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View Full Version : 2004 M3 Vs. 2003 Mustang Cobra


Jammasterj
01-13-2004, 07:53 PM
Which car do you think would win?

Quarter Mile?
0-60?
What about in the turns?

Mystikal
01-13-2004, 09:50 PM
Didn't we have this discussion already?

The Cobra would win in acceleration, at any speed. The track times, I'm not too sure. The Cobra has a huge power/torque advantage and a lot more rubber on the road, but I wouldn't bet on either.

Jon@Bimmersport
01-13-2004, 10:02 PM
i dunno...but i;d rather take the M for sure!

328is_Perf
01-13-2004, 10:27 PM
http://www.fast-autos.net/makes.html

Cobra:

0-60 mph: 4.5 sec
0-100 mph: 10.4 sec
Quarter Mile: est 12.9 sec @ 111 mph
Skidpad: .90g
Top Speed: 155 mph (limited)


M3:
0-60 mph: 4.7 sec
0-100 mph: 11.6 sec
Quarter Mile: 13.2 sec @ 109 mph
Skidpad: .91g
Top Speed: 155 mph (limited)
Braking, 60-0 mph: 112 ft
Slalom Speed: 65.1 mph


You got way better handling in the M3

Jammasterj
01-13-2004, 11:24 PM
We did have this discussion already. but i wanted to get ppls opinions.

I did some reasearch myself
Road and Track.com
Bmw M3
0-60mph 4.7sec
Quarter 13.3sec
Top Speed 155mph (limited)

Mustang Cobra
0-60mph 4.9sec
Quarter 13.2sec
Top Speed 155mph (limited)

Looks like the M3 would give the Cobra a run for its money after all...

But as we all know...the stats very based on who is driving the car
*th-up*

Mystikal
01-14-2004, 02:31 AM
Those seem very slow. C&D got the 0-60 in 4.5 and 1/4 in 12.9.

moerom
01-14-2004, 05:05 AM
Trust me the Cobra walks away from the M3 at any speed. They are underrated and most 03/04 Cobra's make 380-390 at the wheels, which means around 440 at the crank.

HOWEVER

I would take an M3 anyday because of the feel, balance, and the prestige.

In terms of raw numbers though, the Cobra dominates this comparison.

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 05:33 AM
I'm gonna get flamed out the behind for this but on the track the cobra would walk on the M3.

Even if it couldn't keep up in corners (though I'd put money on it that it can), as soon as it's outta the corner it's for 400ft-lbs of torque and 400hp to push it past the M3.

Be honest now, American cars don't handle nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to. I'd take an M over a Cobra, but I'd still get my ass handed to me by a Cobra.

I will for sure get flamed for this remark: An M3 is not king **** of the car world. To be honest, it's not even king **** of the euro world. BMW owners need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that the M3 really isn't quite so "high in the sportscar world" that the majority of BMW owners seem to think it is. Yes, it handles well, yes, it accelerates well, but it is by no means a top performer, especially for it's new car pricerange. And before anyone touts remarks of class and prestige try to remember this is about performance, not which is more likely to get you laid (I think a cobra would out here anyways :D ).

With that said, I love BMWs.

UncleJ
01-14-2004, 05:55 AM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
I'm gonna get flamed out the behind for this but on the track the cobra would walk on the M3.

Even if it couldn't keep up in corners (though I'd put money on it that it can), as soon as it's outta the corner it's for 400ft-lbs of torque and 400hp to push it past the M3.

Be honest now, American cars don't handle nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to. I'd take an M over a Cobra, but I'd still get my ass handed to me by a Cobra.

I will for sure get flamed for this remark: An M3 is not king **** of the car world. To be honest, it's not even king **** of the euro world. BMW owners need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that the M3 really isn't quite so "high in the sportscar world" that the majority of BMW owners seem to think it is. Yes, it handles well, yes, it accelerates well, but it is by no means a top performer, especially for it's new car pricerange. And before anyone touts remarks of class and prestige try to remember this is about performance, not which is more likely to get you laid (I think a cobra would out here anyways :D ).

With that said, I love BMWs.

BMW and the M3 in general are the benchmarks for their class. That's why it's so praised.

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 06:02 AM
For it's CLASS.

The M3 class is the "Luxury Performance Saloon - Mid Class", not the "High Performance Road/Track Car" like the Mustang Cobra *where's a rolleye smiley when I need one?*... So as such should not be placed in the same class and still praised like it's king ****.

By the way, by mid class I mean: It's not a mercedes (which is High Class).

*flamesuit*

Jammasterj
01-14-2004, 06:13 AM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
I'm gonna get flamed out the behind for this but on the track the cobra would walk on the M3.

Even if it couldn't keep up in corners (though I'd put money on it that it can), as soon as it's outta the corner it's for 400ft-lbs of torque and 400hp to push it past the M3.

Be honest now, American cars don't handle nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to. I'd take an M over a Cobra, but I'd still get my ass handed to me by a Cobra.

I will for sure get flamed for this remark: An M3 is not king **** of the car world. To be honest, it's not even king **** of the euro world. BMW owners need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that the M3 really isn't quite so "high in the sportscar world" that the majority of BMW owners seem to think it is. Yes, it handles well, yes, it accelerates well, but it is by no means a top performer, especially for it's new car pricerange. And before anyone touts remarks of class and prestige try to remember this is about performance, not which is more likely to get you laid (I think a cobra would out here anyways :D ).

With that said, I love BMWs.

Well im going to say you have alot of guts to make such a right wing comment....i respect that!

but as for everyone who said the M3 would get eaten! sure the cobra has 400hp and 400lb/ft torque but you need to look at the figures here...

THEY ARE ALMOST THE SAME...meaning it would be a tie
A 20 milisecond difference is hardly visable by the naked eye..i think the M3 would give the stang a run for its money.

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 06:23 AM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
For it's CLASS.

The M3 class is the "Luxury Performance Saloon - Mid Class", not the "High Performance Road/Track Car" like the Mustang Cobra *where's a rolleye smiley when I need one?*... So as such should not be placed in the same class and still praised like it's king ****.

By the way, by mid class I mean: It's not a mercedes (which is High Class).

*flamesuit*

How is Mercedes a high class and BMW is a mid-class? :confused:

tlaselva
01-14-2004, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by moerom
Trust me the Cobra walks away from the M3 at any speed. They are underrated and most 03/04 Cobra's make 380-390 at the wheels, which means around 440 at the crank.

HOWEVER

I would take an M3 anyday because of the feel, balance, and the prestige.

In terms of raw numbers though, the Cobra dominates this comparison.

Acurately, and well put.

Cobra also has the appeal of it's pertensity of being easily modded to some rediculous HP levels....:eek:

But if it were between the two, the M would be in my garage.

Originally posted by MorningCruiser

I will for sure get flamed for this remark: An M3 is not king **** of the car world. To be honest, it's not even king **** of the euro world. BMW owners need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that the M3 really isn't quite so "high in the sportscar world" that the majority of BMW owners seem to think it is. Yes, it handles well, yes, it accelerates well, but it is by no means a top performer, especially for it's new car pricerange. And before anyone touts remarks of class and prestige try to remember this is about performance, not which is more likely to get you laid (I think a cobra would out here anyways :D ).

With that said, I love BMWs.

I agree with you in this position.

The E46 M3's primary focus is building a car for the masses, not for the performance enthusiast. So specs like somewhat heavy weight, tendency to oversteer are overlooked for the sake of making the car more 'general public' friendly.

IMO, the CSL M3 is the true M3. A car built for performance, with very little compromise. It's truly unfortunate that it's so expensive, and will not pass N/A government standards. *mumble*

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by tlaselva
It's truly unfortunate that it's so expensive, and will not pass N/A government standards. *mumble*


Im prettysure the reason why it is not in NA is the price tag, not the government standarts.

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 06:48 AM
SickFinga, Mercedes is known world round for performance and utmost luxury. That's what I was referring to by high-class and mid-class. Yes I have sat in both an SL55 and an M3, the SL55 was far more comfortable in my mind, and put a bigger grin on my face as a passenger than an E46 or even E36 M3 as a driver (I like the E30 M3 more than the E36 M3, and the E36 M3 more than the E46, so basically I think the E30 M3 is king of the Ms).

I personally feel that the E46 M3 is BMWs sad attempt at making a performance car out of a boat. That said it needs a diet, much greater than what the CSL offers. Rip out the backseat and you might be getting closer to the weight range I speak of.

Oh, and I'll agree that the CSL isn't here because of government standards. It costs less than 911TT AWDs and GT3s, and we still have those don't we? Oh, and Ferarris and SL55s and even CL65s...

Regardless, Jammaster, acceleration is not everything from naught (Zero). You need power to have consistant acceleration once you downshift and pin it at 100km/h. The M3 lacks sufficient said power to keep up with a Cobra.

And if you care to beg that corners on the race track are taken from 0km/h, get your head checked.

Edit - Hm, three typos, one reply? Sleep needed.

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 06:57 AM
Oh, and another thing, slalom speed doesn't say how a car would handle on a race track, it's a measure of constant back and forth movement at maximum speed before rear end breakaway.

What we're discussing here is: base a comparison off of two laps (not one, because then it doesn't permit the ability to fully accelerate down the straightaway) on a road course, under as close as possible to the same conditions (including temperature and humidity).

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 07:08 AM
MorningCruiser, no offense but it sounds like you dont know a lot about cars and their classes.

Why would you compare M3 to the SL55? (Lowest BMW to the highest Benz).
Try C32 AMG to E46 M3.
And Z8 to SL55.
Mercedes isnt really know for their performance in regular car and even AMG. Mercedes only improved their acceleration on the last models by adding FI. But they still dont handle as good as BMW and do not stop better than BMW. Previous models couldn't even come close performance wise. And since when performance cars come only as Automatic?

Yes we do have more expensive cars that are more expensive than CSL, but what I meant is that there is not a lot of people that would pay 30k more for the BMW which has no radio or ac.
And CL65 will never come to NA. ;)

I would also agree that Benz has a slightly higher interior quality, but not that much higher to be in the different category.
Also you cant really put whole brand in one category.
Like 320 is far away from 760Li and C230 isnt even close to the S600.

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 07:12 AM
and about the whole Cobra vs M3 thing.
c'mon we are comparing Supercharged V8 4.6l to a Natural Aspired 3.2l ;)

DOnt you think BMW did pretty good?

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 07:24 AM
True I made a crude comparison, but I also made a comparison using "Sports flagships" from MB and BMW. True the Z8 would have been a better example to compare against an SL55.

And I know a lot about cars, and a lot about their classes. CL65 will come to north america (actually, I believe there are two in LA and four in detroit, not on the dealer's lot either), it's simply a matter of money.

I never said MBs could kick the crap out of BMWs, I said they're placed in a higher class due to their more luxurious interiors, and I do believe they are on a higher level in terms of "vehicle class" because of that. It's like asking why Lotus isn't in the same class as say Aston Martin, or why Mercedes isn't in the same class as Bentley.

I do however, highly agree that it is a poor idea to put all of a single company into a single class. However, I think overally Mercedes will always be placed in a higher class due to it's luxury and prestige by not only me, but the majority of the public.

Oh and as a joke, most old muscle cars came as automatics primarily, and I'm willing to bet they could kick the crap out of a similarly priced BMW :D In a straight line... of course.

And if your lack of knowledge about cars remark was in reference to my track/skidpad remarks, try it yourself.

Horsepower is a byproduct of torque and gearing, acceleration is also a byproduct of torque and gearing. Speed is a byproduct of horsepower. Cornering ability is a byproduct of steering design, vehicle weight and driver skill (simply put). If you can name a single race track where they have ten turns in rapid succession (back and forth) where the track is only one highway lane wide, I'll give you $10.

I also agree that the CSL is ridiculous (like I said, I think the E46 M3 is BMWs attempt at making a performance car out of a boat/pig/paperweight) in price for what you get. "Look it's an M3, with a lightweight roof, a useless trunk, and lighter wheels coupled with a cute trunklid made out of a saturn's doors!" Essentially...

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by SickFinga
and about the whole Cobra vs M3 thing.
c'mon we are comparing Supercharged V8 4.6l to a Natural Aspired 3.2l ;)

DOnt you think BMW did pretty good?

Considering we're comparing an american muscle car to a german touring car, yes, they did very good. Like I said before, they're not in the same class, and acceleration from 0-60 doesn't mean much ;)

I personally think the M5 to Cobra would be a better comparison, other than the fact that the M5 is a "luxury performance sedan" and the Cobra is a "high performance street/track coupe". At least the M5 is in the power range :D

Edit - PS - Sickfinga, every reply after my first had one real thing in mind: To stir things up and make people think instead of just being magazine benchmark racers.

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 07:43 AM
Like i said Mercedes usually does have a bit higher quality interior, but not enough to place it in the different category.
BMW did a way better job in 3series than Benz in C class (previous models, never sat in the current class)
Also a lot of car magazines said that current 7 series has a higher quality interior than S class ( i posted a link before, do a search if you care)


Also old american cars werent really a performance car.
They were pure straight line cars with horrible handling. And like you said 0-60 means nothing. Performance cars got good acceleration, good handling, good breaking.

CL65 is not comming. Check Road and Track magazine and ask openwheel (Mercedes Benz Salesman) But i wish they were here, nothing like 605hp.

Wel you can compare M5 to Cobra, but then again. M5 is a full size car with big trunk and 4 doors and also naturaly aspired. But then again, price tag is different.

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser

Edit - PS - Sickfinga, every reply after my first had one real thing in mind: To stir things up and make people think instead of just being magazine benchmark racers.

Well magazines our only way out really.

Not all of us can take M3 and Cobra for a test drive. Real test drive, with hard acceleration, track runs, braking and etc.
So reading magazines is pretty much the only way to find out about cars for us.

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 07:54 AM
Current class C series puts the 3s to shame I feel when it comes to the interior (personal opinion might be a factor).

I'd personally take an S-class over a 7 series any day, I've sat in a 745il and an S600, aswell as driven both, and quite frankly, the MB just takes the cake (mind you, I wasn't trying to drive the piss out of the cars, so maybe the 745 could still beat the MB).

I could have sworn I saw some photos of the CL65 in LA and Detroit hm, maybe I'm losing it?

Like I said about the M5, it's at least in the horsepower range. Other than that, it's got just as much in common with the Cobra as the M3 does. Nothing else. The M3 is in the same body style class, nothing more.

And like I said you could take a comparitely priced muscle car (old one), an automatic, and put it up against a bmw (in the same price range again), and race them in a straight line, and they'd certainly win. I made that remark only to prove that many performance cars (at the time the term performance meant it had a lot of power) came basically only as automatics, many of those cars hardly made it to canada as a standard.

Like I said, I'm just trying to stir things up cause this magazine benchmark racing is getting really annoying...

It's like saying that because a car can go faster according to paper, it can in real life with different drivers.

I will state one thing that if anyone disagrees with me, I will laugh at them. 75% of a race is driver skill, 25% is the car. There are of course some exceptions (the R34 Skyline with active control AWD comes to mind, since it makes most of us look like better drivers than we are), as there are to everything.

Edit - It's not being able to do magazine test drives, it's knowing people who own the cars who are willing to let you flog them.

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 08:04 AM
Id take S600 over 7 series cause nothing like a V12 Bi-Turbo.

Do you know people that own E46 m3 and Cobra and S600 and 760Li and M5 and SL55 that would let you borrow it for a nice good test drive?? Maybe you do, i know some people on here got access to better and faster cars, but not all of us that lucky.

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 04:23 PM
Everything but the 760Li so far. Everyone I know with that kind of money says that it's too ridiculous in cost and that the S600 is much more worth it.

Most of the people I know who will let me flog their cars are people that I've met at car shows, those that are in their late 30s up through their late 60s and early 70s. They have the money to buy the cars, they approve of me "testing" their cars, because they too like to see the limits of the vehicles even if they feel they're not capable of driving them that hard.

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
Everything but the 760Li so far. Everyone I know with that kind of money says that it's too ridiculous in cost and that the S600 is much more worth it.



too ridiculous in cost ????
isnt s600 is like extra 20g?

M3ti Compact
01-14-2004, 06:53 PM
The new looks and interiors of the 5,6, and 7 will eventually grow on you. I remember when the last generation Civic came out I thought I was the ugliest piece of shit out there. Then the Prelude came out, which was even uglier! But now, they are OK...and some look cool tuned up. Same with the new infinity's...there were prototype photos out for years before production, and I thought they looked ass. But by the time they finally produced them, they look OK now.

And about the M3 vs. Cobra thing. These are completely different categories of cars. The M3 is a Grand Tourer. The Cobra is a purpose built muscle car. The Cobra should be compared to the Corvette, Camaro, GTO etc...

Even through price might be very different, people buy BM's for different reasons than the people who by Cobras

Jammasterj
01-14-2004, 09:18 PM
Well I must say, a lot of people have very strong viewpoints on where Bmw and the M3 stand in the car world...in relation to Mercedes and Ford.
These viewpoints are what being a car guy is all about.

All I know is that it's pretty hard to compare BMW and Ford.
The whole car from the front fender, to the ability to corner is a completely different machine. Neither of them handle quite like the other so its almost like comparing apples to oranges. The mustang for example is a great straight line car, speaking from experience. BMW and the M3 have that German touch that gives them a good all-round feel. But the fact of the matter is that they are both great machines in a different sense.

If they did get the chance to go at it, it would be one hell of a show!

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 09:21 PM
This should sum up the whole Cabra vs M3 convo. ;)

http://armanii.c.crosslink.net/bmwpics/Best_E46_M3_TJs.jpg

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 10:05 PM
Dude, it's an M3 with SLR sidegrilles on the hood :/ IMO that looks like a tank, not a performance car. Fuuuuuuuuuuuugly. The E46 from the coupe/sedan/convertible perspective is fine, but from the performance car perspective is ridiculous. It's like saying that a B-52 bomber can outhandle an F22... But this is of course, opinion.

And about the S600 being a better car they for the most part have issues with the fact that BMW doesn't care how the dealers treat the customer. I can speak from experience when I say that the BMWs treat most people like dirt, while the MB dealers will cater to you if you walk in wearing sweats and a holy tee. I'm a youngin, and if I walk into a BMW dealership, I'm basically told to take a hike, even if I show up in an M5 or S600. If I walk into the MB dealer, the salesmen aren't sharks in suits, they're pleasant, and very helpful. If I want to testdrive an ML500 they will let me, whereas I'd be giving the BMW dealership a Ferarri just to sit in an X5. Apparently this treatment matters to those who are loaded.

I'm a guy who shoots from the hip, makes me loved by some, hated by others. And by the way, once you've driven a Cobra, you won't be able to compare it to an M3 because it exceeds the M3's performance on all levels. Remember that I said performance and not luxury ;)

Either way, I'd still rather have an E30 M3 over an E46 M3, least the E30 feels like a track car. It's like the Z4, I believe it was Top Gear that complained that it had "too rough a ride" and remarked that it is the "American sporty feel". I dunno about you, but how many race cars have you seen with 250lb coils/springs? Most are upward of 400lb coils, and ride like a tank.

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 10:20 PM
If you think that is ugly, you must go kill yourself right now.
M3 is a perfromance luxury car no matter what you say.
Im prety sure for the E30 M3 days, it was pretty damn heavy.
With new emission and safety laws cars are getting heavier and heavier.
m3 won tonns of awards, and even Jeremy, who hates BMW, praised it.

So, get a rope and a soap buddy ;) j/k

MorningCruiser
01-14-2004, 10:29 PM
I never said the E46 is ugly, I said that car you posted is ugly :puke:

I never said they're a bad car either. Just their power:weight ratio is pretty weak considering how much more you pay for an M3. It's like the CSL, you're paying $25,000 for things you could do for $2500. Oh, and a chassis code and a boot logo.

And it's not even the weight, it's how it handles given it's status as a "turning car". True, it handles well, but it's fallen off the pedestal that the E30 M3 gave the M3 line.

And you cannot tell me that the 75lb front seats are necessary for safety ;) Anyone care to weigh an E46 M3 seat? 75lbs was a guess.

To me high performance means: Considerable power, ultra-lightweight (to begin with, shouldn't be a $30,000 to go from heavy to not-so-heavy), and proper suspension geometry permitting good handling, coupled with stiff suspension thus removing majority of body roll and other negative characteristics of hard cornering.

*/rant in hopes of stirring up someone other than SickFinga*

PS - SickFinga come on man, give me a good strong response, none of this "If you think that car is ugly, you're an idiot" stuff. Give me reasons to love the car ;)

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 11:23 PM
Here is a reason, you praise e30 m3 so much, but E46 m3 has better power to weight ratio.
Also why is E46 m3 a pig? Cobra weight even more.

I think i gave you a lot of strong responses and you didnt really give anything except it WEIGHT alot.
E46 M3 will outhandle e30 m3 period. and why you praise e30 m3 so much? please explain.
CSL were alway expensive BMWs. 3.0 CSL cost more money than Aston Martin, now compare M3 csl to cheapest aston martin.
And yes, seats are a part of the safty.

M3 weight less than C32 and S4.

crazyvadim
01-14-2004, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by SickFinga


M3 weight less than C32 and S4.

Why are you comparing a coupe to 4 door sport sedans??

Jon@Bimmersport
01-14-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by crazyvadim
Why are you comparing a coupe to 4 door sport sedans??

because they are compared like that in magazines...

Jon@Bimmersport
01-14-2004, 11:31 PM
*th-up*

ROCKETMAN
01-14-2004, 11:32 PM
Because they are in the same class.
high performance versions of their entery cars.

Jon@Bimmersport
01-14-2004, 11:32 PM
*mw* *love*

Jon@Bimmersport
01-14-2004, 11:33 PM
:P

Jon@Bimmersport
01-14-2004, 11:33 PM
our little comparison!

ROCKETMAN
01-14-2004, 11:34 PM
And since u guys are talking about interior quality, and if an M3 is better than a C32,....the S4 has the best quality and best performance. (straight accelerationit losses a bit, but laptimes are quite a bit faster) Plus the looks:cool: :D

SickFinga
01-14-2004, 11:49 PM
best quality and best performance?
pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease
not Audi or Benz can compete with S54B32
Audi is what? V8?
Benz is what? V6 Supercharged?

wanna go back in time?
previous audi was what?
V6 2.7 Twin Turbo?
and benz? C43 was a v8, wasnt it?
And c'mon Automatic?

Vadim, why I am comparing 4 door to 2 door?
well if you are talking about the weight.
E36 sedan were slightly lighter than coupes.
E46 coupe are 30 pounds lighter(not a big deal really)
So less doors doesnt always mean lighter.

ROCKETMAN
01-14-2004, 11:53 PM
the type of engine that they have doesnt matter. They all put in what they thought would be best. And teh s4 has a 6 speed manual.

SickFinga
01-15-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by ROCKETMAN
the type of engine that they have doesnt matter. They all put in what they thought would be best. And teh s4 has a 6 speed manual.

yes it doesnt
but lets compare times and hp what those engine produce and lets see who got better car.

Auto was for benz

crazyvadim
01-15-2004, 12:06 AM
Bmw has the best engineering,i aprreciate the fact that they dont need boost to compete with their rivals.Its all about NA!

IVAN
01-15-2004, 12:06 AM
haha crazy! Hey dude you think S600 is worth its money and 760 is not? Btw 760iL is 170Gs and S600 180GS thats what is says on official mb\ and BMW sites...So you think that they slould sell the 760Li for 90K hmm not in this movie!

Then I can imagine what people think aboyt Z8 hahaha

IVAN
01-15-2004, 12:08 AM
I bet ya all most of MB lovers treat BMW like its some sorta Acura or Opel hahaa .This is so true.

ROCKETMAN
01-15-2004, 12:14 AM
but lets compare times and hp what those engine produce and lets see who got better car.


I said my previous comment based on seeing that the S4 lapped faster.

SickFinga
01-15-2004, 12:22 AM
on the wet track with 4 wheel drive, yeah it did.

ROCKETMAN
01-15-2004, 12:23 AM
lol. no.
on a dry track. by about 1 sec.(not exactly sure) If it was wet, than it would have been like 5+sec

MorningCruiser
01-15-2004, 05:22 AM
I'm praising the E30 M3 because it was (as we all know) the world's most successful coupe racecar in the world. It set new standards and was REVOLUTIONARY. The E36 and E46 M3s are all but revolutionary.

I should hope that a 15 year newer car could outhandle the older. The M3 is supposed to be a performance car, and it is far from it. I think that BMW made a mistake in regards to what they should classify as a sports car. The E36 was pushing away from the old M3 in all means, and the E46 is just completely gone from it. Where is the revolutionary design concepts? The level of standards that it should set in the performance coupe world?

I'm putting up a general direction argument, and that's in regards to the direction BMW is headed. Honestly, it's headed on a runaway train to unrelating to it's roots. Look at the 2002s, they spanked a large majority of what was out there, and were cheaper than the competition. The new M3 is about 50/50% for performance against other cars, but it costs way more money. No, I don't feel that it should cost less than the average sporty car, I feel that it should be made into a good performer and reduced in cost. My argument is a general argument that BMW is headed to "americanization" with an added $20,000 for each car for importing it and because it carries the roundel rather than the bowtie. Yes, there's still that build quality, and there's still that prestige, but someone has to go against spending boat loads of money on something that is not worth that much.

I have some strong doubts any of that made any sense, so if it makes no sense, I'll read over it tommorow and make another post.

And Ivan, I don't have $180,000 to blow on a car like an S600, so no, I don't feel that it is worth that much more than the 760Li (I've never been in an 760 before). The rich guys I know don't want to touch the BMW dealer bravado with a ten foot pole for a $200,000 car. They should be wiping their asses with golden toilet paper, but instead they act as if they're 10x better than every customer that walks in *no-no*

By the way, SickFinga, best quality/performance goes beyond the most reliable. I'm not one of those fancy pants rich guys, but I will tell you I'd take a C230K for a DD over a 325 E46. Just personal opinion. And to be honest, I think our unending argument should end, because we're getting into opinion territory, completely and entirely.

Mystikal
01-15-2004, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
I'm praising the E30 M3 because it was (as we all know) the world's most successful coupe racecar in the world. It set new standards and was REVOLUTIONARY. The E36 and E46 M3s are all but revolutionary.

I should hope that a 15 year newer car could outhandle the older. The M3 is supposed to be a performance car, and it is far from it. I think that BMW made a mistake in regards to what they should classify as a sports car. The E36 was pushing away from the old M3 in all means, and the E46 is just completely gone from it.

*smoke* I'll smoke to that. Get your flame suit on though.

SickFinga
01-15-2004, 05:46 AM
MorningCruiser, Im sorry, but from reading your posts I see you dont know much about BMW/AUDI/BENZ.

You want revolutionary? Well you can do revolutions every with ever car generations, it just not gonna happen.
Why e30 was revolutionary. Well e30 m3 and e28 m5 started the whole tunned cars from the dealer thing. Same with a lot of other cars. Lets take SL for example. 300SL with gullwing doors will always be classic and revolutionary car. Current SL55AMG will be forgotten in 15-20 years. 2002 spanked everything? what did it spank. THe only 2002 that could spank something was 2002 Turbo. And while you are there check the price tag on e30 m3, you will be surprised.

Jammasterj
01-15-2004, 06:34 AM
OK im just going to throw my nose in here and settle a few things.
The E46 M3 is one of the best production cars on the market in my opinion.
The car is dead fast, its got break neck acceleration and can tackle hairpin turns like its a walk in the park.
Not to mention that the car is soooo damn sexy to look at!
Im talking EYE CANDY HERE!
So whats not to love?

Sure I bet the cobra may be able to beat it in a few categories but we are talking a comparison between an outsourced beefed up mustang to a stock BMW. A true comparison would be between the Dinan M3 and the Cobra. Which one would win in that case???? um Dinan M3!!!

And Mercedes??? What are we here boys a couple of old geezers? Geez
Luxury cars they may make but they dont hold a candle to BMWs performance luxury lineup

moerom
01-15-2004, 06:57 AM
The SVT Cobra is not outsourced. It is a stock production car. Ford's SVT is the same as BMW's M Division.

Cobra is faster in a straight line, BMW will tend to be faster in a tighter track, Cobra will win in a more open track.

For the money you would spend on a Dinan M3, I could get a 10 second Cobra and have money left over to take a long trip.

SickFinga
01-15-2004, 07:11 AM
Moe, maybe in Canada, but I wanna see you do that in Europe.
Stock V6 mustang will cost you as 330ci prolly.

Ohhh moe, and for 60k you could;ve gotten yourself a 9 sec CRX, why did you buy yourself a truck?
I know people that would take a 9sec crx, and I know people that would rather take a stock Lightning.
it is a matter of preference here.

SickFinga
01-15-2004, 07:13 AM
Jammasterj, Dinan M3 is not much faster than stock M3.
Im pretty sure Dinan got only CAI, exhaust and ECU. Thats nothing really.

crazyvadim
01-15-2004, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by moerom

For the money you would spend on a Dinan M3, I could get a 10 second Cobra and have money left over to take a long trip.

Very true,but you would still be coming back from your trip to a Ford and il be coming back to a BMW.Oh yeah and im not that type of person thats all about BMW,i have owned a few domestics in my lifetime and i really like the cobra hell maybe the CTS V will be replacing my M5 soon.

Gamite
01-15-2004, 07:21 AM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
Dude, it's an M3 with SLR sidegrilles on the hood :/ IMO that looks like a tank, not a performance car. Fuuuuuuuuuuuugly. The E46 from the coupe/sedan/convertible perspective is fine, but from the performance car perspective is ridiculous. It's like saying that a B-52 bomber can outhandle an F22... But this is of course, opinion.



grills are from M3 GTR, not SLR coppies. U'r a crackhead if you think that's ugly, but alas, that's just my opinion. ;)

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/07/m3_gtr_street2.jpg

crazyvadim
01-15-2004, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by SickFinga
Jammasterj, Dinan M3 is not much faster than stock M3.
Im pretty sure Dinan got only CAI, exhaust and ECU. Thats nothing really.

Talking about the S2?? it has the stage 3 suspension,exhaust,intake,throttle body,gears and ECU and heavier dinan wheels.
Its at 360 Hp and 3,390lbs over the stock 3,415lbs m3

moerom
01-15-2004, 08:25 AM
HGAHAHAHAH

You guys actually think I would take a Cobra over an M3?

You're crazy!

Alpine White M3 w/ 19, 6 spd w/ Imola interior!!


Cobra is nice and fast, but the M3 is artwork:)

Jon@Bimmersport
01-15-2004, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by moerom
HGAHAHAHAH

You guys actually think I would take a Cobra over an M3?

You're crazy!

Alpine White M3 w/ 19, 6 spd w/ Imola interior!!


Cobra is nice and fast, but the M3 is artwork:)

:D

M3 over SVT for sure right here....

wat good is a 10sec SVT, when ur handling goes down the drain to make it 10sec...

M3 with RMS is what im talkin bout..right M3NTALM3? *th-up* :D

GR8 Ride
01-15-2004, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
And I know a lot about cars, and a lot about their classes. CL65 will come to north america (actually, I believe there are two in LA and four in detroit, not on the dealer's lot either), it's simply a matter of money.

Oh and as a joke, most old muscle cars came as automatics primarily, and I'm willing to bet they could kick the crap out of a similarly priced BMW :D In a straight line... of course.

And if your lack of knowledge about cars remark was in reference to my track/skidpad remarks, try it yourself.

Horsepower is a byproduct of torque and gearing, acceleration is also a byproduct of torque and gearing. Speed is a byproduct of horsepower. Cornering ability is a byproduct of steering design, vehicle weight and driver skill (simply put). If you can name a single race track where they have ten turns in rapid succession (back and forth) where the track is only one highway lane wide, I'll give you $10.

I also agree that the CSL is ridiculous (like I said, I think the E46 M3 is BMWs attempt at making a performance car out of a boat/pig/paperweight) in price for what you get. "Look it's an M3, with a lightweight roof, a useless trunk, and lighter wheels coupled with a cute trunklid made out of a saturn's doors!" Essentially...

Ok, I can only let this crap go on for so long before I must inject some sense (and some experience) into the discussion.

One, HP has absolutely NOTHING to do with gearing....take a basic class in physics before you start spouting off crap on the internet like every other 14 year old out there. I'll smack Jon down when he makes bone-headed claims, but he's at least willing to learn, and has largely gotten his s**t together lately.

I could tear apart the rest of your claims in that mere paragraph alone, but I'll pretty much guarantee that you're nothing but a teenager who's in love with Mustangs, and really knows jack about an M3, or driving on the racetrack for that matter. Try it sometime, you might learn something. Your comments on cornering ability were particularly laughable....best get to work on studying vehicle design and dynamics.

Two, the claims you're making about the Cobra vs the M3 are ridiculous....have you driven either, and especially, have you driven either ON A RACE TRACK? This coming from a guy who lives in Calgary, with a single, modified drag strip turned road course? (Race City Speedway). Yes, been there, done that, grew up there, threw out all the T-Shirts.

Laptimes are a function of a HUGE number of things, and can't be accurately summed up by comparing skidpad and slalom numbers, combined with 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. Given equally competent drivers, the Cobra will get it's ass handed to it on the race track, even a high horsepower track like Mosport.

A couple of problems with the Mustang's suspension design, which translates directly into cornering ability, and the ability to carry speed through the corners.

One, it's a hacked McStrut up front, with the spring being inboard of the shock. Also, the front center of gravity is sigificantly higher than the roll center...when you lower the car, you can actually lower the Mustang's roll center to BELOW THE GROUND. This means you get massive body roll in the front end, and severe camber changes as the suspension loads up on one side or the other. So, you compensate for this by upping the spring rates, which causes the front end to push, or understeer. Which means you need to back out of the throttle to get the pig to turn-in.

Two, even though it has an independent rear suspension, it's basically a bolt-on unit for the solid axle that's been used since the Ford Fairmont days. It's still subject to some of the bind that has plagued the Mustang since 1978, and still has a center of gravity that is WAY up in the air.

Three, the Mustang weighs in about 3800 lbs, in Cobra trim. It's about 400 lbs more than the M3, and on the racetrack, MASS is the enemy.

Four, the Cobra brakes, while *ok*, basically suck. Some decent pads make it a bit better, but they don't hold up well to track abuse, largely due to the excessive weight the Mustang carries around.

Five, steering feedback. The Mustang uses a loose rag joint type lower steering shaft, which provides minimal steering feedback to the driver. This also contributes heavily toward poor corner entry, as the driver can't *feel* where the car is, and what it's doing.

Six, caster, and bumpsteer. Sure, one can install caster / camber plates into the Mustang in an effort to get more caster, and thus some more steering feedback, but once you do, you develop a bumpsteer problem on the front end. It can be solved, but you're going after-market to do it. I believe you were suggesting a stock to stock comparison.

Seven, camber curves. The front camber curve on the Mustang (because of the hacked McStrut) is terribly. The car actually gains positive camber when the suspension loads up, meaning that you need to dial in a TON of negative camber when unloaded. All of this affects both straight line stability and cornering ability.


So, care to bring any tech to dispute any of this, or are you merely going to shut up about the Mustang clobbering the M3 on the racetrack?

And would I rather have an E30 M3 than an E36 or E46 M3? Nope....given the money to build a racecar to suit my needs (let me see...oh yes, I've already done that once...to an M3....probably doing it again....TO A MUSTANG). So, I know a little bit about what it takes to make either car handle, and while the Mustang might have a cheaper entry price, it's going to take a bunch more money to get it to handle anywhere even close to the BMW.



Pat

Bavaria
01-15-2004, 03:03 PM
yumm
http://www.motorsport-xl.de/automobil/sportwagen/alms/2001/jpg/bmw_alms_j_mueller_220.jpg

SickFinga
01-15-2004, 07:57 PM
Pat :eek:

mkgino
01-15-2004, 08:07 PM
Wow, major ownage. I wish I knew this stuff.

UncleJ
01-15-2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by mkgino
Wow, major ownage. I wish I knew this stuff.

x2

Kurt Schneller
01-15-2004, 09:29 PM
bwhahahaha, Pat, You just made my day, I am saving this to my drive :)

sonny
01-15-2004, 09:31 PM
Without a doubt, the M3.

ROCKETMAN
01-15-2004, 10:13 PM
A true comparison would be between the Dinan M3 and the Cobra. Which one would win in that case???? um Dinan M3!!!

No it wouldnt. if you wanna go to aftermarket enhancments, than the Dinan M3 would be a competitor to the SALEEN tuned Mustang.

BMW_M52_M20
01-15-2004, 11:38 PM
Well, I knwo the regualr mustangs have been using the same suspension set up since the 70's.......no joke, road and track said it gets and upgrade for the 04/05 mustang.

I have been in the 4.6L 2000 GT, and I felt very uneasy on the turns.
Jay

BMW_M52_M20
01-15-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by MorningCruiser
I'm gonna get flamed out the behind for this but on the track the cobra would walk on the M3.

Even if it couldn't keep up in corners (though I'd put money on it that it can), as soon as it's outta the corner it's for 400ft-lbs of torque and 400hp to push it past the M3.

Be honest now, American cars don't handle nearly as bad as everyone makes them out to. I'd take an M over a Cobra, but I'd still get my ass handed to me by a Cobra.

I will for sure get flamed for this remark: An M3 is not king **** of the car world. To be honest, it's not even king **** of the euro world. BMW owners need to pull their heads out of the sand and realise that the M3 really isn't quite so "high in the sportscar world" that the majority of BMW owners seem to think it is. Yes, it handles well, yes, it accelerates well, but it is by no means a top performer, especially for it's new car pricerange. And before anyone touts remarks of class and prestige try to remember this is about performance, not which is more likely to get you laid (I think a cobra would out here anyways :D ).


With that said, I love BMWs.

100bhp per litre? 3.3L, inline 6, flat tourque curve, one of the fastest production cars, and praised by all people who drive them? I think that is a damn amazing car.

Jammasterj
01-15-2004, 11:56 PM
Sorry guys I meant to compare the dinan M3 to the saleen...it was just late and I was quite tired....

The dinan M3 does have a few major upgrades if you go with the S2 package:
Stage 4 Engine Software; High Flow Cold Air Intake/Air Mass Meter Assembly; Free Flow Exhaust; High Flow Throttle Bodies; Strut Tower Brace; Shock Tower Brace; Stage 2 Suspension System; 3.91 Limited Slip Differential; Signature Series Floor Mats; Dinan Deck Lid Badge and Serial Numbered Dinan-S2 Plaque.

That will give you a meaty 30 more hp and 21 more lb/ft of torque.
Peak Horsepower ..361 bhp @ 7900 rpm
Peak Horsepower Gain.............29 bhp @ 7500 rpm
Peak Torque .282 lb/ft @ 5000 rpm
Peak Torque Gain...................21 lb/ft @ 7500 rpm

Enough to make you wet your pants...
Not to mention the fact that you car will be dinan registered and the value will increase substantially

and btw...Pat everything about the mustang you said was true, we just needed someone to say it

crazyvadim
01-16-2004, 12:51 AM
I think Pat officially closed this discussion.

tlaselva
01-16-2004, 01:01 AM
Thanks for chiming in Pat.

Good to hear from someone who know's what they're talking about. *th-up*

SickFinga
01-16-2004, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by BMW_M52_M20
Well, I knwo the regualr mustangs have been using the same suspension set up since the 70's.......no joke, road and track said it gets and upgrade for the 04/05 mustang.

I have been in the 4.6L 2000 GT, and I felt very uneasy on the turns.
Jay

doesnt look like it
http://www.cdw27.org/stang/05MUST70.jpg

Mystikal
01-16-2004, 06:17 AM
Originally posted by SickFinga
doesnt look like it
http://www.cdw27.org/stang/05MUST70.jpg

It is completely retooled though, for example on the front there is a much more conventional Macstrut setup with the coils over the strut. They maintained that an IRS is too pricey for a cheap musclecar.

GR8 Ride
01-16-2004, 01:37 PM
Actually, on the 2005 Mustang, the front suspension is nearly identical to the M3. Proper McPherson strut, sway bar connected to the strut, and a V shaped lower control arm that looks an awful lot like the M3 version.

As to the rear end, the Mustang now has a 3-link rear suspension (unlike the previous 4-link). The 3-link rear suspension includes lower control arms to locate the solid axle, plus a pan-hard bar to locate the axle from side to side, and a torque arm to help locate the axle front to rear.

I haven't seen any details on the *new* IRS for the 2006+ Cobra, but supposedly it will be a completely new unit, and unlike the bolt-in mess on the '03 Cobra.



Pat

ROCKETMAN
01-17-2004, 12:36 AM
*th-up*

BladeRunner
01-17-2004, 01:03 AM
BMW is really pissing me off. I love that they believe in the Natural Aspiration but they must do something about the power and displassment thing. A 3.2L shoud be making 300-320HP, 2.8L should 260-280HP, AND FOR GODS SAKE 1.8L SHOULD BE 160-180L. But I guess the reason for that is BMWs are meant to modded where as others are meant to come modded. However, the new BMWs if the OBD-II is what you all say they are not meant to be modded at all.

E36pilot
01-17-2004, 03:20 PM
LOL I hear this all the time from people I know and here is my response: I'll run side by side a Cobra from my gen with my heated seats on and my Harmon Kardon blasting. My purchase was between a Cobra and this, I chose this after I read the Edmunds.com review. The handling is key here. I also Hate all the wheel well space in the stangs...theres like 4-5 inches exposed.....what are they going off-raod with it next? The tucked body to wheel style of the M is da bomb! I have to say though I smile ear to ear and get envious when I hear a Cobra with dual Flowmaster exhaust..that sumbitch sounds badarse!!!!!!!!!!

Mystikal
01-17-2004, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by BladeRunner
BMW is really pissing me off. I love that they believe in the Natural Aspiration but they must do something about the power and displassment thing. A 3.2L shoud be making 300-320HP, 2.8L should 260-280HP, AND FOR GODS SAKE 1.8L SHOULD BE 160-180L. But I guess the reason for that is BMWs are meant to modded where as others are meant to come modded. However, the new BMWs if the OBD-II is what you all say they are not meant to be modded at all.

:huh?: The 3.2 in the M3 makes 333hp already. If you want a regular production 6-cylinder to be close to 100hp/L then expect base prices to rise by thousands, and BMW would go bankrupt. Geez, they are already the fastest accelerating cars in their classes, what more do you want?

BladeRunner
01-19-2004, 04:28 AM
I DEMAND SATISFACTION *slap* *shiner*.....I forgot about the new M3 motor *shiner* :( *sleep*

Jon@Bimmersport
01-19-2004, 04:51 AM
mystikal...i dunno, doesnt MB kill them for 0-60 times with their AMG series vs M series? im not sure, but u got all those stats so post it up

beamerboycsl
01-22-2004, 03:22 PM
yea well the new one series is suppose to have a 2.0 turbo producing some where around 220hp, no more all naturally asparated engine.

Mystikal
01-23-2004, 02:44 AM
Originally posted by E46_lover
mystikal...i dunno, doesnt MB kill them for 0-60 times with their AMG series vs M series? im not sure, but u got all those stats so post it up

If you re-read my post I'm talking about the non-M models. Besides, only the E55 is faster (for now).

Bill Gates
01-23-2004, 03:09 AM
i was going to comment, but Pat seemed to have covered everything. :D

damn, nice write up! *th-up*

Jon@Bimmersport
01-23-2004, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by Mystikal
If you re-read my post I'm talking about the non-M models. Besides, only the E55 is faster (for now).

u refer to the M3 motor...not a 325 or 330 motor...

S600 isnt faster than 760Li?

S600 wont be faster than 645 (OR HIGHER)? S55 not faster than M6?

only askin..get some of those #'s from your source and lets compare.

Btw...thanks for the comment Pat. *th-up*

Mystikal
01-23-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by E46_lover
u refer to the M3 motor...not a 325 or 330 motor...

S600 isnt faster than 760Li?

Man, read the damn thing this time and don't gloss over.

I'll give you the S600.

objec
01-23-2004, 07:37 PM
you put me in the m3 6 speed and ill will, for sure

Jon@Bimmersport
01-23-2004, 11:49 PM
oops..i meant SL600 vs 645

SickFinga
01-23-2004, 11:52 PM
well you gotta compare SL500 to 645.
and then IF bmw will make 660, then it will be still slower than SL600 (cant fuk with v12 Bi-Turbo)

SickFinga
01-23-2004, 11:54 PM
btw MorningCruiser never came back after Pat's reply.
ultimate ownage