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just325iS
11-12-2004, 12:48 AM
I was reading a UK mag on the M5 and they say that it only comes in Auto! Is this true? I thought that they were offering a 6spd manual as well. First, the nasty hump on the back, over electronics and now, ONLY AUTO? I can live with the hump but AUTO? Will the new M4 offer auto only? If this is the case, no more BMW's for me. *wave*

tlaselva
11-12-2004, 01:25 AM
I'm fairly certian they'll be SMG, which is NOT an auto.... :rolleyes:

And if you don't know the difference, you'll find a ton of info on it on the net.

ambasah
11-12-2004, 08:53 AM
i can be wrong, but I thought I read somewhere it will be a 7-speed?

Definately no manual will be available, but SMG will be an option.

TheMadChigga
11-12-2004, 09:33 AM
yea SMG 7spd.

SkycityBMW
11-12-2004, 09:42 AM
I'm fairly certian they'll be SMG, which is NOT an auto.... :rolleyes:
And if you don't know the difference, you'll find a ton of info on it on the net.


SMG II . . . http://www.toodarkpark.org/misc/cars/m3/smg/

Waterwings
11-12-2004, 09:57 AM
7 speed smg. I had a guest speaker for my networks class at school and we had Jim McKenzie. He got to drive it on some airport strip in germany and he said he topped out the beast in 5th geaR! This car is gonna own

just325iS
11-12-2004, 01:21 PM
If it doesn't have a clutch, it is an auto box. SMG is just a marketing scam.

HooliGaN*
11-12-2004, 01:26 PM
do f1 cars have a clutch?

bmwm5lover
11-12-2004, 01:48 PM
apparently i was reading on i think it was BMWm5.com orr it was maybe in Automobile magazine, they are contemplating on whter or not to have some manuals roll out for the NA market.

just325iS
11-12-2004, 01:51 PM
all M5 would be owners are f1 drivers? Plus, the f1 gear box cost probably as much as the M5. You can't compare that gear box to SMG. Like I said, a marketing scam. I rather be more involve in the driving, heel and toe and matching revs by myself.

just325iS
11-12-2004, 01:53 PM
If they make a manual, it'll be my next bimmer.

GEEE$
11-12-2004, 02:10 PM
all M5 would be owners are f1 drivers? Plus, the f1 gear box cost probably as much as the M5. You can't compare that gear box to SMG. Like I said, a marketing scam. I rather be more involve in the driving, heel and toe and matching revs by myself.


Please explain to us all why the SMG gearbox is a marketing scam? Does it not function properly? Does it have no merrit? Does it not change gears faster than any human can?

I guess this means nothing? :confused:

"The seven-speed SMG gearbox not only supports the driver in achieving motor sports performance, but also offers scores of safety features. In critical situations, when the driver shifts down on a slippery surface, for example, the gearbox opens the clutch in the fraction of a second in order to prevent the M5 from swerving out of control in the event of excessive drag torque at the driven wheels."

You must know something none of us know...inquiring minds want to know!




G$

duffy325
11-12-2004, 02:27 PM
The reasoning from what I have read for not offering a manual at this point, is because they wanted it too be a 7spd, and so in order to put the shorter gears along the strongest sides of the gearbox in the interest of reliability, the shift pattern had to be something retarded like

1 4 5 6

R 3 7 2

It was something ridiculous like that I can't remember exactly but I'm sure someone else knows.

Anywho that was the reasoning for not having a 7spd manual as far as I know. But I haven't heard why there is no 6spd option. Maybe its because they don't want to have to change the differential etc.. to match the different gearing?

AMG_POWER
11-12-2004, 02:34 PM
1 4 5 6

R 3 7 2

Imagine to race someone with a brand new M5... 1 gear - vrooooooom wanna put second and instead you are in a R rocket mode (backwards tho)... BHBHRHRBRHBRHBhggghgrrghr Your gear box is done:)

No, but seriously it would be very hard to get used to, and you'd loose alot of time switching gears in that pattern even if you get used to it...so SMG is the way to go.... *shiner*

http://www.bmwm5.com/articles/stockholm/27.jpg

BMWF1
11-12-2004, 02:42 PM
all M5 would be owners are f1 drivers? Plus, the f1 gear box cost probably as much as the M5. You can't compare that gear box to SMG. Like I said, a marketing scam. I rather be more involve in the driving, heel and toe and matching revs by myself.

f1 gear box probably costs as much as 10 M5's, and no F1 cars do not have clutchs, they gears change alot faster then SMG II

tlaselva
11-12-2004, 02:50 PM
And all of you who criticize the SMG have driven one for a while and can make an informed and educated decision, right? :rolleyes:

Funny how almost all people who have had SMG have nothing but good to say about it, myself included.

If it doesn't have a clutch, it is an auto box. SMG is just a marketing scam.
And yes, it does have a clutch. It's hydraulically controlled.

The ignorance of the SMG system here is beyond reproach.

just325iS
11-12-2004, 02:51 PM
If you want to "achieve motor sports performace" take your car to the track and practice. When you track your car, you'll find out that it's you that is the weak link, not the car. Track and street is totally different. You can never push as hard on the street as you can on the track.

The M5 is too much car for most drivers, so they make smg to offer "safety features". When you shift down, all you have to do is match the revs and there will be no "swerving out of control". All it takes is a blip of the throtle and clutch release at the right rpm. Yes, it can shift faster, but what fun is pushing a lever. You can do everything smg does for yourself, but, it'll take a lot of practice. But when you do master it, a huge smile will appear on your face.

I'm not the best driver but I do know a little about driving. If you want, I'm willing to show you what I know or better yet, come to the track with me next year. I'll take you as a passenger in my supercharge e36 to show you what I'm talking about. SMG is good for novice but for me, it's a scam. 500hp is not really for a novice driver anyways. Upgrade your skills as a driver and you'll enjoy your car a lot more.

AMG_POWER
11-12-2004, 03:09 PM
If you want to "achieve motor sports performace" take your car to the track and practice. When you track your car, you'll find out that it's you that is the weak link, not the car. Track and street is totally different. You can never push as hard on the street as you can on the track.

The M5 is too much car for most drivers, so they make smg to offer "safety features". When you shift down, all you have to do is match the revs and there will be no "swerving out of control". All it takes is a blip of the throtle and clutch release at the right rpm. Yes, it can shift faster, but what fun is pushing a lever. You can do everything smg does for yourself, but, it'll take a lot of practice. But when you do master it, a huge smile will appear on your face.

I'm not the best driver but I do know a little about driving. If you want, I'm willing to show you what I know or better yet, come to the track with me next year. I'll take you as a passenger in my supercharge e36 to show you what I'm talking about. SMG is good for novice but for me, it's a scam. 500hp is not really for a novice driver anyways. Upgrade your skills as a driver and you'll enjoy your car a lot more.


It's not a scam... U are lol

GEEE$
11-12-2004, 03:16 PM
If you want to "achieve motor sports performace" take your car to the track and practice. When you track your car, you'll find out that it's you that is the weak link, not the car. Track and street is totally different. You can never push as hard on the street as you can on the track.

The M5 is too much car for most drivers, so they make smg to offer "safety features". When you shift down, all you have to do is match the revs and there will be no "swerving out of control". All it takes is a blip of the throtle and clutch release at the right rpm. Yes, it can shift faster, but what fun is pushing a lever. You can do everything smg does for yourself, but, it'll take a lot of practice. But when you do master it, a huge smile will appear on your face.

I'm not the best driver but I do know a little about driving. If you want, I'm willing to show you what I know or better yet, come to the track with me next year. I'll take you as a passenger in my supercharge e36 to show you what I'm talking about. SMG is good for novice but for me, it's a scam. 500hp is not really for a novice driver anyways. Upgrade your skills as a driver and you'll enjoy your car a lot more.


I understand what you're saying, but it's still wrong.

The SMG system was derived because it is better, simple fact. It shifts faster than any human on earth can. Why don't F1 cars have manual transmissions and clutches? Why? I know! It's because they are completely inefective when talking about those types of speeds and revs for those time durations. No human could do it, plain and simple. Are F1 transmissions marketing scams? They use virtually the exact same principle.

Listen, I enjoy a manual over any type of auto...heck, I have a 6spd, but let's be realistic here.

I ask you this...what transmission would produce better track times, a SMG- equiped 2005 M5, or a manual-equiped 2005 M5, with all other factors being completely equal. ??



G$

dutty_mark3
11-12-2004, 03:18 PM
If it doesn't have a clutch, it is an auto box. SMG is just a marketing scam.

automatic transmissions use the same planetary gearing for all gear ratios. manuals use different gears that are switched when the driver disengages the clutch and selects a gear.

smg does have a clutch. it does not have a clutch pedal and traditional gear selector. gear actuation is via computer. if this makes it an "automatic" to you... whatever.

GEEE$
11-12-2004, 03:32 PM
The ignorance of the SMG system here is beyond reproach.



I'm stupified myself at the overwhelming amount of criticism for this incredible computer system, yet virtually everyone that comments on it has no real-world experience using it? :confused:

Baboons...the lot of them.



G$

just325iS
11-13-2004, 01:50 AM
I'm just saying that smg require no skills to use it. It takes away from the driving experience. Does it matter if you arrive at the mall 0.4 seconds faster. I guess I'm old school, but I'll never buy anything that changes gears for you.

just325iS
11-13-2004, 01:50 AM
It's just sad that a M car don't offer manual anymore.

tifosi
11-13-2004, 02:39 AM
It's just sad that a M car don't offer manual anymore.

E60 M5 is only available with clutch pedal less manual.
so is Enzo Ferrari, 360 Challenge Stradale, 575M Maranello HGTC, F430, V12 Vanquish, CSL, Maserati GranSport, Quattroporte, Bugatti Veryon...etc.

i don't really want explain how it works and how it is 100% a manual transmission box, because there are tones of them around the internet. but i just think the advantage behind such gearbox is obvious when sportscars i pointed out are only available with such transmission box.

thinair
11-13-2004, 12:36 PM
If the SMG was considered an automatic, it would have at least a torque converter, which it doesn't. It has a normal flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate. It's just that the tranny ECU controls the clutch work, and the engagement of the gears.

What is wrong with having the car revmatch for you? One less thing to worry about. Don't get me wrong, I've never driven an SMG car, and I love shifting an revmatching myself, but this is the current direction of todays automobile.

Also, an SMG tranny is as efficient as a manual. Unlike an auto box, it does not absorb some of the engines power.

On a side note, how don't F1 cars have clutches? How do they launch? You can't exactly just engage a gear without some semi smooth way of transferring power to the gear wheels.

tifosi
11-13-2004, 01:12 PM
On a side note, how don't F1 cars have clutches? How do they launch? You can't exactly just engage a gear without some semi smooth way of transferring power to the gear wheels.

since launch control is banned by FIA for F1 racing. F1 drivers need to use the clutch peddal (located behind steering wheel generally beside shifting peddals) by hand to launch the car.

but after they launch the car, the F1 racing car's transmission pretty much works exactly like a F1 transmision for the road car, except it's faster, much much faster. :)

just325iS
11-14-2004, 06:21 PM
I just don't like the trend of giving up more and more control to a computer. Look at active steering. It counter-steers for you when your rear end comes loose. It comes down to, what is the definition of "driving"? Too me, it is you doing it yourself.

"What's wrong with having the car match-revs for you?" It takes no skill, any idiot can push a button. Lets see, two M5 lines up at the light, both select launch control, light turns green. Wow, what a race. So much skilled involve. I wonder why F1 banned launch control?

Before the supercharger, I beat up a lot of 328 with my 325 because I had a better launch when we were racing light to light. Sometimes I'll lose to a car that had less power because my lauch was bad or missed a shift. F1 banned the launch control because it would make the start more exciting. When Alonso jump from 9th to 3rd at the start, that is skilled. If there were launch control, you think he could have done that?

So many reference to F1 yet nothing between road cars and F1 cars are the same. That is good marketing. Enzo and all the other cars that carries this type of tranny, I don't have respect for either.

AMG_POWER
11-14-2004, 06:38 PM
STOP whining...

TiemenT
11-14-2004, 06:39 PM
Smg Rocks

Jon@Bimmersport
11-14-2004, 08:16 PM
i somewhat agree to justin, i mean..obviously i never tried SMG, prolly wont for a long time too...but, doesnt it get boring? but from performance perspectives...having a computer control your clutch and gearing is consistant timing for you, and on top of it..SMG ECU tuning will prolly come out soon i bet, giving the clutch faster reaction times or somethin like that..dont u guys think?

T.Dot_E30
11-14-2004, 09:12 PM
Look at active steering. It counter-steers for you when your rear end comes loose. It comes down to, what is the definition of "driving"? Too me, it is you doing it yourself.
.

Active Steering varies the ratio of the steering. I've never heard of it steering the car for u.

Have you driven any of these cars and experienced it for yourself?
If not your being very iqnorant, If you have then forgive me.......

For normal driving, which believe it or not more ppl in this world do....makes parking and avoiding pot holes way easier.......

As for SMG, I've never driven one yet.....from what i can see, it doesn't look that bad.

Here i found an article.

The concept of Active Front Steering is based around a planetary gear set, such as found in most automatic transmissions. A planetary gear set is made up of three main components: the sun gear in the center, a set of planet gears (several gears in a unit that rotate around the sun gear, and a ring gear around the outside that has internal teeth meshing with the planet gears. Any one of the three components can be the drive input and any can be the output, as long as one or more of the components is held. This provides a variety of gear ratios in forward and reverse. In the BMW steering system, a small planetary gear set is located between the steering wheel and the conventional steering rack. BMW calls this unit a superimposing gear.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/031112.htm

AMG_POWER
11-14-2004, 09:26 PM
330 has active steering?

I thought they first presented it on a new 5 series?!?

tifosi
11-14-2004, 09:32 PM
Active Steering varies the ratio of the steering. I've never heard of it steering the car for u.

Have you driven any of these cars and experienced it for yourself?
If not your being very iqnorant, If you have then forgive me.......I've driven my cusins 330ci with active steering. I think its pretty good for everyday driving, the only problem comes when ur pushing your car on a track and ur countering steering, its hard to judge what ratio the steering well be in........I heard often times you end up countering steering too much bcus of it.

For normal driving, which believe it or not more ppl in this world do....makes parking and avoiding pot holes way easier.......with my e30 i'd practically have to turn the steering wheel close 45 degree to avoid a pothole quicky....with the 330ci. It takes way less movement of the steering wheel to achieve that.

As for SMG, I've never driven one yet.....from what i can see, it doesn't look that bad.

Here i found an article.

The concept of Active Front Steering is based around a planetary gear set, such as found in most automatic transmissions. A planetary gear set is made up of three main components: the sun gear in the center, a set of planet gears (several gears in a unit that rotate around the sun gear, and a ring gear around the outside that has internal teeth meshing with the planet gears. Any one of the three components can be the drive input and any can be the output, as long as one or more of the components is held. This provides a variety of gear ratios in forward and reverse. In the BMW steering system, a small planetary gear set is located between the steering wheel and the conventional steering rack. BMW calls this unit a superimposing gear.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/031112.htm


lol, now you are the one that's being ignorant.
active steering was first available on 5-series. and it is only available on 5 and 6-series at the moment.

so your cousin's car doesn't have active steering.

T.Dot_E30
11-14-2004, 09:37 PM
my bad, i remember reading something on the steering of the 330, i guess i mixed it up with something else then

Besides my point was it wont countersteer for you, it jus makes the car more stable.

AMG_POWER
11-14-2004, 10:38 PM
my bad, i remember reading something on the steering of the 330, i guess i mixed it up with something else then

Besides my point was it wont countersteer for you, it jus makes the car more stable.


The system was developed by BMW in cooperation with the ZF Lenksysteme GmbH. For the first time, this system does away with the fixed ratio between steering-wheel angle and wheel deflection, offering the ideal steering ratio at all speeds. The steering column incorporates a planetary gearbox with servo motor, which increases wheel deflection at low speeds and reduces it at high speeds. This concept increases the car's agility on winding roads as steering is much more direct. The driver needs to turn the steering wheel much less and with much less effort. The system boosts not only dynamics and agility but also comfort. Getting into a parking space, for example, requires no more than two steering-wheel revolutions instead of the conventional three to turn the wheels from right to left and vice versa.

tifosi
11-14-2004, 10:45 PM
my bad, i remember reading something on the steering of the 330, i guess i mixed it up with something else then

Besides my point was it wont countersteer for you, it jus makes the car more stable.

but you pointed out a very good point of Active Steering *th-up*

i've driven both 5 and 6-series with active steering. and thought the system is quite nice. it certainly will reduce a lot of effort driving in a tight parking complex. not a bad system at all for daily driving. :)

just325iS
11-15-2004, 05:52 PM
Hey Tifosi, Porsche customers were whining and look at the new 911. The mighty Porsche GT comes only in manual and so does the GT3. Looks like I'll be buying a Porsche next if BMW don't fix their styling or start offerring manuals for their M cars.

Yes I did try the SMG on the E46 M3. It was cool at first but it just got boring afterwards. Feels like I was driving an automatic.

SpudBoy
11-15-2004, 06:19 PM
I'm not a big fan of electronics such as steering and SMG but I can't ignore the fact that SMG will deliver a quicker lap time all other things being equal.

tifosi
11-15-2004, 06:35 PM
Hey Tifosi, Porsche customers were whining and look at the new 911. The mighty Porsche GT comes only in manual and so does the GT3. Looks like I'll be buying a Porsche next if BMW don't fix their styling or start offerring manuals for their M cars.

Yes I did try the SMG on the E46 M3. It was cool at first but it just got boring afterwards. Feels like I was driving an automatic.

I think Porsche didn't put F1 transmission is because they did not have the resources to implement it in time for the introduction of Carrera GT.

Porsche is still a very small company comparably. they had to pull all their factory racing program (FIA GT, LeMans…etc) off just so they can have enough resource to build the Carrera GT. not to mention the fact that they had to keep an SUV in their line up just so they can make enough of money to sustain their new factory in Leipiez where Carrera GT is built.

I’ve read an article some where a while ago about the transmission box on the Carrera GT. And the guy responsible for Carrera GT said the DSG transmission was once the transmission they had in mind. But because the VW sourced DSG wasn't very well developed at the time (just look at the troublesome Bugatti Veryon, which uses 7-speed DSG...or hopefully it will) so they had to drop the plan for that.

And I am sure if Porsche had the technology at the time, they'd use it, because it just make much more sense from marketing point of view (sadly) and it will also be easier to maintain. They will have it sooner rather than later though. I heard DSG transmission will be available for the 997 turbo when it is introduced about this time next year.

i don't want to say which type of transmission i prefer right now. and that's simply because i haven't had a chance to drive SMG on a daily basis for a considerable time. but to be quite honest, whether you like it or not, this is the future. the future manual transmission will slowly be replaced by F1 transmissions. and new cars will keep getting more and more electronic devices. it is just an inevitable fact. but at the same time, there are also a lot of very pure, exciting, and simple classic cars around. you can always buy an old car if you think new stuff isn't for you. :)


P.S. sorry, but i don't quite get what you mean by "Porsche customers were whining" :)

ROCKETMAN
11-15-2004, 11:00 PM
I understand what you're saying, but it's still wrong.

The SMG system was derived because it is better, simple fact. It shifts faster than any human on earth can. Why don't F1 cars have manual transmissions and clutches? Why? I know! It's because they are completely inefective when talking about those types of speeds and revs for those time durations. No human could do it, plain and simple. Are F1 transmissions marketing scams? They use virtually the exact same principle.

Listen, I enjoy a manual over any type of auto...heck, I have a 6spd, but let's be realistic here.

I ask you this...what transmission would produce better track times, a SMG- equiped 2005 M5, or a manual-equiped 2005 M5, with all other factors being completely equal. ??



G$
K, but you have to understand taht this is not a race car. Millions of dollars will not depend on miliseconds on teh track that u do.
Yes its faster. But also a lot less fun. F1 cars have them because in F1 its all abou tthe times. And consu,er sports cars are supposed to be abou tfun.

ROCKETMAN
11-15-2004, 11:03 PM
I'm stupified myself at the overwhelming amount of criticism for this incredible computer system, yet virtually everyone that comments on it has no real-world experience using it? :confused:

Baboons...the lot of them.



G$

Exactly why. Because we dont want "efficient computers". We want "passionate CARS"

e30m3_78rus
11-16-2004, 12:16 AM
M5 was never a track car, just like noone buys a 6 series for track.

I can't even picture in 10 years someone is going to buy a e90 for racing purposes? Fix the smg, or active steering (which will probably get implemented into 3series).

E30s and even E36s will be hard to find, so what are we going to drive for fun even if its not just for racing. I understand that SMG can be fun, but launching, clutchkickin for drifting and other very fun applications of the clutch cannot be replaced by pressing buttons. Sure you will do your windy run in your neiborhood 0.1 sec faster, but you won't feel what we all feel after a windy road today(well, atleast the poor ones without SMG).

tifosi
11-16-2004, 02:10 AM
well, if you are looking for pure "funness", which i am sure there are a big group of people like us :) .

i guess we can always build cars like Caterham, Radical, Westfield or Arial in our garage on our own. i bet no other type of track cars are more fun that that. *th-up*

e30m3_78rus
11-16-2004, 02:58 AM
well, if you are looking for pure "funness", which i am sure there are a big group of people like us :) .

i guess we can always build cars like Caterham, Radical, Westfield or Arial in our garage on our own. i bet no other type of track cars are more fun that that. *th-up*


That's true, but it would be much cheaper for a big manufacturer to make those cars, and they wouldn't be a hassle to own, insure or warranty, plus they can have race engeneers working on it, and another big plus for me is that it would look stealth, and a little played out so noone is going to stare at you everywhere. Another thing is we can have a quick shifter kart for even less, but I am talking about fun involved in daily driving. When you take the extra time after work or on your lunch break to go to "your" road just because you feel the suddent urge to rip through the twisties. No traction control, no active steering, no ABS, no SMG, no brake assists. Am I too young to sacrifise comfort, safety, useless electronics and a bunch of weight just for that urge? Sure. Am one of very few? Probably. That's why noone makes cars for me anymore, because a couple of people with that daily urge are not worth BMW's expenses.

tifosi
11-16-2004, 03:12 AM
That's true, but it would be much cheaper for a big manufacturer to make those cars, and they wouldn't be a hassle to own, insure or warranty, plus they can have race engeneers working on it, and another big plus for me is that it would look stealth, and a little played out so noone is going to stare at you everywhere. Another thing is we can have a quick shifter kart for even less, but I am talking about fun involved in daily driving. When you take the extra time after work or on your lunch break to go to "your" road just because you feel the suddent urge to rip through the twisties. No traction control, no active steering, no ABS, no SMG, no brake assists. Am I too young to sacrifise comfort, safety, useless electronics and a bunch of weight just for that urge? Sure. Am one of very few? Probably. That's why noone makes cars for me anymore, because a couple of people with that daily urge are not worth BMW's expenses.

your ideas all sounds very appealing, but that's only from car guy's perspective.

big car companies are there to make money. and when 90% of the public aren't interested in cars like this. i really don't see why they should do a hardcore, back to basic type of cars we are talking here. this just doesn't make any sense from marketing point of view. and that's why i brought up small companies like Radical and the likes, since they are practically run by engineers, but not businessman.

GEEE$
11-16-2004, 08:36 AM
K, but you have to understand taht this is not a race car. Millions of dollars will not depend on miliseconds on teh track that u do.
Yes its faster. But also a lot less fun. F1 cars have them because in F1 its all abou tthe times. And consu,er sports cars are supposed to be abou tfun.


R-man...I completely agree....I was just stating the facts that it will produce faster times, no question about it. And truthfully, I really would call it a race car. Any car with over 500hp, rwd, and 7spds is a racecar in my books, regardless of manufacturer/look/feel/number of doors/transmission. That V10 powerplant is a deadly, race-derived engine.

Like I said...I would never want an smg-equiped vehicle(at the current time)...but we're all looking at the future, whether we like it or not.




G$

ROCKETMAN
11-16-2004, 05:40 PM
i hpe ure wrong:) Hopefullysome manufacturers will continue to build manual transmision powerful cars.

just325iS
11-16-2004, 08:19 PM
Tifosi, they said the headlights were ugly, the interior were too cheap, the rear end to narrow. The new 911 has a wide rear track, better interior, and the old shape headlights. Porsche listens to their customers, I hope BMW will do the same. The styling really sucks right now.

In 1992 when they just came out with the e36 someone asked the engineers why is there now cup holders. They said that this is "the ultimate driving machine". There is no place for cup holders here. Look at what they got now, I-drive and all that crap that takes away from the driving. If you don't believe me, just take a look at my car, no cup holders.

I know that BMW are trying to attract a different type of buyer but how can they forget their roots. They are going to mainstream. Like one of my friend said "the ultimate simulation".

Hey Rocketman, their is manufacture that haven't forgotten us. Lotus Elise, under 2000 pounds and bare to the metal.

just325iS
11-16-2004, 08:24 PM
Hey e30m3, forget fixing those cars. Even the dealers are having a hard time fixing I-drive right now. Imagine trying to fix I-drive ten years from now. SMG, I think I'll cost less to buy another car than to fix it.

e30m3_78rus
11-16-2004, 09:26 PM
Hey e30m3, forget fixing those cars. Even the dealers are having a hard time fixing I-drive right now. Imagine trying to fix I-drive ten years from now. SMG, I think I'll cost less to buy another car than to fix it.

That's exactly what I was saying. Does anyone repair TVs or radios, or any electronics really? No, they buy new ones. Cars will be the same very soon. Our precious old cars will die out just like tape players.

Funny thing is in 20 years, e36 will be the newest oldskool, because anything over e46 will be too hard to work on.

tifosi
11-16-2004, 09:28 PM
Tifosi, they said the headlights were ugly, the interior were too cheap, the rear end to narrow. The new 911 has a wide rear track, better interior, and the old shape headlights. Porsche listens to their customers, I hope BMW will do the same. The styling really sucks right now.

In 1992 when they just came out with the e36 someone asked the engineers why is there now cup holders. They said that this is "the ultimate driving machine". There is no place for cup holders here. Look at what they got now, I-drive and all that crap that takes away from the driving. If you don't believe me, just take a look at my car, no cup holders.

I know that BMW are trying to attract a different type of buyer but how can they forget their roots. They are going to mainstream. Like one of my friend said "the ultimate simulation".

Hey Rocketman, their is manufacture that haven't forgotten us. Lotus Elise, under 2000 pounds and bare to the metal.

funny you mention Lotus. because as of now, you can get options such as Air-Con, Radio, electric window, carpet...etc on the Elise 111R. and they dump the Rover K-series engine for a Toyota engine. they are trying to survive in this curel world by putting things people like into the car whether the car truely need it or not.

designers don't and can't listen to customer and design what they claim they want. that's the simple rule of design, and it is because customers don't know what they want. rather, designers can try to figure out what customers don't like on a car, and avoid that. i know it sounds strange, but give it some thought, and you'll see why.

as for Porsche. i don't really see it as they listen to their customer. rather, i think they are afraid of changes. sure there are group of traditionlists that prefer the round headlamp. but what's wrong with the headlight on 996? i thought the ones on turbo and revised 996 looks quite good, if not better than the current one. and let's say if they indeed did what everybody ask Porsche to do with the 997, then 997 should be a big success right? WRONG, Porsche is already discounting the car for as high as 15k CDN (don't quote me though) just to get the 997 off their showroom, despite the fact beneth the skin 997 is still an impressive machine.

the topic we are discussing is simply not a yes/no question. i am sure the current styling route BMW's taking isn't pleasing everyone, but undeniably there are still a group of people that think they still look as attractive as ever.

and since when did BMW started to put cup holders in their car? i know there's 2 circular thing in my E39, but i don't think you can possibly hold any drink on that stupid thing right?? :D

SpudBoy
11-16-2004, 09:36 PM
possibly the worst thread ever? :D