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agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 02:21 PM
ok, theres alot of morons on this site that think goth is self-hating demonic people wearing black. well, news flash. ITS NOT! so im going to explain to you small-minded people what goth REALY is.





What is Goth?

Ignoring historical references to European barbarian tribes and, architectural, literal and art styles, Goth is a subculture. It started in the late 1970's both in Europe AND the United States OUTSIDE of the club/music scene. The culture was comprised of INDIVIDUALS with very little in common but their artistic drive, insatiable curiosity, extreme intellectualism, and the socially unacceptable need to be and express themselves. In a nutshell, Goth is very much like 70s Punk with a brain and good manners. (In other words, it shares the underlying feeling of disgust and seperation from normal everyday culture that the 70s Punks espoused, but expresses its alienation and disenchantment with modern society and it's values in a more intelligent and less destructive manner.) The label Goth itself is very much a discriptive reference to the literary genre and architectural style both of which characterize and evoke the mood and to a certain degree, mindset that is generally idealized by modern Goth as a cultural group.

NO. Black and angst are not necessary to be Goth. True Goth defies stereotyping and does not adhere to dress codes. Too much angst or other negative emotion stifles a person's ability to learn, think, and create. Most actual Goths are psychologically pretty well-adjusted people. They just have a different set of cultural and social blueprints than your average person. Ms. Lemay knows a lot more about web authoring than she does about Goth, even if she refuses to practice good web design on her own personal site. But she DID get one thing right when she said,"Try not to take yourselves so seriously." Granted, that's a little out of context, but it's good advice just the same.


So, this brings up a whole new can of worms...the most common tidbits of juicy misinformation about Goth. In almost two decades of watching people's perceptions of Goth, I have found that never has there been so much inaccurate information as there is now. It's time to break out the hammer and start banging. Let's take a look at the most commonly distributed misinformation about Goth, shall we?*


Ten Gothic Stereotypes We All Love To Repeat:

All Goths must wear black. Color is not Goth.
Goth is a subculture based on a musical style.
All Goths listen to the same music.
All Goths are fixated on death.
All Goths drink a lot/do drugs.
Goth came from the hippie movement.
Goths don't laugh except to mock others.
Goths all have tattoos and piercings.
Goths always wear a lot of makeup.
Goth and Freak are interchangeable terms for the same culture.


I know that a lot of so-called "Goth" people accept these things to be facts. I see it on the Web and I see it on what passes for a scene. I also know that this list of statements and quite a few others like them are just so much bullshit. So what is the truth? Here, let's go back through that list and correct things, eh? You might be surprised, or you might be another Olde Schooler, in which case, you'll be greatly amused.



All Goths are fixated on death.
Okay people. Repeat after me: Goth is not about death. Good. Now go to your local institution of higher learning and enroll in art history and English lit classes. Learn about symbolism and metaphor. Maybe take a few philosophy classes. This stereotype is usually caused by being uneducated or ignorant. Goths are by and large more fixated on the concept of beauty as an abstract, creative endeavors (both their own and those of historical origins) and simply trying to get ahead in a society that doesn't share their individual aesthetics, values and principals. If you have a decent fine arts education, an ounce of perceptiveness and know the difference between a real Goth and a skin-Goth, you know that Goth, while often dark and eerie, is NOT obsessed with death. Regular American culture is.



All Goths drink a lot/do drugs.
I realize that this is a pretty deeply ingrained idea about Gothic culture, but it's wrong. Goths are not all completely cleancut, sqeaky-clean sober types, but we aren't all into drugs. Granted, most young people go through an experimental stage with sex and drugs, and the bulk of Goth is made up of young people, but let's face it, Goths don't do any more drugs than your average person. Drugs aren't a requirement in being Goth, even if there are a lot of irresponsible people out on the scene who are hellbent on telling you otherwise. We have a word for those types. Maybe you've heard it...Junkie. Just remember Goth does not equal Junkie.



Goths don't laugh except to mock others.
This is just too pretentious. I spend a lot of time laughing at a lot of things that have nothing to do with the misfortunes or lack of taste of others. I am not the exception. Most Goths have a well-developed sense of humor that is really quite healthy. Certainly we don't all laugh at the same things or make the same kinds of jokes, but that is a given, isn't it? It seems that a huge number of people that claim to be Goth also claim that we don't share in the common human arena of emotion, but common sense alone should tell you that this is, like so many other things, a posturing load of unmitigated bull. Yes, I know that there are flocks of people who claim to be Goth that will demonstrate personally and in the most uncomfortable fashion that we are nasty, sociopathic bastards who live to laugh at your misfortunes and will excuse their unacceptible behavior by claiming that it's the Goth way of acting. I'm sure you've seen them in IRC and Usenet and that they seem to be the unpleasant majority, but if you take a few minutes to think, it may become apparent that at least online there are entirely too many people claiming to be something other than they are and that people in general (online and off) are frightfully nasty towards one another if they feel that they can get away with it. Sure, we Goths have a different view of things socially, but then again, so do the Japanese, and no one accuses them of not ever laughing non-maliciously. Do they?

Goths all have tattoos and piercings.
More stereotyping. Tattoos and piercings have become very trendy these days. Stereotypical Goth has also become very trendy. So you are going to see a lot of skin-Goths running around with a lot of very obvious tattoos and piercings. You will also see a lot of Ravers, Rednecks, Indie Kids and other people who have nothing to do with Goth running around with tattoos and piercings a-go-go. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to deduce that one. Just remember, Goths are individuals. We will do what we think looks right on us, and if having no ink or metal imbedded in our skin feels right, we will do with or without and still be indisputably Goth.


Goths always wear a lot of weird or scary makeup.
No, not at all. This, again, goes back to the central idea that Goths are individuals and all exercise their own judgment on how they feel like looking. Sure, makeup is pretty cool, and its application can be a fun pre-outing ritual, but again, it is far from necessary.


Goth and Freak are interchangeable terms for the same culture.
This is ridiculous. It is almost as silly as saying that grunge kids and rednecks are the same cultural group. Sure, there may be some similarities in the stereotypical outward appearance to the grossly unobservant or the painfully ignorant, but it is still radically untrue. Anyone who would ever mistake one for the other after observing for a few minutes is either blind, high, or completely unaware of the actual social and ideological dynamics of both groups. I am thinking that if we are going to continue to live in a society that needs to categorize, stereotype and label, that perhaps we should more carefully analyze the people and things we are labeling before we slap a name on them. Don't just call someone something because they look a certain way. Visual stereotyping is a terribly inaccurate method for classifying people in real practice these days. Most often you will be wrong, and vastly poorer for it.


So, hopefully some of this has made some sort of impact on some of you. Maybe you might even be a little more interested in Goth as a culture and individual Goths as people with something more meaningful and valuable to contribute to both society in general and yourself in particular than bad attitude, poor taste and drugs. Who knows, you might even realize that *you* are Goth. Or that the black-wearing scary kids who have been giving you a hard time because you can't recite every album produced by Christian Death before Valor took over aren't anything but trendies, bullies or jocks.



I've said what I needed to say. It's time to hop off of the soapbox and pray I land feet-first again. This rant is over. Stay beautiful, stay graceful, and stay you.



-agent_Z3

2slow4door
04-07-2005, 02:26 PM
all I have to say is that , the people who already know this will continue to know this and those who against goths or against anything will probably continue to be against it, people are prejudice thats the way it is and few can be changed and few want to be. Not to sound depressing or anything......

sloveniaboy
04-07-2005, 02:26 PM
ever been to Velvet Underground?

mirek
04-07-2005, 02:28 PM
ever been to Velvet Underground?

yep! got arrested outside that place for fighting, spend the night in the drunk tank *thmbsdwn*

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 02:28 PM
2slow4door, are you goth? you are the only persone on this forum that has said anything half-way good about goths


PS. i dont mean to croud up your forum with this stuff...but i had to say it...

sloveniaboy
04-07-2005, 02:32 PM
yep! got arrested outside that place for fighting, spend the night in the drunk tank *thmbsdwn*

lol *th-up*

UncleJ
04-07-2005, 02:35 PM
Real goth =

http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50117&stc=1

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 02:39 PM
you make me sick.

UncleJ
04-07-2005, 02:42 PM
you make me sick.

I guess cause you're jealous of how real MM is.

agent_z3 = fake goth

mirek
04-07-2005, 02:43 PM
no, real goth.

i wish i had photoshop at work

btw. unclej, why do you have the dude from nsync in your sig?

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 02:44 PM
are you trying to be funny? beause your not

mirek
04-07-2005, 02:46 PM
are you trying to be funny? beause your not

i think i have a great sense of humor... i think you need to take a prozac, cheer up, life's not so bad!

Ryousuke
04-07-2005, 02:49 PM
Too much to read, don't really care yuo are a goth fine be with it I don't really care what you do in your spare time or what music you listen too....

UncleJ
04-07-2005, 02:51 PM
no, real goth.

i wish i had photoshop at work

btw. unclej, why do you have the dude from nsync in your sig?

What N'sync member does R.A. the Rugged Man look like?

Oh snap, I found a goth poetry generator.

http://www.gis.net/~jspower/random.html

I am swimming in my own despair
tearing
breaking
i have a demon's thoughts
I'm the darkness that rules your mind
my mascara cannot hide the tears in my eyes
i cry even as i write
the blood that i have bleed for thee
i really like blood
my soul is dead and nothing is left
neil gaiman writes from my heart
endless bloodlust

-agent_z3

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 02:53 PM
well i didnt put this here for you to know what music i listen to, i put it here for idiots like UncleJ to know what real goth is, but his brain is probably not big enough to take in all that at once. he probably didnt even inderstand it

UncleJ
04-07-2005, 02:55 PM
well i didnt put this here for you to know what music i listen to, i put it here for idiots like UncleJ to know what real goth is, but his brain is probably not big enough to take in all that at once. he probably didnt even inderstand it

I am awash in blood and pain
tearing
breaking
Black roses are strewn in my path
singing in the dark church
the blade kisses me deeply
if only i could live in a castle
Nobody raises their eyes to heaven, no, not one
gushing
my soul is like poison
i will show the world one day
endless hopelessness

I like how you put -agent_z3 at the bottom of the original post, trying to play it off like you wrote it.

mirek
04-07-2005, 02:55 PM
What N'sync member does R.A. the Rugged Man look like?


here you go, here's rugged man.

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 02:56 PM
What N'sync member does R.A. the Rugged Man look like?

Oh snap, I found a goth poetry generator.

http://www.gis.net/~jspower/random.html

I am swimming in my own despair
tearing
breaking
i have a demon's thoughts
I'm the darkness that rules your mind
my mascara cannot hide the tears in my eyes
i cry even as i write
the blood that i have bleed for thee
i really like blood
my soul is dead and nothing is left
neil gaiman writes from my heart
endless bloodlust

-agent_z3
just a vampire that hapens to know how to rym

UncleJ
04-07-2005, 03:00 PM
here you go, here's rugged man.

:confused:

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 03:03 PM
lol

mirek
04-07-2005, 03:10 PM
:confused:

i was comparing it to your sig pic, i see it.. :huh?:

2slow4door
04-07-2005, 03:18 PM
2slow4door, are you goth? you are the only persone on this forum that has said anything half-way good about goths


PS. i dont mean to croud up your forum with this stuff...but i had to say it...

I knew someone was going to ask, and no I'm not goth, I have goth friends, in fact I have friends from nearly all groups and I have nothing against any groups, I just get along with ppl and don't see a point in prejudging because it tends to make you narrow minded.

UncleJ
04-07-2005, 03:20 PM
i was comparing it to your sig pic, i see it.. :huh?:

I kinda see it.

mirek
04-07-2005, 03:26 PM
I knew someone was going to ask, and no I'm not goth, I have goth friends, in fact I have friends from nearly all groups and I have nothing against any groups, I just get along with ppl and don't see a point in prejudging because it tends to make you narrow minded.

i have a friend back in BC who's goth, i have a black friend, an asian friend, went out with an egyptian french girl once *mw* ,

i'm not racist, or prejudice, i think it's funny how people care so much about what someone on the internet thinks.

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 03:30 PM
but thats just the thing...i dont care what any1 thinks, i just wanted you all to know what it realy is.

5style
04-07-2005, 03:31 PM
:confused: then you do care, otherwise you wouldn't bother to waste time to tell the internet?

TiemenT
04-07-2005, 03:53 PM
why should i read this ? :confused:

BMWF1
04-07-2005, 03:56 PM
stop wasiting bandwidth

BigD
04-07-2005, 04:10 PM
Translation: people with WAY too much free ****ing time on their hands. If they had a job, some creative hobbies and some [HAPPY] friends they'd be too busy to worry about the unintelligent and destructive ways of the world. They can write all the self-vindicating drivel they like but the bottom line is no one hates "Goths", people pity the losers who dress up like it's halloween then sit around in groups and mope and whine about the state of the world and how it should all be resolved. Like my good friend once said, if you have so many problems with the world, here's a gun, eat a bullet. You will no longer have to suffer this world that you despise so much and the world will no longer have to put up with your ugly whiny ass.

non-conformists are all alike

CLEAN325is
04-07-2005, 04:21 PM
^^ Agreed. Well said!!

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 04:24 PM
Translation: people with WAY too much free ****ing time on their hands. If they had a job, some creative hobbies and some [HAPPY] friends they'd be too busy to worry about the unintelligent and destructive ways of the world. They can write all the self-vindicating drivel they like but the bottom line is no one hates "Goths", people pity the losers who dress up like it's halloween then sit around in groups and mope and whine about the state of the world and how it should all be resolved. Like my good friend once said, if you have so many problems with the world, here's a gun, eat a bullet. You will no longer have to suffer this world that you despise so much and the world will no longer have to put up with your ugly whiny ass.

non-conformists are all alike

sorry to break it to you...but, thats not goth. thats just a bunch of morons that THINK there goth, im goth, and i dont look like its holloween, in fact..i dont even selibrate holloween because of how it got started. and i dont wine about anything, unless its too much homework. lol. and btw, i have a job :moon: and i dont hate the world. yes, i do think somethings in the world is messed up, but i dont hate it. and eather do any of my goth friends. so, if you dont know what your talking about...just shut up. *wave*

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 04:25 PM
and i have 2 happy friends

mirek
04-07-2005, 04:36 PM
and i have 2 happy friends

congrats!

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 04:41 PM
woohoo! a cookie! yum^.^ lol, and i was just saying that because of bigd "and some [HAPPY] friends "

coolhand
04-07-2005, 04:42 PM
Goth chicks are ****en hot!

BigD
04-07-2005, 04:44 PM
I never said I think that is what Goth is. I said that's what people hate: whiny losers who feel justified in their ways by grouping themselves with their kind, like you (be it by calling yourselves Goth or the Three Musketeers or The Knights who say NI). Whether that's Goth or not I don't know and I don't give a shit.

My only good news to you is you will eventually grow up and it will pass. But for now, keep your delusions and malfunctions to yourself. If you try to convince the world of your righteousness by imposing it on us you will just get laughed at.

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 04:52 PM
im not trying to convince the world, and realy, i dont care what you think. your probably just a 50 year old 400 pound nerd that has nothing better to do but join every forum on the web just to put some of your shitty remarks. and i will not bow down to you. so just get off this forum so i will no longer have to put up with your ugly whiny ass.

UncleJ
04-07-2005, 04:56 PM
im not trying to convince the world, and realy, i dont care what you think. your probably just a 50 year old 400 pound nerd that has nothing better to do but join every forum on the web just to put some of your shitty remarks. and i will not bow down to you. so just get off this forum so i will no longer have to put up with your ugly whiny ass.

Heh... said that to the wrong guy.

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 04:57 PM
and who ever put "stop posting useless shit... ass hat" in my reputation...where in the world did you think of somthing like ass hat?...idiot

mirek
04-07-2005, 04:58 PM
Goth chicks are ****en hot!

crackhead... they are not... check out this dog i met in Austin, TX :puke:

mirek
04-07-2005, 05:01 PM
and who ever put "stop posting useless shit... ass hat" in my reputation...where in the world did you think of somthing like ass hat?...idiot

how do i check reputation stuff?

UncleJ
04-07-2005, 05:01 PM
and who ever put "stop posting useless shit... ass hat" in my reputation...where in the world did you think of somthing like ass hat?...idiot

Might be cause you're acting like an asshat, asshat.

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:08 PM
how do i check reputation stuff?

are you serious? :confused:

Mr seville
04-07-2005, 05:11 PM
are you trying to be funny? beause your not


i laughed...i dunno maybe it's just me :D

mirek
04-07-2005, 05:13 PM
are you serious? :confused:

yeah

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:15 PM
just click user cp and look down

saix
04-07-2005, 05:16 PM
agent your random as shit, and I didnt like you on your first post. Be a goth and quit life plz. *thmbsdwn*

saix
04-07-2005, 05:18 PM
agent you used a term and took it literaly, let me guess, your also a gay goth? since gay means happy right?

mirek
04-07-2005, 05:19 PM
just click user cp and look down

awesome thanks.

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:20 PM
well, i dont like you either

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:21 PM
awesome thanks.

your welcome *th-up*

saix
04-07-2005, 05:24 PM
well, i dont like you eather

what?! eat her!? what kind of sick goth are you?! Forget hippy bashing lets switch over to goths
*uzi*

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:28 PM
what?! eat her!? what kind of sick goth are you?! Forget hippy bashing lets switch over to goths
*uzi*

you are the dumbest persone iv ever almost talked to. where the heck did that come from? "eat her!?" well i dont know what you smoke in your spare time, but i said no such thing

saix
04-07-2005, 05:29 PM
well, i dont like you eather

If im dumb, atleast im a dumb person that can spell

saix
04-07-2005, 05:32 PM
agent did you miss theatre class today and decided to spam the forums with trash? How does somone like you operate a BMW?

bmwm5lover
04-07-2005, 05:32 PM
Please ban this alienated freak agent_z3

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:33 PM
your come backs are horable

sirex
04-07-2005, 05:35 PM
im not trying to convince the world, and realy, i dont care what you think. your probably just a 50 year old 400 pound nerd that has nothing better to do but join every forum on the web just to put some of your shitty remarks. and i will not bow down to you. so just get off this forum so i will no longer have to put up with your ugly whiny ass.


WHAT THE ****.. Big D should get off these forums? who the **** do you think you are you ****en lamer. God, you come on here, and you think you run the maxforums? Holy shit, You need to be banned right now for you stupid nonsense..

BTW no one cares that you are goth, and paint your face with black stripes to symbolize how lonely and depressed you are. Man grow up, who gives a shit what your beleifs are. NO ONE HERE CARES about your stupid individual beliefs.

Even if Goths dont cut themselves, and dont paint themsevles black, WHY IS IT YOU HAVE TO POST ABOUT WHAT GOTHS TRULY ARE. WHO CARES.

man, we should have a vote to have this dude banned.

saix
04-07-2005, 05:35 PM
Please ban this alienated freak agent_z3
hows that for a comeback? Dont let it hit you in the ass on your way out *wave*

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:41 PM
1. i dont think i run maxforums, i didnt say that.
2.if you want me to get off. then i will, no problem. but bliss has to tell me
3.you dont have to care...i was just explaining to every 1 here what it is
4.im acting alot older then you.

and ill even start the vote

sirex
04-07-2005, 05:45 PM
haha go for it.

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:46 PM
lol, i made it, go vote! good luck:D

sirex
04-07-2005, 05:49 PM
its not that I care about you getting banned, its the fact that, you say some completely random shit, and telling off bigD like that too leave. That was not cool or called for.

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 05:52 PM
yah...i know, its just that people make me mad when they bash me/ my friends/ things i do. and i AM i pretty ranom guy...lol

Mystikal
04-07-2005, 06:02 PM
Thrown in the garbage.

2slow4door
04-07-2005, 06:09 PM
this got dumb quick

agent_Z3
04-07-2005, 06:11 PM
yep

UncleJ
04-08-2005, 01:37 AM
agent_z3, use this sig instead.

Trit
04-08-2005, 01:42 AM
Oh snap!

Slowered318
04-08-2005, 03:39 AM
Well agent Z3 that's a fairly accurate writeup on Goths

Here is my personal expression:

Back in HS i was a "prep" then jumped on the "freak" bandwagon. I was only in it for the girls anyways, still find some of them sexy! Now i'm looked at as a "Gino" or "metrosexual", i don't feel like a gino and id rather not be called "metro" but what can ya do? I think it's just a way we catigory each other and sort out who we want to be friends with.

It's all very annoying ..You will see later in life their are only two groups.. winners and losers. And the only way to change how people look at you is to get to know them.

RevShoT
04-11-2005, 03:48 PM
no, real goth.

i wish i had photoshop at work

btw. unclej, why do you have the dude from nsync in your sig?


wtf? i have no part in this thread and the guy in the pic isnt even me!

Raging Lamb
04-11-2005, 04:33 PM
What's goth? :confused: