out the lines of the cars that had to be brought out...

I will never buy another new BMW again. Even though I did not drive them yet, I just don't want to come close to get into one, which I think just says enough.

BMW_7
05-14-2005, 08:48 PM
good looking

http://www.m535i.org/gallery/e28pics4/Walt88-535i.jpg

http://home.kc.rr.com/brainstorm/M5_E34_s.jpg

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/r/drk150/soapbox/m51.jpg

This looks like turd and its lines don't like each other

http://www.fantasycars.com/gallery/Cars/BMW/2005%20E60%20M5/bmw_m5_e602.jpg

Which one doesn't belong? I think we can all see which one.........

M3ti Compact
05-14-2005, 10:45 PM
As sweet as this car might be http://www.m535i.org/gallery/e28pics4/Walt88-535i.jpg

I wonder if you would pick up more girls driving that than a new model.

Alezone
05-14-2005, 10:58 PM
new cars are not necessarily better, but i do think the e90 will do everything better than the e46 and other previous gens.

BMW_7: of the pictures you posted above, ONLY the e39 and the new 5er look good. And e60 > e39. The e60 has the most beautiful lines out of all the new designs. (except for the front grilles)

And to be honest, i HATED how bmw looked, the older style grilles are fugly. They are outdated.

Then again, whatever floats your boat, everyone has different perspective when looking at / buying a vehicle. To me, newer, most of the time, is better.

mkgino
05-14-2005, 11:13 PM
http://img66.echo.cx/img66/5704/walt88535icopy4mk.jpg

BMW_7
05-15-2005, 12:13 AM
At least a ti looks better than a e90 or the e60........IMO...

It looks like a BMW should.

jeffrie
05-15-2005, 12:20 AM
IMO. BMW had great syling and slaes becuase they never left their roots just kept improving what worked (ageless). Now seem to be gambeling on stupid people who what something to stan out in with the "name brand" to be bling,bling. Bling has taken over priority as to what they were designed to do, geuss the original desighners are all dead/retired. I myself am going back to VW (perferably porsche) when my current Bimmer dies simply becuase by then, the only one's I want would have long been rusted out or not for sale becuase of their old worth.
See this as only the biginning of something worse.

Alezone
05-15-2005, 12:59 AM
... I cannot genuinely beleive you own yours to... its a base base model 318Ti, the BMW for a man that cannot afford a whole BMW!

you suck saying so.

Jordan
05-15-2005, 01:01 AM
you suck saying so.

A fabulous comment. If only it made sense or had a inkling of validity.

///MAC
05-15-2005, 01:05 AM
The dealers around me have a large surplus of new 5's, 6's, and 7's as well as X3's. They are sitting on the lot like turds in a litter box.


in my area, they have very few on the lot, most of them are selling like hot cakes, i see many x3s and alot more 6's around now more then ever,,,,

tlaselva
05-15-2005, 01:28 AM
Ok, thats all fine and dandy. But what I think he is really getting at is this.

You can have a wonderfully driving car with more then ample power.

But if it still looks like a nasty e90, what is the point?

BMW no longer makes cars for the enthusiests. They make what stupid rich twits that want the next new thing want.

BMW hasn't made any decent cars since the e39 IMO.

Looks nasty?
Why is the exterior look so important to you?
Do you buy a car to look at and ogle it, or do you buy a car cuz of the pleasure you derive from driving a fine tuned auto like a BMW????
And looks are subjective. B/C you don't like it, doesn't make it a bad car...

And yes, their cars are made for the enthusiast, but also made for the MAJORITY of the general public, that want all the luxury amenities like power windows, seats, etc.
Remember the E36 M3 LTW?
BMW attempted to cater to the 'enthusiast', and what happened?
Even with the low quantities that they made, they just sat in the lots. The Dealers had to let them go below invoice just to get rid of them.
You won't see BMW make that mistake again.

And yes, BMW is making autos for 'stupid rich twats', cuz there the ones that can afford them.
Guess if you owned BMW, you'd make expensive cars for the poor people??? :confused:
Methinks you need to take some Economic & Business courses before you presume to tell BMW how to target their cliental.

jeffrie
05-15-2005, 01:43 AM
BMW attempted to cater to the 'enthusiast', and what happened?


The M3,5,6,7.

jeffrie
05-15-2005, 01:50 AM
You won't see BMW make that mistake again.

That's unfortunatly true I'm sure.

lvan
05-15-2005, 05:29 AM
I think BMW is just as Nike shoes. They got bunch of people buying their cars nuts and it cant get any better.They got new designer that helps them create more sales just like with these new models. I have a magazine about E90 and the car looks oki but I do have to admit that I would take over "face lifted" E39 over new 5er.No offence but new 5er looks very cheap inside out opposed to E39 like a tank. *th-up*

Darkness95m3
05-15-2005, 09:13 AM
I love BMW's however I'm not to excited with the new designs. Having said that if I have to buy a new car no matter how ugly it would be. I would still buy the BMW.

donkeyto1
05-15-2005, 12:12 PM
tlaselva,
sounds like you have driven the new lexus & infinity models and compared to the E90. Tell us about it. As I said above I can't comment on performance and handling because I have not test driven the new Infinity, but would I consider it and lexus as an option. I feel that the new E90 has very litte change vs the E46 and not enough to change over. Push button start option? That does not get me excited. The look of the vehicle does not get me excited. So why buy over the E46?

Oblivious - I say no..... I would say a value shopper that's looking for the best value, performance, and balance that appeals to me at this stage of my life.(big point here)

I think Ferrari's are beautiful vehicles, but I enjoy my house more.

Big flashy boobs certainly make you look. You want to pick up the book and read it based on the cover.... or talk to it and hope it comes with a brain. You give it a chance or maybe I should say she gives you a chance. : )

As stated earlier would not switch from a E46 to a E90. I've driven both. Easy decision for "me." Later

NOTORIOUS VR
05-15-2005, 02:24 PM
None of you guys seem to grasp the point here. I would try to explain, but you would again miss the point and further try to stress how cool the new cars are in your opinion.

And you are trying to force uppon others YOUR oppinion as to why BMW's aren't a drivers car anymore. So whats the difference?

The higher end e34 for example is a timeless design. It has aged very well IMO. So has the later plastic bumper e30's.

So you're telling me that the cars need to have the nicer bumpers to make the car have a timeless design? Sorry but IMO you are wrong. It's the cars shape that makes it timeless not it's bumpers and rims which the higher end cars have. A good looking car doesn't depend on "extras" to look good.

Non-M e36's look like shit, particularly the Ti's.

That's your oppinion, but it doesn't mean that you're right.

E38's are still a very handsome car, particularly an optioned out 750iL with the factory aero and the M-Parallels.

I agree it is a very nice looking car, but so is the current 7 series.

I have yet to see anything new coming from BMW that looks like a BMW. Lets face it all the lines and design queues that make a BMW are gone. Nothing remains except for the horridly bastardized kidneys.

I think Bangle did a good job on everything except for the X3. But then again some people might like the X3, but thats a matter of taste. But it doesn't make it any less of a BMW. The cars that BMW has in this generation are just as much a BMW as the older ones you love so much.

Has anyone here that actually worked for a dealer seen the sales figures of the new BMW's? They are all down significantly from the last line of cars they sold a few years ago.

That's not what BMW seems to say.

The problem with M3ti Compact and many others here is that they seem to think NEW = BEST. This just isn't the case.

M3ti? There never was such a thing. The highest Ti there was, was a 323Ti in europe. And it was considered a little "hot rod" by european standards.

Personally I have driven a e90, and also a e65. Both felt boring, dead, detached from the road, and overly bland. I can't drive a car like that. I don't care how many lbs of stupid worthless electronics and creature comforts they cram into the car.. that doesn't make it a good car.

So makes a good car in your oppinion? You took an old E30, stripped it down and compleatly rebuilt it with a new motor, the euro M-Tech II kit, and whatever else you did to it. That's great, but you drive an 80's car, you can't compare it to a 21st century car. Imagine BMW still built cars like the E30 today... They'd be broke.

I love the E30 just as much as you do, when I was living in Germany I owned 2 of them one of which was an '88 with the factory M-Tech II kit, it was my absolute favourite car of which I've owned. And I plan on owning another again soon now that I'm in Canada. But the hatred you have for the new BMW's isn't justified in anyway. Saying that BMW doesn't make cars for the enthusiast is compleatly wrong because their recepie hasn't changed at all.

Jordan
05-15-2005, 02:50 PM
M3ti? There never was such a thing.

You took an old E30, stripped it down and compleatly rebuilt it with a new motor, the euro M-Tech II kit, and whatever else you did to it.

You sir are a complete moron. I rest my case in these 2 comments.

Everyone commence laughter in his direction. :rolleyes:

King Luis
05-15-2005, 03:20 PM
i kind of agree with jordan...i haven't driven the e90 but i do like the styling....but what every bmw needs is the classic bmw feel, sound and overall atmosphere of a bmw.

NOTORIOUS VR
05-15-2005, 05:49 PM
You sir are a complete moron. I rest my case in these 2 comments.

Everyone commence laughter in his direction. :rolleyes:


I'm a moron eh... ok... where is this M3ti you speak of?

EDIT: My bad... I didn't realize you were talking about a members user name.

I'll agree I was wrong that you used the M Tech II kit on your car... I reallly didn't bother looking @ it 100%, i just noticed the rear wing which is from the M Tech II kit.

So what about the rest of the post?

Jordan
05-15-2005, 06:53 PM
So what about the rest of the post?

I can tell from your post I would have better results banging my head against a brick wall then trying to talk to you about anything. You aren't worth the effort. Your opinions are completely set in stone.

NOTORIOUS VR
05-15-2005, 08:06 PM
I can tell from your post I would have better results banging my head against a brick wall then trying to talk to you about anything. You aren't worth the effort. Your opinions are completely set in stone.

What a hypocrite you are... Have you ever read your posts?

ROCKETMAN
05-16-2005, 01:54 AM
But Infiniti's M45 might. .


Might????

ROCKETMAN
05-16-2005, 02:09 AM
BMW might be saying that their sales are growing, but thats where the catch might be. The sales were continuosly growing, but it can just be that the rate of growth has decreased. So they would say that their new line of models is increasing sales, but actually, the sales have suffered.
I wouldnt be surprised if this was the case. Afterall, didnt BMW announce that theyre gonna change to a complenely new design direction as of next model redesign?

Also, did you ever consider the huge competition that they now have from every direction to be the casue of BMW "not being as it was"? They had to do something to stand out, especially since their cars wernt exactly eyecatching. Maybe to the BMW enthusiast, but not to the common person.

chromius
05-16-2005, 10:11 AM
you simply don't marry a woman because she looks hot and has big boobs.

afterall, you will do most of the driving within a car, and i just don't think using exterior design to judge a car is fair.

True, but if you have two women in front of you, one has personality but is ugly as hell, and the other has personality, but also looks hot. Which would you choose?

The e90 is that woman that everyone says has a great personality, but no one has the guts to tell her she is ugly as sin. ;)

tifosi
05-16-2005, 02:19 PM
True, but if you have two women in front of you, one has personality but is ugly as hell, and the other has personality, but also looks hot. Which would you choose?

The e90 is that woman that everyone says has a great personality, but no one has the guts to tell her she is ugly as sin. ;)

for starter, i don't think E90 looks ugly as hell. and besides, at this price range, i cannot think of a sexy car that is as capable as the new 3. so i don't really see what you are trying to point out.

chromius
05-16-2005, 02:47 PM
for starter, i don't think E90 looks ugly as hell. and besides, at this price range, i cannot think of a sexy car that is as capable as the new 3. so i don't really see what you are trying to point out.

well, as for looks, thats subjective, and if you like the looks of the e90 then I can't help you.

For what it is, it is definitly a capable car, however your statement is pretty broad, because for that price I can think of a few cars that are much more capable. (until the e90 m3 is officially released)

tifosi
05-16-2005, 03:53 PM
well, as for looks, thats subjective, and if you like the looks of the e90 then I can't help you.

For what it is, it is definitly a capable car, however your statement is pretty broad, because for that price I can think of a few cars that are much more capable. (until the e90 m3 is officially released)

yes, the styling is totally subjective. i like it, and i am not trying to make you to like it. though, i just think it's a be shallow to judge a car purely on it's look.

because after all, i think all German cars looks pretty boring. but look is hardly what make German cars better than the rest. *th-up*

chromius
05-16-2005, 05:00 PM
yes, the styling is totally subjective. i like it, and i am not trying to make you to like it. though, i just think it's a be shallow to judge a car purely on it's look.

because after all, i think all German cars looks pretty boring. but look is hardly what make German cars better than the rest. *th-up*

I'm not judging the car based purely on looks, I am basing it on the whole package, I wouldn't buy a car that looks good and handles/feels like crap, but in the same respect, I don't think I could go about spending $40k+ on a car if I don't like the look of it, no matter how well it handles.

Also on top of that, I don't like the path BMW has taken over the years, in terms of looks, and also in terms of adding pointless gadgetry (ie. iDrive). What happend to the days when the pure thrill of driving a sporty car was enough to keep people happy. Now everyone seems to "need" traction control/ABS/climate control/10 speaker radio's/seat warmers/back massagers/navigation systems/heated steering wheels...etc. the list goes on and on.

People have forgotten what its like to drive a true car where you are directly connected to the car and the road.

My $0.02 :)

lvan
05-16-2005, 08:41 PM
I have a magazin about E90 330i. iT has some new N52 engine and block made from aluminum.Also the car has more room and heavier then e46..

wHAT I want to say is all these lil facts come into play so to decide if right car for you ,take it for a spin.

It says 6.1 to 62miles/100km.Man that's kinda slow,The G35 would rape it!

EMPOWERD
05-16-2005, 11:21 PM
Test drove several E90's today on a test track... here's my review....

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54111

duffy325
05-16-2005, 11:26 PM
I have a magazin about E90 330i. iT has some new N52 engine and block made from aluminum.Also the car has more room and heavier then e46..

wHAT I want to say is all these lil facts come into play so to decide if right car for you ,take it for a spin.

It says 6.1 to 62miles/100km.Man that's kinda slow,The G35 would rape it!

BMW has never been about the 0-60 so does it matter if other cars can take it in a straight line? The problem I have with asian cars, is despite the fact that they have amazing quality, reliability, and basically the best built cars there are, they lack driving passion (on a whole). Thats why I bought a BMW. I don't care if it is not in the top 5 for initial build quality, because I love to drive it and get feeling from it which I don't get from the 3 Accords, and more recently the Altima v6 we have had/have.



Also on top of that, I don't like the path BMW has taken over the years, in terms of looks, and also in terms of adding pointless gadgetry (ie. iDrive). What happend to the days when the pure thrill of driving a sporty car was enough to keep people happy. Now everyone seems to "need" traction control/ABS/climate control/10 speaker radio's/seat warmers/back massagers/navigation systems/heated steering wheels...etc. the list goes on and on.

People have forgotten what its like to drive a true car where you are directly connected to the car and the road.

My $0.02 :)

This is exactly why BMW has had to go in this direction. The requirement for profitability has demanded it. Seems like the reason Porsche built an SUV. Keep the purist cars, ie. 911 GT3 etc.... but sell what people want to keep the company alive. Just be thankful there are still M cars out there. As for the e90, I don't think any of us could drive one at length and not love it. Though I will reserve my judgement on its looks until next tuesday at the Nova Scotia unveiling. First impressions are top notch.

chromius
05-16-2005, 11:42 PM
This is exactly why BMW has had to go in this direction. The requirement for profitability has demanded it. Seems like the reason Porsche built an SUV. Keep the purist cars, ie. 911 GT3 etc.... but sell what people want to keep the company alive. Just be thankful there are still M cars out there. As for the e90, I don't think any of us could drive one at length and not love it. Though I will reserve my judgement on its looks until next tuesday at the Nova Scotia unveiling. First impressions are top notch.

I completly agree that certain sacrifices have to be made for profitability puposes, however, I think that those sacrifices could have been made in a better way.

Sticking with the Porsche analogy, The cayanne is aguably the best handling SUV on the market, therefore they have stuck to their "roots" in a manner of speaking, albeit with an SUV :rolleyes:

We had our unveiling here in Ottawa, and needless to say, I wasn't impressed as you can probably tell, the car was just very blah. Mind you, the show and the food was very good. :)

ROCKETMAN
05-17-2005, 01:35 AM
.... but look is hardly what make German cars better than the rest. *th-up*

The best? You can only point out the winner of anything once you have stated what the race is for. The best in what?
More beautiful than Italian? More powerful than American? More reliable than Japanese? More creative than Swedish/French?
What is your brief for what consitutes best?
I too like a German carmaker the most, but thats because I like Audi the best because of: this, this and this.. Saying "Audi is the best" for example is grade 8 stuff.

tifosi
05-17-2005, 04:56 AM
The best? You can only point out the winner of anything once you have stated what the race is for. The best in what?
More beautiful than Italian? More powerful than American? More reliable than Japanese? More creative than Swedish/French?
What is your brief for what consitutes best?
I too like a German carmaker the most, but thats because I like Audi the best because of: this, this and this.. Saying "Audi is the best" for example is grade 8 stuff.

i never said they are the best, did i?
no, German cars don't handle as good as some Italians, nor does it look as good as many British, nor are they as reliable as Japanese, and certainly not as cheap as most American cars. i totally understand that, though it's the combination of all of the element that makes me like some German cars.
for instance, i am getting another BMW because i think it perform relatively well, quite well priced, and pretty praticle. and of course, those are just my personal opinion.

lvan
05-17-2005, 05:34 AM
I was not concerned about speed I just wanted to say what was in the magazine.
I like how they made a bigger and heavier.

duffy325
05-17-2005, 10:23 AM
I completly agree that certain sacrifices have to be made for profitability puposes, however, I think that those sacrifices could have been made in a better way.

Sticking with the Porsche analogy, The cayanne is aguably the best handling SUV on the market, therefore they have stuck to their "roots" in a manner of speaking, albeit with an SUV :rolleyes:


A valid point. I just think that while BMW moves in this direction, there will still be good cars for the current enthusiasts to enjoy as well. I don't think BMW has really fully departed from where it came from. I see BMW as being two things. The ultimate driving machine, and the ultimate status machine. Whether or not there are better status cars (of course there are but it doesn't matter), is irrelevant because a large number, probably a majority, of BMW buyers purchase for the latter reason. A BMW says I've made it, and I have money.

Most of the other owners I chat with at the dealership and such don't have a clue about anything about their car. I.e. the "basic" things like that a 1992-1998 (with allowance of course for sedan/coupe changes in 1992 and 99) e36 is an e36. They don't understand any of the designations. Nor do they know what an M50 is, or what Vanos is or anything of that nature. They know they have a BMW and that is all that matters.

However, when I go to the track with the BMW club, the discussion is always technical and there is an enthusiasm for the cars and their history. BMW has always made cars to cater to this group ie. M3, 330izhp, M5, etc…. and will continue to do so. Each successive model of 3 series performs at a higher level than the previous, regardless of “feel changes” and I think we can expect the e90 to continue this trend. I’m sure Randy can comment on this after his review.

Anyhow back to work for me, but I don’t think we need to concern ourselves with BMW’s direction, as their will always be enthusiast cars for you and I. Hence, a manual transmission offering for the e60 M5 for the NA market (No need to start a debate on the merits of SMG vs. Manual, just worth mentioning as it is something enthusiasts here wanted).

chromius
05-17-2005, 12:50 PM
A valid point. I just think that while BMW moves in this direction, there will still be good cars for the current enthusiasts to enjoy as well. I don't think BMW has really fully departed from where it came from. I see BMW as being two things. The ultimate driving machine, and the ultimate status machine. Whether or not there are better status cars (of course there are but it doesn't matter), is irrelevant because a large number, probably a majority, of BMW buyers purchase for the latter reason. A BMW says I've made it, and I have money.

Most of the other owners I chat with at the dealership and such don't have a clue about anything about their car. I.e. the "basic" things like that a 1992-1998 (with allowance of course for sedan/coupe changes in 1992 and 99) e36 is an e36. They don't understand any of the designations. Nor do they know what an M50 is, or what Vanos is or anything of that nature. They know they have a BMW and that is all that matters.

However, when I go to the track with the BMW club, the discussion is always technical and there is an enthusiasm for the cars and their history. BMW has always made cars to cater to this group ie. M3, 330izhp, M5, etc…. and will continue to do so. Each successive model of 3 series performs at a higher level than the previous, regardless of “feel changes” and I think we can expect the e90 to continue this trend. I’m sure Randy can comment on this after his review.

Anyhow back to work for me, but I don’t think we need to concern ourselves with BMW’s direction, as their will always be enthusiast cars for you and I. Hence, a manual transmission offering for the e60 M5 for the NA market (No need to start a debate on the merits of SMG vs. Manual, just worth mentioning as it is something enthusiasts here wanted).

You make some really good points, but unfortunatly we will have to agree to disagree :)

Using Porsche as an example again, they havn't really messed with the enthusiast following of their lineup, to make themselves profitable again they made new addtitions to their lineup, ie Cayanne and Boxster, however they kept their current lineup, bassically unchanged, except for things that made them better, ie engine, handling, driver satisfaction. They even went as far as reverting the looks of the 997 to an older style, because thats what the "people" wanted. Now Prosche is listed as one of the most profitable branch of all the car company's

BMW on the otherhand, seems to be forcefeeding the people with styles they think the people should like. All I see is the 3 series consistently getting bigger and heavier with each successive model year, turning it into a larger sedan, whereas it used to be the "sporty" end of their lineup. They should have left the 3 series what it was, and built other models to compliment it, and let those be the "profitable" models.

Lucky we still have the M cars, but I fear it won't be for long, as I hear a X5 M version is in the works, so I fear that is the biggining of the end for the enthusiasts safe haven we like to call "M"

duffy325
05-17-2005, 01:42 PM
You make some really good points, but unfortunatly we will have to agree to disagree :)

Using Porsche as an example again, they havn't really messed with the enthusiast following of their lineup, to make themselves profitable again they made new addtitions to their lineup, ie Cayanne and Boxster, however they kept their current lineup, bassically unchanged, except for things that made them better, ie engine, handling, driver satisfaction. They even went as far as reverting the looks of the 997 to an older style, because thats what the "people" wanted. Now Prosche is listed as one of the most profitable branch of all the car company's

BMW on the otherhand, seems to be forcefeeding the people with styles they think the people should like. All I see is the 3 series consistently getting bigger and heavier with each successive model year, turning it into a larger sedan, whereas it used to be the "sporty" end of their lineup. They should have left the 3 series what it was, and built other models to compliment it, and let those be the "profitable" models.

Lucky we still have the M cars, but I fear it won't be for long, as I hear a X5 M version is in the works, so I fear that is the biggining of the end for the enthusiasts safe haven we like to call "M"


Hahah well atleast we understand each other and I can agree with what you say. I have never really read any documentation on BMW's intentions with this design route, but if anyone has something I would like to read it to get their explanation.

But in the end, there will be the used cars out there for many years that are closer to what we want I guess. My next BMW will be used again no doubt. Likely an E46 M3, M Coupe, or M Roadster. Or I maybe even older with another e36 only this time an M3. Time will tell I suppose.

I'll stay loyal for now, but I guess if I am not planning on buying a new BMW in the next few years, maybe my opinion on new models is irrelevent? *wiggle*

chromius
05-17-2005, 02:03 PM
still loyal too *th-up* just seems to be getting harder and harder these days to keep an open mind to such extreem design changes. Only time will tell I guess. :)

Nascar318is
05-17-2005, 02:54 PM
Bigger and heavier for sure. Just look at the M3 line....

Went from a 4 Cyl E30 to a 6 Cyl E36-E46 and now an 8 Cyl for the E90...but also BMW needed more power to keep up with the competition (lexus, Audi)

The new E90 is not for me, like you guys were saying it might have luxury on the inside but not the outside and the ride is probably really nice. But for looks no thanks...it would be like saying I'm going to buy a 4X4 lada cause they don't blow up....IMO they are ugly(Lada's) as hell...To each there own...that is why some people on here love E30's but dispise E36's. Some hate E30's but love E46's etc... It depends on the person and I think BMW will sell alot of the E90's...Just look at all the 6er's on the road they aren't that hot but man If they gave me one I wouldn't say no and that is the same for the E90 sedan....as for the E90 coupe that's a different story we'll just have to wait and see....

sthomas
05-18-2005, 01:22 PM
It's a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand BMW has made fans with the e30 M3. It was fast and very 'pure' from our modern day perspective. No gadgets - of course the fact they didn't really exist back then seems to be forgotten. Then the e36 M3. It's heavier, and had some more modern toys. But keep in mind that it's also faster than the e30. E46 kept this same trend - more toys but also even faster (especially compared to the NA e36 M3's). Now we have the e90. I'm betting that the e90 M car (if/when it appears) will continue this trend.

I remember talking to a Ford salesman once (in the 90's) about the 5.0L Mustangs. He mentioned that most people bought two - the second after the first was wrapped around a telephone pole:) I imagine the same would apply if we had a 'pure' (e30 perspective) e46 M3. Without the aids, it's just to much car for the average M3 buyers ability. The insurance impact alone would be incredible.

Anyways, just me 2 cents.

duffy325
05-18-2005, 03:12 PM
It's a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand BMW has made fans with the e30 M3. It was fast and very 'pure' from our modern day perspective. No gadgets - of course the fact they didn't really exist back then seems to be forgotten. Then the e36 M3. It's heavier, and had some more modern toys. But keep in mind that it's also faster than the e30. E46 kept this same trend - more toys but also even faster (especially compared to the NA e36 M3's). Now we have the e90. I'm betting that the e90 M car (if/when it appears) will continue this trend.

I remember talking to a Ford salesman once (in the 90's) about the 5.0L Mustangs. He mentioned that most people bought two - the second after the first was wrapped around a telephone pole:) I imagine the same would apply if we had a 'pure' (e30 perspective) e46 M3. Without the aids, it's just to much car for the average M3 buyers ability. The insurance impact alone would be incredible.

Anyways, just me 2 cents.


Agreed. And also reiterates the point I was trying to make above about an increasingly capable car. Our unveiling is next week here in NS so I am looking forward to checking it out.

chromius
05-18-2005, 03:29 PM
well, I said my position above, but just to reply to the above. You can't say one car is more capable then the previous one just because they add more horsepower. You can only compare power in a specific era. The average sports sedan 20 years ago never came with 400hp (that was supercar category), so you can't say that a 20 year old car was not capable because it only had 200hp.

Also, lets not forget hp might be going up but so is weight. take that 333hp and put it in an e30 chassis and guaranteed it will eat an e46 m3 for breakfast.

and I do not consider adding things like heated steering wheel's, sat nav, climate control, 8 speaker stereo's etc. as making a car more capable

I agree the engine in the e90 is impressive, its just too bad it has been mated to a bloated chassis.

Just as an example, I'm sure many people can agree the ultimate enthusists car is the fararri F40, and if you look at that car, it is as stripped down as you can get, power nothing.

BMW has to decide wheather the 3 series is a luxury sedan, or a sports sedan, I think their definition of it has gotten skewed. :)

sthomas
05-18-2005, 05:56 PM
From a weight perspective, I understand that the e90 is actually lighter (leaner) than the e46. I think it is still a little heavier than the e36, but not by much.

chromius
05-18-2005, 06:08 PM
From a weight perspective, I understand that the e90 is actually lighter (leaner) than the e46. I think it is still a little heavier than the e36, but not by much.

e90 is about 150lbs heavier than the e46 it is also 3" wider, and 2.2" longer than the e46

chromius
05-18-2005, 06:11 PM
and just for comparison's sake..it is also about 700lbs heavier than the e30

duffy325
05-18-2005, 06:46 PM
When I say capable, I mean in overall track performance rather than purely hp figures. I think this can be agreed upon that the overall performance has improved each time.

Nascar318is
05-18-2005, 07:20 PM
Just wait till the E90 M3 comes out...that thing should be heavier due to the engine size(V8)...

chromius
05-18-2005, 08:10 PM
When I say capable, I mean in overall track performance rather than purely hp figures. I think this can be agreed upon that the overall performance has improved each time.

That I am not sure about, I can attest to the fact that I have seen e30's outhandle e46's, especially at AutoX's where hp figures do not mean as much, however, this could be attributed to driver skill. so I'm not sure.

I have yet to see track numbers for the e90.

Needless to say, I don't want to get into which is better on a track, because that is not what I am arguing, I only brought up the weight issue because it was an example of how much junk keeps getting stuffed into these cars, making a car feel better on the road, and handle better on the track dosn't take an extra 700lbs. Don't get me wrong, bmw's are still great handling cars. but We are getting away from the real topic, which is wheather driver satisfaction is still there, and in that department I think BMW is faltering. They have taken the "sports" out of their sports sedan, and replaced it with luxury, and the looks and lines are no longer unique, or smooth. :)

duffy325
05-18-2005, 10:59 PM
That I am not sure about, I can attest to the fact that I have seen e30's outhandle e46's, especially at AutoX's where hp figures do not mean as much, however, this could be attributed to driver skill. so I'm not sure.

I have yet to see track numbers for the e90.

Needless to say, I don't want to get into which is better on a track, because that is not what I am arguing, I only brought up the weight issue because it was an example of how much junk keeps getting stuffed into these cars, making a car feel better on the road, and handle better on the track dosn't take an extra 700lbs. Don't get me wrong, bmw's are still great handling cars. but We are getting away from the real topic, which is wheather driver satisfaction is still there, and in that department I think BMW is faltering. They have taken the "sports" out of their sports sedan, and replaced it with luxury, and the looks and lines are no longer unique, or smooth. :)


I just thought you mistook my "capable" as purely a hp measure, so I was just clarifying. I don't disagree with your points.

chromius
05-18-2005, 11:46 PM
I just thought you mistook my "capable" as purely a hp measure, so I was just clarifying. I don't disagree with your points.

no prob. I think it's at least safe to say BMW hasn't lost either of us yet. *th-up*

Simby
05-20-2005, 11:52 PM
Sorry mate, but the new 5 series you got there looks kickass! Hands down I'd take that over any of the cars you listed.

Simon


good looking

http://www.m535i.org/gallery/e28pics4/Walt88-535i.jpg

http://home.kc.rr.com/brainstorm/M5_E34_s.jpg

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/r/drk150/soapbox/m51.jpg

This looks like turd and its lines don't like each other

http://www.fantasycars.com/gallery/Cars/BMW/2005%20E60%20M5/bmw_m5_e602.jpg

Which one doesn't belong? I think we can all see which one.........

BS87
05-23-2005, 01:42 AM
The "Newest" BMW that i like is the E36/8.

Dunno, guess i just like odd looking cars?