PDA

View Full Version : E30 vs. CLK 430


MatyBMW
07-03-2002, 12:47 PM
I don't know a lot about the CLK 430. But I do know that it is a fast car.

A CLK challenged me on 16th and kennedy the other night for a couple of stop lights. The results were better than i expected.

I thought he would blow me out of the water but one light I got a head of him and beat him. This was probably due to my quick shifting and double clutching. I'm not sure why he was lagging behind but i managed to take him. The next run, he was a head of me about a car length until 80km/h and then 1.5 car lengths until 120km/h.

Wondering what the horse power is on those CLK's. It appeared to be a 2001.

M3ntal Kev
07-03-2002, 02:19 PM
~295hp with similar torque

Mr seville
07-03-2002, 02:26 PM
275hp and 268 torque

KJ-M3
07-03-2002, 03:05 PM
Sup Matt, guess who this is!!!

MatyBMW
07-03-2002, 04:08 PM
KJ-M3 Sup Matt, guess who this is!!!

Not sure. I don't personally know anyone with an E46 M3..

Who is it?

KIRASIR
07-03-2002, 05:11 PM
Double clutching and quick shifting don't go together. You can't shift gear quickly with double clutching by definition since you have to do twice as many steps as during normal shifting. Double clutching during upshifts is useless all together. I have no idea what you were doing but it was definitely not double clutching. Gotta love Fast and Furious for totally messing up people's minds about double clutching.

Look in the archives..all the way back, there should be a couple of posts that explain it in full.

SL

Originally posted by MatyBMW
This was probably due to my quick shifting and double clutching. I'm not sure why he was lagging behind but i managed to take him.

MatyBMW
07-03-2002, 05:52 PM
To my knowledge, the point of double clutching is to jump you up into a higher RPM range. That is just what i did, and it works. Thats all i know.

LLLLLLAAAAATTTTTEEEEEEE

SickFinga
07-03-2002, 07:10 PM
ok there is 2 "double clutching" versions
1. You press clutch 2 time before shifting.
2. When you accelerate, you just quickly press and release the clutch for that little push.

so which one are you talking about


btw: both of them useless.

MatyBMW
07-03-2002, 07:32 PM
I used version 2. I'm sure they are not ENTIRELY useless, otherwise there wouldn't be a word to describe that clutching procedure.

SickFinga
07-03-2002, 07:40 PM
hah, there is a lot of useless stuff on internet.

KJ-M3
07-03-2002, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by MatyBMW


Not sure. I don't personally know anyone with an E46 M3..

Who is it?

You know me...I used to drive a Turbocharged Integra Type-R. We both like Mame Emulation Games etc. I'm friends with your GF too!

KJ-M3
07-03-2002, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by MatyBMW
To my knowledge, the point of double clutching is to jump you up into a higher RPM range. That is just what i did, and it works. Thats all i know.

LLLLLLAAAAATTTTTEEEEEEE

BTW, you don't use double clutching when you're accelerating.
Double clutching is this:

Clutch in
Shifter into neutral
Clutch out
Rev the engine up to proper RPM
Clutch in
Shifter into proper gear
Clutch out

Double clutching is for downshifting and was only neccesary in the 70's etc. when transmission's had no synchro's. This is useless for any modern car.

mike125k
07-04-2002, 12:11 AM
yea this is one of those stupid lines that came from fast & furious. just like "I got NAWS!" its not Naws, its N-O-S or giggle gas, bottle feeding, nitrous, etc. like was said before, double clutching is useless on new cars with syncros.

MatyBMW
07-04-2002, 12:27 AM
Kelsin -

When did you get your M3?
Did you pay for any of it :D

GR8 Ride
07-04-2002, 12:31 AM
And to further add to this useless discussion...it's not even double-clutching on the downshift.

On the downshift, it's heel and toe....and you don't let out the clutch between gears.

However, it's quite surprising how many people have little to no idea of how to actually heel and toe in their car...on the streets even, much less on the track.


The only thing anybody learned from the Fast and the Futile is how many brain cells can be destroyed simply by watching a movie...


Pat

ThE bRoWn GuY
07-04-2002, 04:03 AM
That was pretty funny 'bad karma' lol...

KJ-M3
07-04-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by MatyBMW
Kelsin -

When did you get your M3?
Did you pay for any of it :D

Sup man. I got it 2 Friday's ago, so it's just under 2 weeks old! =)

I pay for half the car payment and half the insurance payment.

And I contributed $3,500 to the downpayment. *th-up*

KIRASIR
07-04-2002, 10:18 AM
It depends on the downshift that has to be done. I would like to see you downshif from 5th to 2nd(4th to 1st) with just a simple rev-matching.

It is doable, of course, but how long the synchros can handle such abuse?

SL

Originally posted by Bad-Karma
And to further add to this useless discussion...it's not even double-clutching on the downshift.

On the downshift, it's heel and toe....and you don't let out the clutch between gears.

However, it's quite surprising how many people have little to no idea of how to actually heel and toe in their car...on the streets even, much less on the track.


The only thing anybody learned from the Fast and the Futile is how many brain cells can be destroyed simply by watching a movie...


Pat

SickFinga
07-04-2002, 10:22 AM
Originally posted by KIRASIR
It depends on the downshift that has to be done. I would like to see you downshif from 5th to 2nd(4th to 1st) with just a simple rev-matching.

It is doable, of course, but how long the synchros can handle such abuse?

SL




downshifting from 5th to 2nd?
that's a good idea :D :D :D
I can easilly dowshift from 5th to 2nd if I drive slower than 100km/h and from 4th to 1st if I drive 60km/h or slower

KIRASIR
07-04-2002, 10:46 AM
Now try that at 160km/h at the top of 4th braking to 40 and going into 1st.

:)



Originally posted by SickFinga



downshifting from 5th to 2nd?
that's a good idea :D :D :D
I can easilly dowshift from 5th to 2nd if I drive slower than 100km/h and from 4th to 1st if I drive 60km/h or slower

SickFinga
07-04-2002, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by KIRASIR
Now try that at 160km/h at the top of 4th braking to 40 and going into 1st.

:)






I can try that if you are willing to pay for a new engine

KIRASIR
07-04-2002, 11:17 AM
You coming to the auto-cross on 14th? :D

Originally posted by SickFinga



I can try that if you are willing to pay for a new engine

SickFinga
07-04-2002, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by KIRASIR
You coming to the auto-cross on 14th? :D



I think so, you?

KIRASIR
07-04-2002, 11:55 AM
I am planning to.

Originally posted by SickFinga


I think so, you?

MatyBMW
07-04-2002, 01:36 PM
Kelsin aka KJ-M3

More importantly. Welcome to the forum bud!!! Can't wait to see \ Drive :) your car ..

GR8 Ride
07-04-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by KIRASIR
It depends on the downshift that has to be done. I would like to see you downshif from 5th to 2nd(4th to 1st) with just a simple rev-matching.

It is doable, of course, but how long the synchros can handle such abuse?

SL



Generally as a rule, downshifts from 5th to 2nd are much harder on the engine (ie, valves and pistons getting to know each other really well....), rather than being hard on the synchro's.

Why anyone would willingly downshift from 5th to 2nd (or 4th to 1st) at anything other than 10 km/h pulling up to a stoplight is beyond me. Sorry, but 5 to 2 downshifts are done by people who shortly thereafter pay big $$$ to their mechanics to have a new engine dropped into their car....

So, basically you'd be at 2400 RPM in fifth gear, and downshifting directly to 2, and you'd *almost* be at the point of over-revving your engine (based on stock rev limiters). This is for a standard, E36 with a 3.15 rear diff, and 235/40/17 tires all around. Max speed in 2nd gear is 91 Km/h....

Once again, for all you guys who learned everything you know about driving from the Fast and the Futile, give it up. You don't double-clutch on the downshift (much less the upshift), you simply heel and toe. And more importantly, ANYBODY who downshifts from 5 to 2 on the track is an idiot. And there simply isn't much of a reason to downshift from 5-2 on the street (unless you pull up to stoplights in 5th gear...)

Pat

KIRASIR
07-04-2002, 04:17 PM
I understand you have a lot of track experience, and that you are good driver. Then could you please give us your opinion regarding this scenario:

1) You are at the track racing against time
2) At the end of the straight doing ~200km/h
3) You are about to enter a 180 degree turn, very tight
4) The entry speed should be no more than 70km/h for this turn, and for your car.

Your actions?

SL


Originally posted by Bad-Karma


Generally as a rule, downshifts from 5th to 2nd are much harder on the engine (ie, valves and pistons getting to know each other really well....), rather than being hard on the synchro's.

Why anyone would willingly downshift from 5th to 2nd (or 4th to 1st) at anything other than 10 km/h pulling up to a stoplight is beyond me. Sorry, but 5 to 2 downshifts are done by people who shortly thereafter pay big $$$ to their mechanics to have a new engine dropped into their car....

So, basically you'd be at 2400 RPM in fifth gear, and downshifting directly to 2, and you'd *almost* be at the point of over-revving your engine (based on stock rev limiters). This is for a standard, E36 with a 3.15 rear diff, and 235/40/17 tires all around. Max speed in 2nd gear is 91 Km/h....

Once again, for all you guys who learned everything you know about driving from the Fast and the Futile, give it up. You don't double-clutch on the downshift (much less the upshift), you simply heel and toe. And more importantly, ANYBODY who downshifts from 5 to 2 on the track is an idiot. And there simply isn't much of a reason to downshift from 5-2 on the street (unless you pull up to stoplights in 5th gear...)

Pat

Lil'Smoothie
07-04-2002, 07:16 PM
I always wondered why they said double clutching in fast and the furious, i thoguht it was only for truck drivers?

also when ppl talk about power shifting when racing arent they full of sh!t once again? You can only power shift at certain RPM's without grinding gears so it wouldnt be fast it your shifting at 4 g's

Lil'Smoothie
07-04-2002, 07:21 PM
as for the race im pretty sure a CLK 430 would jack the average E30 6 cylinder. im not calling you a liar, maybe he just didnt put it down cuz arent those things V8's?

Off the line maybe an E30 would win, outta first gear just cuz the benz is auto, but a CLK320 pulled up beside me acting a fool and I downed it to second and sqauked the tires and pulled away but I stopped cuz I didn't wanna be going to fast plus i'm sure he would blew by me after 2nd gear

KJ-M3
07-04-2002, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Bad-Karma


Generally as a rule, downshifts from 5th to 2nd are much harder on the engine (ie, valves and pistons getting to know each other really well....), rather than being hard on the synchro's.

Why anyone would willingly downshift from 5th to 2nd (or 4th to 1st) at anything other than 10 km/h pulling up to a stoplight is beyond me. Sorry, but 5 to 2 downshifts are done by people who shortly thereafter pay big $$$ to their mechanics to have a new engine dropped into their car....

That is definitely not true for all cars...

I did 5th to 2nd downshifts all the time in my Integra Type-R.

Going at 60-80 km/h in 5th gear, I would downshift to 2nd (Say to do a quick pass or to race someone) all the time. 2nd gear goes up to 100 km/h. As long as you downshift into 2nd going LESS than 100 km/h (in my old car's case) you'll be fine.

I had the car 4 years, and the engine was always fine, and the tranny NEVER had any problems with Synchro's. Furthermore, I put OVER 120,000 kms on the car and I never babied it. The car was tracked numerous times and spent almost a year of it's life Turbocharged.

SickFinga
07-04-2002, 10:41 PM
yep that's what I'm trying to say downshifting from any gear to lower and you know that with downshifting overrev your engine is simply stupid. Ofcause nothing will happened is you are driving 10km/h in5th and downshift to 1st.


e36 m3 2nd gear takes you up to ~99km/h

Kirasir, I dunno sh*t about racing, but I'n pretty sure you don't downshift at those speeds to 2nd gear.
ever saw a video where guy accidently downshifts from 3rd(at the rev limiter) to 2nd? let me tell you, you don't want that. Like
Bad-Karma said, you don't want that valve meet your pistons.

Kirasir, if you ask me what would I do, I woud just ress the brake pedal, lower my speed to about 180 and downshift to 4th, and continue doing that till second gear.



KJ-M3, can you post what are the top speeds in Type R in every gear?
for my car it is apprx.
1st - 60
2nd - 100
3rd - 140
4th - 190
5 - no idea

GR8 Ride
07-04-2002, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by KJ-M3


That is definitely not true for all cars...

I did 5th to 2nd downshifts all the time in my Integra Type-R.

Going at 60-80 km/h in 5th gear, I would downshift to 2nd (Say to do a quick pass or to race someone) all the time. 2nd gear goes up to 100 km/h. As long as you downshift into 2nd going LESS than 100 km/h (in my old car's case) you'll be fine.

I had the car 4 years, and the engine was always fine, and the tranny NEVER had any problems with Synchro's. Furthermore, I put OVER 120,000 kms on the car and I never babied it. The car was tracked numerous times and spent almost a year of it's life Turbocharged.

I'm talking about driving on the track, not on the street. People can get away with really stupid stuff on the street, that would blow an engine on the track.

Still, it makes little sense to spend all that time lugging the engine in 5th gear around town, particularly when the power band for the engine is sitting much higher.

If you're driving so slow that you can easily downshift from 5th to 2nd without mechanically over-revving the engine, then you're driving around town with your motor lugging. This is particularly true for small displacement (ie, low torque) 4 and 6 cylinder engines. Lugging an engine around when you're below the start of the torque curve tends to run the engine rich, and carbon up the motor. A better idea is to drive around in 4th gear, since at 50 km/h, fuel economy isn't going to vary much from 4th to 5th gear.

Pat

GR8 Ride
07-04-2002, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by KIRASIR
I understand you have a lot of track experience, and that you are good driver. Then could you please give us your opinion regarding this scenario:

1) You are at the track racing against time
2) At the end of the straight doing ~200km/h
3) You are about to enter a 180 degree turn, very tight
4) The entry speed should be no more than 70km/h for this turn, and for your car.

Your actions?

SL




200 km/h would probably have most cars near the high end of 4th gear, and not necessarily 5th. However, even in 5th, you NEVER downshift directly from 5th to 2nd deliberately. If you do, guess what, you're now picking up little pieces of pistons out of your engine bay, as there is no device short of an automatic transmission (or clutchless manual) which can prevent a mechanical over-rev. Those BMW engines just aren't designed to run at 9000+ RPM...

Most good drivers will downshift 5th-4th, 4th-3rd in that scenario, doing the heel/toe dance twice. It's a scenario in which a lightweight flywheel comes in handy, as you can maximize your ability to match revs in the minimal amount of time. Anyhow, a scenario like this is probably something like Turn 4 at Mosport into Turn 5. At the exit of 4, I'm doing about 200 Km/h (redline in 4th...), and downshifting to 3rd. Once my new diff is in, I'll be running through turn 4 in 5th gear, which means I'll need to downshift twice going into turn 5 (which is about a 85 km/h turn).

As well, even at 70 km/h, there isn't much need to drop to 2nd gear. In 2nd, you're near the end of your torque curve, and will have to shift in the middle of the corner back up to 3rd (which is a bad idea, generally...).

If you stay in 3rd through the corner, then you can utilize the full torque curve, and avoid the wasted time of downshifting a third time in the corner.

This is the same reason why so called *power-shifting* is an absolutely useless idea on the track (and a waste of time on the street as well). Shifting without the clutch saves ZERO time on the track, and opens up LOTS of opportunity to a blown shift, either up or down. When I used to run FF-2000 cars at Shannonville (et al), we would measure how much time we would lose in a blown shift. Each and every time, best case scenario, was 8 seconds. For the 1/10th of a second you might actually gain from powershifting, you have the potential to lose 8+ seconds. A tenth of a second is minimal to make up on a lap, but 8 seconds is a HUGE margin, should you find yourself suddenly down by that much.


Pat

KJ-M3
07-05-2002, 11:46 AM
Power Shifting is shifting WITHOUT taking your foot off the gas, but you STILL use the clutch! I think there was some confusion.

KJ-M3
07-05-2002, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by SickFinga
KJ-M3, can you post what are the top speeds in Type R in every gear?
for my car it is apprx.
1st - 60
2nd - 100
3rd - 140
4th - 190
5 - no idea

1st - 60
2nd - 100
3rd - 155
4th - 200 (approx).
5 - 240

SickFinga
07-05-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by KJ-M3
Power Shifting is shifting WITHOUT taking your foot off the gas, but you STILL use the clutch! I think there was some confusion.


hmm how do you call it when you don't use the clutch to shift gears?

Lil'Smoothie
07-05-2002, 01:00 PM
my bad, whats the point in power shifting than? when you push the clutch the revs will shoot way up and than when thecar is back in gear wont you have hesitation and a real ugly jerk action?

GR8 Ride
07-05-2002, 01:56 PM
My point exactly. IE, there is NO point in powershifting your car.

There are two flavours of powershifting; shifting without taking your foot off the gas, which has the result you've indicated, and shifting without using the clutch (which tends to be hard on gearsets, and is prone to mis-shifts).

Either one is a waste of time, on the street, and especially on the track.


Pat

KJ-M3
07-06-2002, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Bad-Karma
My point exactly. IE, there is NO point in powershifting your car.

There are two flavours of powershifting; shifting without taking your foot off the gas, which has the result you've indicated, and shifting without using the clutch (which tends to be hard on gearsets, and is prone to mis-shifts).

Either one is a waste of time, on the street, and especially on the track.


Pat

Powershifting (if you shift fast enough) won't cause the rev's to go up that much. If your clutch can hold the power, you can feel a big surge after the shift. It's good for a .1 second or so improvement in your 1/4 mile time. I don't use it since I think the wear and tear on the car is not worth the .1 second advantage.

328power
07-28-2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by MatyBMW
I don't know a lot about the CLK 430. But I do know that it is a fast car.

A CLK challenged me on 16th and kennedy the other night for a couple of stop lights. The results were better than i expected.

I thought he would blow me out of the water but one light I got a head of him and beat him. This was probably due to my quick shifting and double clutching. I'm not sure why he was lagging behind but i managed to take him. The next run, he was a head of me about a car length until 80km/h and then 1.5 car lengths until 120km/h.

Wondering what the horse power is on those CLK's. It appeared to be a 2001.

The guy accross the street from me has the CLK430 AMG

ITs DAmn FAST !!! and like 120 G's

JT-BlackBimmer
08-21-2002, 10:20 PM
Umm, are you referring to a CLK 55? I think that's the only real AMG CLK - others just have the AMG body kit.

M3Pilot
08-25-2002, 07:19 AM
I got to admit you guys crack me up when it comes to driving a manual car .

So of you have a good understanding of then like Bad-Karma.
I guess it becaus eyou mainly brought up driving Auto and pass your driving tests with these, them teach yourselfs how to drive a manual car.
Over here most cars are manual an if you pass your driving test in an Auto your not allowed to drive a manual without re taking your test in one.

It seem to come up att the time double clutching, power shifting, adn that pressing the clutch in while accelerating thing LOL.
What the hell is that suppose to do other than wear your clutch out.
If anything your going to lose time as your taking the drive/ power away from the wheels.

The Fast and the Furious has a lot to answer to. Remember guys it was a film as it might not be true what there saying.