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View Full Version : Announcement: Shell gas can cause problems with fuel sensor


DunDan
05-27-2002, 08:44 AM
I just heard on the news (Citytv) that Shell Canada just released an annoucment that their gas contains a fuel additive that causes build up of sludge on the fuel sensor. May cause your car fuel sensor to read empty even on a full tank. They will repair sensor damage done by calling 1-866-900-9100.

Furious
05-27-2002, 03:17 PM
This is actually nothing new,, supposidly shell has been selling gas that is very bad for you fuel system for a while,, the people who take care of our work trucks posted a notice NOT to use fuel from shell because about 250 trucks out of 3000 went to shit after using shell.......

WoLF
05-27-2002, 03:57 PM
Do you think this would apply to the USA also?

WASABI
05-27-2002, 04:02 PM
I just put half a tank's worth, other people have been telling me to try them out (GOLD), I've been going to Esso ever since I got my first car,sometimes Sunoco, so i guess I better flush out the Shell GOLD soon!

SickFinga
05-27-2002, 05:16 PM
My mechanic said that Shell sell the worst fuel in Canada.

330DTM
05-27-2002, 05:31 PM
Oh My God!
Thanks for letting me know now guys!
My parents always told me to fill up w/Shell and sometimes my fuel sensor on the E36 goes whacky!
Even when we got it replaced and refilled it a couple days later it was still whacky!

Is it too late now that my fuel sensor is damaged even if I start using Esso now?

SickFinga
05-27-2002, 05:34 PM
since we are talking about gas, why in europe they use 95, 95e, 98e, 99 gas
and we just got 94?

Phantom
05-27-2002, 06:00 PM
Please boycott shell in the name of human rights. Shell has caused untold hardship in parts of West Africa by displacing local residents in order to make room for their multimillion dollar drilling rigs. These stories are hardly heard of because of the poverty level in those parts as well as the political interests underlying shells actions.
I have not bought gas from shell for 5 years and never will.......:mad:

If you're interested in what shell's doing behind the scenes to cause anguish to poverty striken people in Africa, do a general search on the 'Ogoni people' or click on the link:

*http://www.ratical.org/corporations/OgoniFactS.html

'88 325e
05-27-2002, 06:38 PM
The test consisted of a dyno of each fuel. Sunoco was second last (due to the fact of the massive ammounts of additives because it is a corn or grain based fuel), and PetroCan was the worst. I was told that Shell was the best?!? I guess its only a big concern if you are running high horsepower cars.

Now for the fuel sensor thing...I dunno...If someone is bored out there do some research on the net!

e36m3
05-27-2002, 09:15 PM
Here's the fuel ratings (worst to best): (ppm = parts per million)

Esso: 730 ppm sulphur
Petro-Canada: 500 ppm sulphur
Shell Canada: 500 ppm sulphur
Sunoco: 290 ppm sulphur

These numbers were posted in the Wheels section of the Toronto Star, and as you can see, Sunoco is the best fuel you can run in your car.

I've been running Sunoco 94 only in my M3 since I bought it. I had to change my O2 sensor at the 55K mark, because the first owner ran crap gas in it, and the city driving didn't help. Besides, you can't find Sunoco fuel anywhere downtown. O2 sensors in the M3 models ('96-99) are only supposed to be good for 50K or so, however, I have 126K on my car now, and it runs like a top. There's a noticeable increase in top-end power running 94 octane, and the car runs much better on initial startup when it's cold.

330DTM
05-27-2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by SickFinga
since we are talking about gas, why in europe they use 95, 95e, 98e, 99 gas
and we just got 94?

Well I think it has to do with the emission regulation in Canada. In Europe they're allowed to run higher octane vehicles.

e36m3
05-27-2002, 09:27 PM
I know this belongs in the tech section, but while we are on this topic, I've come up with a sure-fire way to keep your car's fuel system clean. Fill up your tank to 3/4, and add two bottles of Combustion Chamber Cleaner from Canadian Tire. It's sold in liquid form only, no spray, and comes in a black rectangular bottle. That stuff works so well on carbon, that I've used it to clean carbon from heads when I've done motor jobs. No sense in wearing out the wire brush when you can soak a head and a couple of hours later you wash the gunk off without so much as even scratching it.

If you really want your pistons clean, remove your plugs and pour 3-4 capfuls of cleaner into the cylinders. Let it sit for about 10 minutes, and then with the plugs still out, give the engine a very brief crank, just enough to turn it over a bit and splash the cleaner onto the valve stems. Let it sit another 10 minutes, and then crank it over several times with the plugs still out so there's no chance of hydrolock. Re-install your plugs, fire it up, and take the car out for a hard run, or give it some revs in your driveway and it'll clear any excess carbon out.

Anyhow, after that treatment, it doesn't hurt to run some fuel injector cleaner as well, to get them shooting straight and clean.

e36m3
05-27-2002, 09:29 PM
The European and North American octane measurement systems differ a little. Our Sunoco 94 octane fuel is equivalent to 97 octane in Europe using the European measurement system.

Furious
05-28-2002, 12:57 AM
I think the point here is forget the Air Miles try collecting them at the local grocery store,, leave shell alone........:D

SickFinga
05-28-2002, 12:59 AM
I collect them usuing my AMEX Air Miles.
how much do u have?

Furious
05-28-2002, 01:01 AM
well i probably only have enough to make it to montreal but hey i just started a few years ago,, and dont use it that much.........

SickFinga
05-28-2002, 01:05 AM
I got 693 miles :)
member since June 2000

Furious
05-28-2002, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by SickFinga
I got 693 miles :)
member since June 2000



nice nice nice,,,wanna lend me a couple to make it to new york.....:D

hawai-Ian
05-28-2002, 07:47 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by saj328
I just put half a tank's worth, other people have been telling me to try them out (GOLD), I've been going to Esso ever since I got my first car,sometimes Sunoco, so i guess I better flush out the Shell GOLD soon! [/QUOTE

go to other gas station lot and do a 1 hour donuts. knock yourself out - enjoy :D

ronin
05-29-2002, 11:27 AM
I had that identical problem with the fuel sensor going
irratic after filling up at Shell ... now I know why!!
Don't worry ... problem goes away after a while.

Never again. Stick with Sunoco!

Ronin

WASABI
05-29-2002, 04:32 PM
[/B][/QUOTE

go to other gas station lot and do a 1 hour donuts. knock yourself out - enjoy :D [/B][/QUOTE]

DONE !!!:D

KJ-M3
04-27-2003, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by '88 325e
The test consisted of a dyno of each fuel. Sunoco was second last (due to the fact of the massive ammounts of additives because it is a corn or grain based fuel), and PetroCan was the worst. I was told that Shell was the best?!? I guess its only a big concern if you are running high horsepower cars.

Now for the fuel sensor thing...I dunno...If someone is bored out there do some research on the net!

Hey, sorry to rehash an old topic, but I've been using Sunoco 94 and have suspected that the large amount of Ethanol used to increase Octane wasn't good for performance. I was wondering if you could provide dyno graphs or a link to the information you were mentioning. I would really appreciate the info! Thanks!

///MsAniTy
04-27-2003, 07:46 PM
Hey i just called that number because my sensor was messin up too and they told me that it is mostly in eastern canada and that they dont have problems with my car but when i got my car i started buyin shell because my parents use shell and like a month later i noticed problems wit it so i guess i will get spanked wit that expense

M3ti Compact
04-27-2003, 09:16 PM
In my opinion, Shell Gold is still the best gas out there. It burns better, more power, and doesn't smell as bad...

Yes, my ti has been having gauge problems...only when I fill it up to the brim...it'd suddenly go empty, then shoot back up to full...

I trick my friends with that- I say that BMW's make their own gas, and i'll have a full tank within minutes- and sure enough, the gas guage shoots back up to full!

But just because Shell gas causes this problem, is not reason enough to stop using it given how good it runs on my vehicles. All my cars run pretty much exclusively on Shell, and i've only had a problem on the 318ti's gauge.

BMW_M52_M20
04-27-2003, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by SickFinga
since we are talking about gas, why in europe they use 95, 95e, 98e, 99 gas
and we just got 94?

This is because the engines are designed to run on high octane and achieve amazing power out of light bhp cars.

I drove a 5spd Rover 2dr hatchback in England, and it had like 115hp, but with the engine designed to actually use the high octane to its advantage, the cars fly. The rover was very quick for its hp.

Jay

KJ-M3
04-27-2003, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by SickFinga
since we are talking about gas, why in europe they use 95, 95e, 98e, 99 gas
and we just got 94?

Actually, the CORRECT answer is that they use a different measurement system in Europe.

They rate their gas with a number called "RON" (Research Octane Number) in Europe, in North America, we use PON (Pump Octane Number) which is equal to "(RON + MON)/2". (MON = Motor Octane Number).

98RON in Europe is equivalent to 94 in North America.

KJ-M3
04-27-2003, 11:43 PM
I would love for someone to grab a sample of each gas station's gasoline, and do a comparison between them in a lab.

Specifically if someone could measure using "MON" (the most relevant test method for racing applications), Energy Value (how much potential energy is stored in the gasoline), and Burning Speed we could all know which gasoline produces the most horsepower.

Sure Sunoco 94 has the highest Octane number (I've been using it religiously for YEARS), but I suspect their use of Ethanol leads to a lower Energy Value and thus lower horsepower.

The rating system we use in North America is PON as mentioned in my previous post.

If Sunoco Ultra 94's PON = (98RON + 90MON)/2 = 94 PON and Esso is (92RON + 92MON)/2 = 92 PON, Esso gas would actually be better for HP due to the higher MON.

I used to use Esso and noticed that my gas mileage decreased noticeably when I switched to Sunoco 94. It didn't bother me too much since I figured I was putting the "Best Gas" in my car. But after giving it some thought and doing some research, I'm not sure if Sunoco 94 is the best performing gas in Canada.

The comments made by 88 325e stating that Sunoco made the 2nd least power on the dyno confirmed my suspicions. Now I'm hoping he can post the actual dyno graphs, so I can see for myself which gas makes the most power.

My problem is that the E46 M3 has been shown to gain 10whp across the board by upgrading from 91 Octane to 96 Octane. So the million dollar question is "91 Octane from Shell better than 94 Octane from Sunoco on the dyno"?

I'm hoping someone can jump in and enlighten me! =)

M3ti Compact
04-28-2003, 02:10 AM
I can say with 98.99% certainty that SHELL 91 produces more power than SUNOCO 94.

My scooter has an upgraded 70cc racing kit. 12.5:1 compression ratio...and an amazing...9 hp...lol...anyways...it also has a CVT (continuously variable transmission), meaning that it's running constant high RPM's all the time. And it being only 70cc, i'm constantly running at top speed all the time.

According to the speedometer- which is probably off by 10km/h or so, but at least it's consistent for this purpose...

SHELL 91 always outperforms Sunoco 94. The cruise speed (easily attainable top speed) for Shell 91 is 90km/h, and top speed (wind and downhill) is well over 120km/h.

With Sunoco 94, cruise speed is only 80km/h, and I can never get it over 100km/h. And it smells bad...

But keep in mind that it's a 2-stroke...but the basic principle behind it for cars and my scooter should be the same...

Esso has the dirtiest gas, so I never go there, and there is hardly any Petro-Canada stations around...so I hardly go there either. But i'm also interested to see the dyno results...the one with the highest HP will be my gas of choice...unless it's ESSO.

Esso has been permanently blacklisted by me for making the car smell soo bad after 1 fill up that i'm never going back again!

Guess who's kicking ass in F1? Ferrari...and guess what gas they use???

Gamite
04-28-2003, 03:35 AM
I used to work at husky. And I once asked the gas delivery guy about this, and what he said was:

"for certain gas stations, the same trucks will deliver to both Petro and Shell.

And the same trucks will deliver to both Sunoco and Esso."


Which would explain why Petro and Shell octane ratings are only 91 where as, both Sunoco and Esso have it at 92. I mean, it makes sense, or it could be coincedience. But personally, I try to stick to NEW gas stations with NEW gas tanks that arent crusty and may have water leaks? Husky's tanks were cheap or something, cuz apparently there's a % of water in the premium fuel. That's what the fuel dips say.

Dont flame me on this, I'm just telling you what I've seen with my eyes and heard with my ears.

niko_gt
04-28-2003, 03:57 AM
while' we're on this topic, esso is changing their supreme octane level to 91 instead of 92, (ooops did i say that out loud)

expect this change soon lol

tiestoE36
04-28-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by e36m3
I know this belongs in the tech section, but while we are on this topic, I've come up with a sure-fire way to keep your car's fuel system clean. Fill up your tank to 3/4, and add two bottles of Combustion Chamber Cleaner from Canadian Tire. It's sold in liquid form only, no spray, and comes in a black rectangular bottle. That stuff works so well on carbon, that I've used it to clean carbon from heads when I've done motor jobs. No sense in wearing out the wire brush when you can soak a head and a couple of hours later you wash the gunk off without so much as even scratching it.

If you really want your pistons clean, remove your plugs and pour 3-4 capfuls of cleaner into the cylinders. Let it sit for about 10 minutes, and then with the plugs still out, give the engine a very brief crank, just enough to turn it over a bit and splash the cleaner onto the valve stems. Let it sit another 10 minutes, and then crank it over several times with the plugs still out so there's no chance of hydrolock. Re-install your plugs, fire it up, and take the car out for a hard run, or give it some revs in your driveway and it'll clear any excess carbon out.

Anyhow, after that treatment, it doesn't hurt to run some fuel injector cleaner as well, to get them shooting straight and clean.

i dont know about these aditives, i have heard bad things!

The Sly
04-28-2003, 11:41 PM
Ah that cheap gasoline.....

This is why i get aviations gas mixte with 94 octane....
At least this avgas is regulated by the goverment and it has to be good or they could kill lifes.....

moregothanshow
04-29-2003, 02:04 AM
This is why i get aviations gas mixte with 94 octane....
how do you get aviation gas? how much? what is the mixture i.e. 20% 94 and 80% aviation? where? this sounds really good...what do i have to do to my car in order to burn it properly?
ignition timing?
Thanks!

KJ-M3
04-29-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by M3ti Compact
I can say with 98.99% certainty that SHELL 91 produces more power than SUNOCO 94.

My scooter has an upgraded 70cc racing kit. 12.5:1 compression ratio...and an amazing...9 hp...lol...anyways...it also has a CVT (continuously variable transmission), meaning that it's running constant high RPM's all the time. And it being only 70cc, i'm constantly running at top speed all the time.

According to the speedometer- which is probably off by 10km/h or so, but at least it's consistent for this purpose...

SHELL 91 always outperforms Sunoco 94. The cruise speed (easily attainable top speed) for Shell 91 is 90km/h, and top speed (wind and downhill) is well over 120km/h.

With Sunoco 94, cruise speed is only 80km/h, and I can never get it over 100km/h. And it smells bad...

But keep in mind that it's a 2-stroke...but the basic principle behind it for cars and my scooter should be the same...

Esso has the dirtiest gas, so I never go there, and there is hardly any Petro-Canada stations around...so I hardly go there either. But i'm also interested to see the dyno results...the one with the highest HP will be my gas of choice...unless it's ESSO.

Esso has been permanently blacklisted by me for making the car smell soo bad after 1 fill up that i'm never going back again!

Guess who's kicking ass in F1? Ferrari...and guess what gas they use???

One major factor to consider is that your scooter does not advance ignition timing or anything to take advantage of higher octane. As a result, the higher octane may lead to lower HP due to the mixture being harder to ignite. If you do a comparision between say Shell 91 and Sunoco 92 and still observe the same thing, then I am with you 100%. One thing to remember is that many cars have ECU's that can advance ignition timing and take advantage of 96+ Octane.

One more thing, Ferrari isn't kicking ass in F1, Mercedes is! All this may change this weekend though. :)

BTW, for your interest, here is a dynograph of an E46 M3 (91 Octane vs. 96 Octane).

http://members.roadfly.com/chuckd/91vs96e46m3.JPG

Fernando
04-29-2003, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by e36m3
I know this belongs in the tech section, but while we are on this topic, I've come up with a sure-fire way to keep your car's fuel system clean. Fill up your tank to 3/4, and add two bottles of Combustion Chamber Cleaner from Canadian Tire. It's sold in liquid form only, no spray, and comes in a black rectangular bottle. That stuff works so well on carbon, that I've used it to clean carbon from heads when I've done motor jobs. No sense in wearing out the wire brush when you can soak a head and a couple of hours later you wash the gunk off without so much as even scratching it.

If you really want your pistons clean, remove your plugs and pour 3-4 capfuls of cleaner into the cylinders. Let it sit for about 10 minutes, and then with the plugs still out, give the engine a very brief crank, just enough to turn it over a bit and splash the cleaner onto the valve stems. Let it sit another 10 minutes, and then crank it over several times with the plugs still out so there's no chance of hydrolock. Re-install your plugs, fire it up, and take the car out for a hard run, or give it some revs in your driveway and it'll clear any excess carbon out.

Anyhow, after that treatment, it doesn't hurt to run some fuel injector cleaner as well, to get them shooting straight and clean.

In doing this aren't you washing down the cylinder walls of oil which is so critical in protecting these parts?

Sounds like back in the old days where guys would rev the car before turning them off. only to start up the engine the next moring with bone dry cylinder walls.

Just my $.02

Cheers,

Fern

M3ti Compact
04-30-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by KJ-M3
One major factor to consider is that your scooter does not advance ignition timing or anything to take advantage of higher octane. As a result, the higher octane may lead to lower HP due to the mixture being harder to ignite. If you do a comparision between say Shell 91 and Sunoco 92 and still observe the same thing, then I am with you 100%. One thing to remember is that many cars have ECU's that can advance ignition timing and take advantage of 96+ Octane.

One more thing, Ferrari isn't kicking ass in F1, Mercedes is! All this may change this weekend though. :)

BTW, for your interest, here is a dynograph of an E46 M3 (91 Octane vs. 96 Octane).

http://members.roadfly.com/chuckd/91vs96e46m3.JPG

Which gas did you use?

And where'd you get 96?

KJ-M3
04-30-2003, 01:06 PM
That isn't my graph, it's someone from Roadfly.org

I dunno what gas he used for the Comparison. I just know he is in the U.S.

DunDan
05-14-2003, 03:39 PM
[snipped]
I'm sure many of you use Sunoco Ultra 94, due to its' high octane rating... I've been pumping it for about 6 years... I just got a message concerning the "methanol content"...

"you know my friend Robert with the white S14. You may also know that he teaches Auto-tech at Centennial College and worked at BMW for 10 years or so. In other words he knows his shit.

Anyways he was telling me about the Methanol content in Sunoco gas and how it is higher than what is recommended for Nissan cars. I was looking at a PDF Owners manual for the G35 Coupe and it states that maximum Methanol allowed for the engine is 5% while Sunoco gas may contain up to 10%. In other words Sunoco gas may not be the best gas for your Nissan."

taken from the G35 owners manual

"If premium gasoline is not available, unleaded
regular gasoline with an octane rating of 87
AKI number (Research octane number 91)
may be temporarily used, but only under the
following precautions:
O Have the fuel tank filled only partially with
unleaded regular gasoline, and fill up with
unleaded premium gasoline as soon as
Some fuel suppliers are now producing reformulated
gasolines. These gasolines are specially
designed to reduce vehicle emissions.
INFINITI supports efforts towards cleaner air
and suggests that you use reformulated gasoline
when available.
Gasoline containing oxygenates
Some fuel suppliers sell gasoline containing
If a methanol blend is used, it should
contain no more than 5% methanol (methyl
alcohol, wood alcohol). It should
also contain a suitable amount of appropriate
cosolvents and corrosion inhibitors.
If not properly formulated with appropriate
cosolvents and corrosion
inhibitors, such methanol blends may
cause fuel system damage and/or vehicle
performance problems."


"Another story Robert told me was with Dinan. They did a test using Sunoco 94 and with Esso 92 and believe or not the chipped out bimmer performed better using the Esso than Sunoco. He said that it was again due to the methenol content. "
[snip]

KJ-M3
05-14-2003, 07:23 PM
Damn, I guess my suspicions were right then.

Now I gotta use Esso's 92 octane and pollute the environment with the sulphur. =(

Only problem is, there are 2 Sunoco's VERY close to me, but no Esso's.

Foc us
05-14-2003, 07:49 PM
DAMN! I got a full tank of gas and my gauge went empty for a little while, then it turns back to normal again, so I ignore it.....