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View Full Version : e46 M3 motor into an e30?


ara325
03-01-2005, 10:42 AM
Has anyone heard/exhanged an e46 M3 motor into an e30 chassis? Is it possible? e36's fit so why not e46?...3.2 litres right?

NickP
03-01-2005, 12:42 PM
I don't think making it fit would be the problem. Its the engine management that would be the nightmare. You'd probably need to go with aftermarket engine management like Motec.

I haven't heard of anyone getting it done.
I haven't even heard of anyone getting it to run with the stock engine management with an e36, has this been done?

Ryousuke
03-01-2005, 12:43 PM
What M3 engine did Randy have in his E30?

NickP
03-01-2005, 12:44 PM
It wasn't from an e46, it was from an e36.

Mystikal
03-01-2005, 02:14 PM
There was one I believe, in Asia somewhere. Never found any details on it, but I suspect totally independent management was present.

I don't think it makes any sense to do it, personally. Even an M60/M62 swap would be less headache, provide the same HP and a lot more torque with a few mods, is actually lighter than an S54, and to top it all off is cheaper and much more plentiful in the wrecking yards.

Gamite
03-01-2005, 02:15 PM
There was one I believe, in Asia somewhere. Never found any details on it, but I suspect totally independent management was present.

I don't think it makes any sense to do it, personally. Even an M60/M62 swap would be less headache, provide the same HP and a lot more torque with a few mods, is actually lighter than an S54, and to top it all off is cheaper and much more plentiful in the wrecking yards.


torque monster, not to mention quite tunable (s/c)

thinair
03-01-2005, 04:36 PM
It is possible, but yes, standalone engine management is practically required.

If you're ready to have your wallet emptied, contact Sias Tuning (http://www.siastuning.com), they have TEC 3 setups for the S54 engine. Check out the projects section, the Widebody e36 M3 has an S54 in it.

MarkD
03-01-2005, 05:52 PM
I don't think making it fit would be the problem. Its the engine management that would be the nightmare. You'd probably need to go with aftermarket engine management like Motec.

I haven't heard of anyone getting it done.
I haven't even heard of anyone getting it to run with the stock engine management with an e36, has this been done?


Munich Motors has dropped an S54 into a Z3 and it should be running this spring... the car belongs to someone who is also on this board. (I hooked him up with Mike at Munich Motors)

MarkD

M50E30
03-01-2005, 07:10 PM
If your looking for a straight line car........E34 535i 3.5L w/ custom turbo/supercharger.

Or for a road course setup.......Z3 2.8L (all aluminum engine).

Munich Motors has dropped an S54 into a Z3 and it should be running this spring... the car belongs to someone who is also on this board. (I hooked him up with Mike at Munich Motors)

MarkD

Also don't forget.......Hartge has the E39 M5 4.9L in a Z4!

http://users.telenet.be/BMW_Pics/33.jpg
http://users.telenet.be/BMW_Pics/35.jpg

raffa
03-01-2005, 08:45 PM
Are you planing to swap S54 in to E30? Or you would just like to know who can do it for you?

SickFinga
03-01-2005, 11:56 PM
Munich Motors has dropped an S54 into a Z3 and it should be running this spring... the car belongs to someone who is also on this board. (I hooked him up with Mike at Munich Motors)

MarkD


Jazz guy?


if thats him, do you get in touch with him?

Rush
03-02-2005, 12:56 AM
Munich Motors has dropped an S54 into a Z3 and it should be running this spring... the car belongs to someone who is also on this board. (I hooked him up with Mike at Munich Motors)
^^^
It's up and running and they just dropped S54 into e36 ... I'll see if I can get some pics.

MarkD
03-02-2005, 09:47 AM
^^^
It's up and running and they just dropped S54 into e36 ... I'll see if I can get some pics.


You know Mike also? Maybe you met me there? (actually I think I know who you are)

I just talked to the owner of the Z3/S54 and he mentioned that he went out for a spin in it a few weeks ago. I told him to post something here.

I'll be over to Munich Motors soon as Mike wants me to start work on the software for a s/c X5 and I can take pictures then, unless you get there first.




MarkD

ScotcH
03-02-2005, 10:04 AM
Munich Motors has dropped an S54 into a Z3 and it should be running this spring... the car belongs to someone who is also on this board. (I hooked him up with Mike at Munich Motors)

MarkD

This seems like a dumb idea ... why not just get an M roadster?

///MAC
03-02-2005, 11:44 AM
damn i could just imagine the power coming from that z4, and in any cases from any e30 with m3 engines being dropped in, good luck with your work ahead

MarkD
03-02-2005, 11:48 AM
Jazz guy?


if thats him, do you get in touch with him?


Did you mean to ask: HOW do you get in touch with him?

MarkD

SkycityBMW
03-02-2005, 12:07 PM
It is possible, but yes, standalone engine management is practically required.

If you're ready to have your wallet emptied, contact Sias Tuning (http://www.siastuning.com), they have TEC 3 setups for the S54 engine. Check out the projects section, the Widebody e36 M3 has an S54 in it.


That M3/S54 . . is pretty sweet . . . now that would be fun to drive *th-up*

BMWF1
03-02-2005, 02:20 PM
ur not going to get it to turn over unless ur an electrical engineer, second randy had a E36 motor in his. Its not even worth the money and pain to do it, might as well buy a 2001 M3

MarkD
03-02-2005, 02:27 PM
ur not going to get it to turn over unless ur an electrical engineer, second randy had a E36 motor in his. Its not even worth the money and pain to do it, might as well buy a 2001 M3


You don't have to do the work yourself, just know somebody that knows how to do it and make it work. And it must be worth it to a few people to do it, as Munich Motors is working on the E36 now. And it's a chance to have something unique, isn't that what all you guys want anyway?

MarkD

greekthang
03-02-2005, 02:48 PM
It wont happen. You cannot do it. You cannot swap an e46 into a E36 or an e30. You can swap an e36 into a e30

330DTM
03-02-2005, 02:48 PM
It is possible, but yes, standalone engine management is practically required.

If you're ready to have your wallet emptied, contact Sias Tuning (http://www.siastuning.com), they have TEC 3 setups for the S54 engine. Check out the projects section, the Widebody e36 M3 has an S54 in it.


There's what Thinair mentioned and also the AEM unit. I believe TEC 3 doesn't support dual vanos where as the AEM standalone engine management system does, but I also believe that Sias Tuning used a method to bypass using the dual vanos.

I know for one thing that EVOsport (www.evosport.com) is working on a kit using the AEM system to allow one to run a S54 engine into an E36/E30.

MarkD
03-02-2005, 02:54 PM
There's what Thinair mentioned and also the AEM unit. I believe TEC 3 doesn't support dual vanos where as the AEM standalone engine management system does, but I also believe that Sias Tuning used a method to bypass using the dual vanos.

I know for one thing that EVOsport (www.evosport.com) is working on a kit using the AEM system to allow one to run a S54 engine into an E36/E30.


Why would you even want to remove the dual Vanos? The E46 uses a very fast CPU that has much more processing power than any aftermarket ECU.
I'd go the route where the original Motronic unit is retained.
Don't go down the aftermarket ECU route just because someone else did...

MarkD

Mystikal
03-02-2005, 04:11 PM
It wont happen. You cannot do it. You cannot swap an e46 into a E36 or an e30. You can swap an e36 into a e30

Uhhhh...I'm guessing you didn't read the thread.

paul christians
03-02-2005, 05:36 PM
this sound crazy but fun to drive a e30 with a e46 motor in it also is big $$$$$$$$$......

thinair
03-02-2005, 06:05 PM
It wont happen. You cannot do it. You cannot swap an e46 into a E36 or an e30. You can swap an e36 into a e30

Yes, it already has. :moon: Check the Sias Tuning link I posted above.

MarkD
03-02-2005, 07:09 PM
Yes, it already has. :moon: Check the Sias Tuning link I posted above.


Sure they put an S54 in an E36, but any monkey can do it with an aftermarket engine management system. The challenge is to make that motor run with the original ECU, and for that you need some special monkeys. :P

Let's see some links for S54's in an E36 or Z3, running on the MSS54 DME, not some aftermarket stuff. As I mentioned, the Siemens M-car DME is better than the aftermarket options.

Are they conrolling the VANOS on both intake and exhaust?

MarkD

King Luis
03-02-2005, 10:23 PM
can someone explain a engine management system to me?
i don't get why a motor would need one if it's only being changed into a different car.
it's not like it's getting a lot of different parts.

T.Dot_E30
03-02-2005, 10:55 PM
can someone explain a engine management system to me?
i don't get why a motor would need one if it's only being changed into a different car.
it's not like it's getting a lot of different parts.

It manages the engine :)

With out it, the motor wont start. it controls everything, timing, air/fuel,.....ehh alot more shit i donno about too, its not easy shit.

King Luis
03-02-2005, 11:09 PM
i know it manages that stuff.. but why would a aftermarket be the only on to work when the motor is put in a e30?
the motor hasn't changed, so wouldn't the stock one work fine?

330DTM
03-02-2005, 11:50 PM
Why would you even want to remove the dual Vanos? The E46 uses a very fast CPU that has much more processing power than any aftermarket ECU.
I'd go the route where the original Motronic unit is retained.
Don't go down the aftermarket ECU route just because someone else did...

MarkD


You do have a point Mark, but the thing is, is there anyone out there who has done it with the Motronic unit retained? If not, could it possibly be the difficulty level? Now this leads on as to why tuners may opt for the aftermarket standalone systems because they know they can make it work.

I'm pretty sure the original unit will always be the the best to use, but it's a matter of being able to reprogram and make it compatible with what you're trying to do. I'm assuming no one has yet, so therefore I mentioned the TEC3 and the AEM units which have been used or currently in the process of R&D'ing to run the E46 M3 engines on E36/E30s.

MarkD
03-03-2005, 12:15 AM
You do have a point Mark, but the thing is, is there anyone out there who has done it with the Motronic unit retained? If not, could it possibly be the difficulty level? Now this leads on as to why tuners may opt for the aftermarket standalone systems because they know they can make it work.

I'm pretty sure the original unit will always be the the best to use, but it's a matter of being able to reprogram and make it compatible with what you're trying to do. I'm assuming no one has yet, so therefore I mentioned the TEC3 and the AEM units which have been used or currently in the process of R&D'ing to run the E46 M3 engines on E36/E30s.


It's not easy to do, and that's why all the other places don't do it. They take the easy route. (but not the best route). I've heard of guys adding aftermarket EFI and locking the VANOS because they can't control it. The main reason that it's so hard to transplant the S54 and use the Siemens MSS54 DME is that it talks to other electronic contol units (ECU's) on the two separate buses (one being the CAN bus) and if it doesn't see the other ECU's, it won't start. I saw the guy working on the electronics of the Z3 transplant at Munich Motors and I was quite impressed. (I had to see this work as I told the Z3 owner to go there for the transplant, and would have to go hide under a rock if it didn't work in the end).
So far I'd say they have accomplished something that very few others have done. I'm sure you will hear more about this car soon.

MarkD

JazzM
03-13-2005, 02:11 PM
Hi Guys;

I've been away working on this transplant for the past 8 months (its the first one in north america using original ECU/wiring)... though the second one (e36) only took about 3 weeks to get up and running. As Mark was saying, the hard part is the electronics. We had the engine in and out in 2 days. To give you some history to this project, I originally had a 2.8 Ltr engine in my car. This engine started to missbehave due to a poor installation of the AA supercharger kit. Due to this condtion the engine became unusable and thus required a rebuild. After exploring several options, I decided to sell the AA S/C kit and go back to the N/A route. Mark D suggested to me that I talk with Mike from Munich motors. That was in July of 04.

We basically ended up stripping almost everything out of the engine bay and installed the S54 with the matching 6 speed transmission. The donor car was a 2002 M3 with only 500km - basically a brand new engine/tranny. The engine bolts right on, however the drive shaft and shift linkage needed modification. The driveshaft was shortened and balanced.

Here's where it gets intreresting. Mike's shop is one of the only ones in canada that has a full (not partial ie. using a laptop) GT1 diagnostic unit. This is the diagnostic computer used by the dealers to program any ECU/control unit of ALL OBD2 cars. This station can only be purchased by dealers in Canada. However I've imported one for him from the US. This component is key since it also has in its memory all the electronics circut diagrams of ANY car produced by BMW. Further more, it also permits full diagnostic capabilities and simulations.

The next phase was to compare my original wiring diagram with the 2002 e46 M3. Big Difference. The M3 has a completely revised architecture with almost all comunication going directly to the ECU whereas previous generation cars (e.g. e36 variants) had independant compontents. The other challange is the newer generation EWS (anti theft system). This must be aligned three fold (EWS unit, ECU and the electronic signature on the key itself). I've spent a considerable time with the electrical engineer at munich motors comprehending this task at hand. Beleive me it was not an easy one.

As of about two months ago, the car was fully operational and the attention to detail is astounding - event the sports button is there and lights up when pressed. All major compnents have been replaced with e46 M3 counterparts, this includes all engine accessories, etc. I took the car out for a spin and some further testing. We're using original e46 M3 headers and most of the midsection (all the way back to the rear axles - fits like a glove). If you look at the car today, it looks like it came from the factory installed this way. Mike and his team did an excellant job on this conversion, but its not yet quite finished :)

Along the way I've revamped the engire suspension geometry of the car. I've installed a coil over kit (S/A - TC Kliene with 500/500 lb springs), 28mm f. sway bar, e30 M3 forged control arms, eccentric f. bushings, adjustable camber plates, rear suspension and adj. trailing arm bushings. We are also in the process of installing a re-built LS differential (e30 with M roadster back plate). This should be complete end of next week.

Pictures will be posted next week. That's it for now.

T.

JazzM
03-13-2005, 02:13 PM
FYI, Rouge Engineering has completed an S54 swap into an e46 body. This I don't beleive is such a great feat as the electronics is very similar if not identical. ;) Pretty much bolt in.

T.