PDA

View Full Version : What Uprades = HP


BimmerKris
02-18-2004, 02:22 AM
What upgrades are the best for a 2.7 motor. What are the real ratings after they are installed.

I have seen chips that say they are good for 28hp
and cool air intake that is good for 15 hp
that seems pretty high to me

maybe you guys know what are good uprgades and what power they produce.

SpoolinS6
02-18-2004, 02:30 AM
i say get a 2.5 head from a 325I motor
thats what id do to start off !

felixthecat
02-18-2004, 02:39 AM
the best upgrage for the $ on any 4 stroke engine is freeing up exhaust gas back pressure.next to that id have to say machining the head.the "tornado"is also "best bang for the buck"

Jase
02-18-2004, 02:40 AM
chip, better intake will help too, exhaust is another .

lvan
02-18-2004, 03:26 AM
I dont belif you can get 28 hp outta chip and 15 from intake. Most of E30 2.7 or 325E have over 200 000km.
That means the engine has about 100hp stock . I heard how mileage kills the hp.. I think 15hp outta chip plus 15 for inatke works out to 25hp max.The stock engine has 122 hp but as I said it goes down after many km. I think to trow intake and chip is ok but not sure how differencial mode goes.

chromius
02-18-2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by lvan
I dont belif you can get 28 hp outta chip and 15 from intake. Most of E30 2.7 or 325E have over 200 000km.
That means the engine has about 100hp stock . I heard how mileage kills the hp.. I think 15hp outta chip plus 15 for inatke works out to 25hp max.The stock engine has 122 hp but as I said it goes down after many km. I think to trow intake and chip is ok but not sure how differencial mode goes.

Thats all subjective, high milage dosen't mean you loose HP nessesairly, it all depends how the car was taken care of....and even still you would not loose a whole 22HP unless your piston rings or head gasket were so bad that you couldn't get compression, but in that case the lost power would be the least of your worries.

As for the chip and intake, realistically you would probably be looking at 15HP gain 20lbft tourque with the chip and at the most 3hp with the intake...but probably not even that because you are restricted by the MAF. Go for the chip, MAF upgrade, Catback exhaust, and then air intake/throttle body. and go "I" head for a really mean machine.*th-up*

lvan
02-18-2004, 02:41 PM
If you think so then perfect. Thats is just what I heard. I know if the engine is take care if it should be fine. Now about mileage killing hp not so sure. any wayz chip + some nice inatke should make a diff.

jimmyd1
02-18-2004, 04:15 PM
Here is what I would do, provided you've got some money to spend. 325i head, 524td crank and either I or custom pistons, plus the i wiring harness, sensors, M30 AFM and injectors, and the exhaust system from a 325i and you'll have yourself a 328i. BTW, don't bolt a 325i head on to 86 or 87 e or es block, you will reduce your CR to between 8.3 and 8.5 to 1, because the combustion chambers differ and the pistons are different.

lvan
02-18-2004, 05:51 PM
E to I swap is the best thing to do but to me it is bit more pricy.Maybe it is not but for your car and + cash for mods you can have 325I.mAYBE i AM WRONG BUT THAT is just what i see.

chromius
02-18-2004, 06:00 PM
personnaly I would take the 325e with the 2.8i stroker conversion....ie. "i" head swap, over just the 325i....the gains are tremendous. check this site for the full details on doing it. Very comprehensive and you can see the gains are amazing. you can squeeze out 180hp 190lbs/ft or add a few more mods and 205HP is what you get. (crank HP) Those are some pretty good gains. not to mention the flatter torque/HP curves.

http://www.strictlyeta.net/technical/328i_1.html

Digitalwave
02-18-2004, 07:35 PM
The best upgrade to get HP is an engine swap...

Also, when chips claim a 28hp gain, its not a PEAK gain. Like if your car has 125hp a chip doesn't make it 153hp. The gains are in the mid range, and the peak gains are small. Like on an M20B25, chips claim a 15hp increase. Well, that is at like 4,400 RPM. You actually only gain 2-3hp at the peak, making it go from 168 to 170-171 theoretically.

Mystikal
02-18-2004, 08:20 PM
Nothing besides a chip will give you anything worthwhile unless you get into "ita" conversions. Intake won't do anything worthwhile either, don't believe the claims.

BimmerKris
02-18-2004, 10:00 PM
I'm lookin for someone who knows from experenice. I have heard from many sources that an i head on an e block is not what everyone makes it out to be. It make output worse. I have already had the head planed 30thous and it bumped compression to 9.5:1. You can't reach that with an i block. In fact the only head that will add power to an e block is a head off an E36 2.0 motor. That will raise up to 30 hp. This i know for a fact. It's just not cheap.

As for exhuast i have that done already. I totally rebuild the motor, doin little things to it that freed up power.

the dyno read 138 hp
with 185ft/lbs of torque
that was with a faulty o2 senser

i have also heard from many sources (including BMW) that cool air intake is one of the best things you can do to the motor. when These cars came off the line BMW purposely restricted airflow and exhaust to make the motor quieter.

what have you guys done to your cars to improve performance? I know what can be done. I am more curious to see what is worth doing

Digitalwave
02-19-2004, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by BimmerKris
I'm lookin for someone who knows from experenice. I have heard from many sources that an i head on an e block is not what everyone makes it out to be. It make output worse. I have already had the head planed 30thous and it bumped compression to 9.5:1. You can't reach that with an i block. In fact the only head that will add power to an e block is a head off an E36 2.0 motor. That will raise up to 30 hp. This i know for a fact. It's just not cheap.

As for exhuast i have that done already. I totally rebuild the motor, doin little things to it that freed up power.

the dyno read 138 hp
with 185ft/lbs of torque
that was with a faulty o2 senser

i have also heard from many sources (including BMW) that cool air intake is one of the best things you can do to the motor. when These cars came off the line BMW purposely restricted airflow and exhaust to make the motor quieter.

what have you guys done to your cars to improve performance? I know what can be done. I am more curious to see what is worth doing

Both of these facts are wrong. BMW's have very free flowing exhausts, thats why aftermarket exhausts are for looks/sound. And the filter is not the problem with the intake, its the AFM and the 2 vavle per cylinder head.

E36 heads do not fit on E30 engines. And a new O2 sensor really won't make a difference on dyno numbers.

Mystikal
02-19-2004, 01:34 AM
Ahhhh...that felt good to read. Thank you.

///MsAniTy
02-19-2004, 02:00 AM
hey digitaql wave yr car is very pimp n clean keep it up

BimmerKris
02-19-2004, 02:48 AM
I only say this out of experience. I have seen 3 versions of the 2.0L E36 head 2 i have seen personally and one was in BMWscene magazine it had 200 out of the same motor. Once again i have seen this.

Mufflers are for looks and sound. Exhuast systems is the path that carbon dioxide leaves the car. By changing a 1 1/2 inch pipe to a 3 inch pipe with no cat converter and a more direct root, horsepower will rise. The faster it can leave the car the faster more fuel can enter the cylinder chamber faster. but that doesn't increase output, oh wait yes it does.

you would be suprised what a new o2 senser could do. Years of carbon build up doesn't make electronics work better.

like every part on a car, if it was made to take out it was made to where out

chromius
02-19-2004, 03:43 AM
to clear up a few things.....Cold air intake sounds nice and helps throttle response, however makes no noticable difference in performance on an e30....I know that from experiance because I have one, the MAF is the restriction...
exhaust adds at a max 5 HP on a 88 325 super e and 325is, I have seen the dyno results, it may be slightly more on a 325e if you upgrade to dual pipes but not much....and yes removing the cat will free things up a little more but the car will no longer pass emmisions. and contrary to popular belief a car does require some amount of exahust back pressure or it will run like crap, and reducing the ammount of exhaust back pressure will not allow air and fuel to enter the cylinder faster because during the intake stroke the exhaust valves are closed anyway, so it would make no difference, reducing backpressure only makes it easier for the piston to move up during the exhaust stroke and get the spent fuel air mixture out of the cylinder faster.

With that said a aftermarket exhaust does sound really nice.*th-up*

BimmerKris
02-19-2004, 03:47 AM
i'll worry about the emmissions test when it comes i guess don't see it anytime soon i took it out after it was inspected

Digitalwave
02-20-2004, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by BimmerKris
I only say this out of experience. I have seen 3 versions of the 2.0L E36 head 2 i have seen personally and one was in BMWscene magazine it had 200 out of the same motor. Once again i have seen this.

Mufflers are for looks and sound. Exhuast systems is the path that carbon dioxide leaves the car. By changing a 1 1/2 inch pipe to a 3 inch pipe with no cat converter and a more direct root, horsepower will rise. The faster it can leave the car the faster more fuel can enter the cylinder chamber faster. but that doesn't increase output, oh wait yes it does.

you would be suprised what a new o2 senser could do. Years of carbon build up doesn't make electronics work better.

like every part on a car, if it was made to take out it was made to where out

O2 sensors will NOT make an increase in the dyno, because when at WOT the O2 sensor goes into open loop mode anyways. A faulty O2 sensor is always in open loop mode, so there is no difference.

chromius, E30's have AFM's, not MAF's. That is the problem. A MAF is a good upgrade.

dansciol
02-20-2004, 12:41 AM
Originally posted by BimmerKris
I'm lookin for someone who knows from experenice. I have heard from many sources that an i head on an e block is not what everyone makes it out to be. It make output worse. I have already had the head planed 30thous and it bumped compression to 9.5:1. You can't reach that with an i block. In fact the only head that will add power to an e block is a head off an E36 2.0 motor. That will raise up to 30 hp. This i know for a fact. It's just not cheap.

As for exhuast i have that done already. I totally rebuild the motor, doin little things to it that freed up power.

the dyno read 138 hp
with 185ft/lbs of torque
that was with a faulty o2 senser

i have also heard from many sources (including BMW) that cool air intake is one of the best things you can do to the motor. when These cars came off the line BMW purposely restricted airflow and exhaust to make the motor quieter.

what have you guys done to your cars to improve performance? I know what can be done. I am more curious to see what is worth doing


You got 138 hp and 185 ft/lbs out of an eta????
What exactly did you do to it??

chromius
02-20-2004, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Digitalwave

chromius, E30's have AFM's, not MAF's. That is the problem. A MAF is a good upgrade.

sorry mixed up the terms...but you know what I ment.:D

BimmerKris
02-20-2004, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by dansciol@hotmai
You got 138 hp and 185 ft/lbs out of an eta????
What exactly did you do to it??

When we rebuild the motor just did little things

re honed the chambers
shaved 30thou off of the head compression is at 9.5:1
shaved every area as much as possible for flow
i.e. bored intake openings, exhaust manifold, etc.
removed ac pump (who needs it)
custom exhuast: ran from the manifolds to a hollowed out flowmaster, which creates the feeling of a short exhaust, then runs out a 3 inch pipe to a ractive high flow muffler witha four inch opening. (but i tucked that up so it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb.

just restored it basicly the guy i had helping me is a mechanical genuis and came up with some need stuff

rwh11385
02-20-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Digitalwave
The best upgrade to get HP is an engine swap...

Also, when chips claim a 28hp gain, its not a PEAK gain. Like if your car has 125hp a chip doesn't make it 153hp. The gains are in the mid range, and the peak gains are small. Like on an M20B25, chips claim a 15hp increase. Well, that is at like 4,400 RPM. You actually only gain 2-3hp at the peak, making it go from 168 to 170-171 theoretically.

TJ is right.

Etas are designed for gas mileage and there are not many upgrades that will make them much better. A JC Chip is good, and some find it good to swap to 325i stock exhaust, i intake manifold, i throttle body...i camshaft and springs..... see a trend? Just swap in an 325i engine....or build a budget 2.7i or 2.8i stroker motor. Or swap for M50. Don't waste much money/time on the M20, e, i or otherwise.......

Chips do make a 15hp gain on 325i's.....but it is only at a certain point on the curve. Based on reliable resources, the chipped 325i engine makes 177hp, 177ft-lbs.....or 9hp gain at the peak, at the crank......

but don't be fooled by claims of 15hp for an Cold air intake....and don't be foolish to spend a lot of $$$$ on a M20. Build up a cheap stroker (eta block/323 head, 325i w/ TD crank and pistons to work, etc) or get a cheap turbo setup. Or swap to the 24V M50........

BimmerKris
02-20-2004, 10:47 PM
I still won't be told that that the 2.7 is not a good motor. The way i have it know with just the simple mods that i have done i am running 0-60 in 7.8 sec all motor. I am not sure what a i models are running but a have beaten a number of them already. I'm sure once i get the chip, intake, and evenually the headers ( just for shits and giggles) it will be a pretty peppy motor. I have done all the tests and expereanced all the results.

rwh11385
02-20-2004, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by BimmerKris
I still won't be told that that the 2.7 is not a good motor. The way i have it know with just the simple mods that i have done i am running 0-60 in 7.8 sec all motor. I am not sure what a i models are running but a have beaten a number of them already. I'm sure once i get the chip, intake, and evenually the headers ( just for shits and giggles) it will be a pretty peppy motor. I have done all the tests and expereanced all the results.

never said it wasn't a good motor. It just isn't performance goaled. 7.8 isn't that fast at all, really, but more than a second faster than stock. If you're building up an eta, swap in an i cam and springs, find a chip that will work, and get an I exhaust, and i manifold......

http://www.strictlyeta.net/articles.html

read this article:

http://www.strictlyeta.net/articles/325is_2.jpg
150hp peak HP with eta and i cam.....good upgrade.

Check out R3vlimited.com if you haven't, we acknowledge etas are slow and tell you how to make them better.

Digitalwave
02-21-2004, 01:18 AM
Originally posted by rwh11385

Chips do make a 15hp gain on 325i's.....but it is only at a certain point on the curve. Based on reliable resources, the chipped 325i engine makes 177hp, 177ft-lbs.....or 9hp gain at the peak, at the crank......

Wrong. The HP gains are in the mid-range. I have seen the dyno charts. The gain AT THE PEAK is about 3-4 hp, which would be like 172hp. You might be confused because the maximum gain of the chip (which is in the mid-range) is about 9whp.

Stock 5 speed 325i's should be able to do low 7 seconds 0-60... under 7 with the right bolt on mods.

BimmerKris
02-21-2004, 05:21 AM
7.8 sec may not be fast but these were runnin 10 sec 0-60 stock. any motor can be made to perform. each in it's own way. the i motors are more conventional so they have the same ways as every other motor to gain performance. By adding i compontents the only thing that is happening is higher rpms are trying to be reached. Instead of trying to get more rpms you have to work with the rpms that the car is designed for. Thats why the chip will be more effective in an e block. All the power is made between 2000 and 4500 rpm. you have treat this motor like a desil and work on mid range power not peak. i'm not saying that the e block is better then an i block, but when people say that it is not made to perform. Well neither is the i block. if they wanted perfomance out of a 3 series model they would all have m3 motors or whatever. After market parts don't mean shit to a dealership. You can make any motor perform, even though most are already made for what they are supposed to do

rwh11385
02-21-2004, 12:20 PM
TJ, first off, i said "Based on reliable resources, the chipped 325i engine makes 177hp, 177ft-lbs.....or 9hp gain at the peak, at the crank......" This was a source that was NOT Dinan, but I can't find it right now. I might email Jim Conforti and see if it by chance has dyno graphs, or that new chip guy Mystical (Jay) knows.....

How many M20 dyno runs have you seen for stock, thus + chip. Make the car was just not in optimal conditions.

From a post from SlammedE30, Ted, he said
For a little more info, my M20B25 with just a JimC chip made 150rwhp and 150 rwtrq.
With 1.17 factor, it converts to 175.5. And that is with 100K miles. I do not know what dyno it was done on, but I could find out.,

I wish I had a free day next week to take my car after it is repaired to the Illinios chapter CCA Dyno day. I could run stock vs. chip right after the other and get some dyno results for the chip. But I'm not free, nor want to spend $50 to complete this unneeded task......

Maybe later this summer if I can get in cheaper and I'm free. Easy enough to remove the chip temporarily.

BimmerKris, Have fun with your eta.

BimmerKris
02-21-2004, 04:46 PM
yeah this stirred up a lot of shit so i'm just gonna keep on keepin on and stick to my original plan. To have a quick economical sweet looking ride. guess i'll find out the gain when i install that stuff anyway

rwh11385
02-21-2004, 07:01 PM
TJ, straight from the horse's mouth, as they say:

FWIW, I used to own/drive a 1987 325iS, and the original chip I did was for
my own car. It's a bit more than 3-4hp from memory, more like 10 or so.

Jim


I emailed Jim Conforti and there you have it. Gain at peak is around 10hp, not 3-4. So max hp on a chipped 325i would be ~177.

:cool:

dansciol
02-21-2004, 11:35 PM
For reference my 85 325e with 210,000 miles put down 118hp, 160 ft/lbs at the rear wheels, with the following mods.

Shaved head (.020") muffler man 2 1/4" exhaust with high flow cat and Flowmaster delta flow muffler, ebay knockoff ecu chip, 325i Throttle Body, Elbow, and airbox with K&N filter, throttle body heater disabled, Bav auto 8mm perf. wires, mobil 1 15w-50, redline d4 in the manual gearbox, valvoline synpower 75w-90 in the diff.

BimmerKris
02-22-2004, 08:15 AM
Originally posted by dansciol
For reference my 85 325e with 210,000 miles put down 118hp, 160 ft/lbs at the rear wheels, with the following mods.

Shaved head (.020") muffler man 2 1/4" exhaust with high flow cat and Flowmaster delta flow muffler, ebay knockoff ecu chip, 325i Throttle Body, Elbow, and airbox with K&N filter, throttle body heater disabled, Bav auto 8mm perf. wires, mobil 1 15w-50, redline d4 in the manual gearbox, valvoline synpower 75w-90 in the diff.

man there must be something wrong with the motor in your car. It had 120hp and 170 lbs/ft bone stock. with all that shit added on you should be a bit higher then that. time for a rebuild

rwh11385
02-22-2004, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by BimmerKris
man there must be something wrong with the motor in your car. It had 120hp and 170 lbs/ft bone stock. with all that shit added on you should be a bit higher then that. time for a rebuild

:rolleyes: He said to the rear wheels.....

assuming a factor of 1.17 for drivetrain loss, he was making 138hp and 187ft-lbs.
*par-t* Woohoo, almost 140hp........

Dansciol, just fyi, here is the table of info for the JC chip of the e. Maybe you ought to pick up a real JC.
85-87 325e
Before HP max: 121 / After HP max: 141 Before torque max 174 / After max: 192
Both of which are an improvement on your figures. Chips are cheap used, you should be able to find yours for less than $100, and is a great upgrade.

dansciol
02-22-2004, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by rwh11385
:rolleyes: He said to the rear wheels.....

assuming a factor of 1.17 for drivetrain loss, he was making 138hp and 187ft-lbs.
*par-t* Woohoo, almost 140hp........

Dansciol, just fyi, here is the table of info for the JC chip of the e. Maybe you ought to pick up a real JC.
85-87 325e
Before HP max: 121 / After HP max: 141 Before torque max 174 / After max: 192
Both of which are an improvement on your figures. Chips are cheap used, you should be able to find yours for less than $100, and is a great upgrade.

Cool, are these figures calculated from wheel horsepower? Or just estimated crank figures?
Where do the no name chips on ebay come from? How are they made? Why wouldn't they have just as much gains as a JC chip?
Heres one for reference:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33597&item=2461823774

Mystikal
02-22-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by dansciol
Where do the no name chips on ebay come from? How are they made? Why wouldn't they have just as much gains as a JC chip?
Heres one for reference:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33597&item=2461823774

You answered your own questions, really. You have no idea where they came from, they could be a copy of a JC if you're lucky, or they could be the product of some not-so-skilled guy sitting in his basement. And I'm not into risking the latter when it controls so much of your engine's actions.

dansciol
02-22-2004, 06:10 PM
I understand and agree with your point.
I'm just curious how some guy in his basement can build a specialized microchip and still sell it cheaper than many retailers.

I would like to learn about this process, lol.....

rwh11385
02-22-2004, 07:34 PM
Yeah, you don't know with ebay chips. Not worth it, just buy a genuine used.

As far as brands, only go TMS/JC!

Read this:
http://member.rivernet.com.au/btaylor/BMWText/technical/JimConChipDesign.html
JIM C is pretty confident in his work.


Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999
From: Jim Conforti <lndshrk@xmission.com>
Subject: Comparisons in the mirror

Manuel Paredes asks:

> Next question; does anyone have any information, meaning data, comparing
> the JimC chip to other chips. I am looking for either Dyno comparisons
> or actual data from Jim himself. I want to purchase one for car but I
> have this friend who is pretty knowledgable and says the "racing
> dynamics" chip is better and will out perform any other chip.

That's rich..

If you're talking about the "REAL" Racing Dynamics SpA, who does their
chips (hint: his name is Jim C.) sold here as RD Sport products

AND

If you're talking about US Racing Dynamics.. aka Electrodyne, they
at last check, got their chips from a source that bases them on
MY code for OBD-I vehicles..

So, if you're asking who's better, out of ME and ME, I'd say ME!

Jim C.

PS: All in all, exhaust is NOT the best use of money!

He's the shizz-nit!

dansciol
02-22-2004, 08:04 PM
Nice

Digitalwave
02-22-2004, 08:56 PM
rwh, you are using dyno numbers and corrections way too much as a comparison. Dyno's are used for tuning, not to compare car to car. Did Ted dyno his car back to back when it was stock, once with a chip, and once without?

AA has dyno plots on their web site, go study them.

rwh11385
02-22-2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Digitalwave
rwh, you are using dyno numbers and corrections way too much as a comparison. Dyno's are used for tuning, not to compare car to car. Did Ted dyno his car back to back when it was stock, once with a chip, and once without?

AA has dyno plots on their web site, go study them.

Yeah. But it's hard to try to find a standard meterstick to use, so I try to reference dynos. I know someone ran a dyno of a stock 325i and turned out #'s higher than someone's chipped i. (just like I heard, for every 5 engines produced, 2 have 5% more power, 1 is right on, 2 have 5% less power......) So dynos cannot really be used to compare, but I can try.

I can ask Ted about his dyno runs when he's online same time as me next.

Hopefully I can make a dyno run back to back with and without a JC chip. Illinios chapter is having a dyno day March 28th, but it costs $50. We'll see.