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EMPOWERD
04-21-2002, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by ROB89M3
On the double apex section, I almost lost it!!! (lack of concentration) This was my only mistake out of the whole day.
:)

We watched you go to the outside of turn two and thought you were dead!.... You even kicked up dirt from going off momentarily. You did awsome at the Autocross Rob, probably the best of your run group..... didn't have to give you a single pointer. You should come to the Autocross event on the 28th of April. The worst thing you can do is loose concentration... especially going 150km/h around an off-camber double apex turn! Things like that are remembered by the instructor and really frowned upon... they want to see consistancy more than anything.

KIRASIR
04-21-2002, 12:21 AM
Good job! Glad you had fun.

So who is coming to the auto-x on 28th?

SL

330DTM
04-21-2002, 01:28 AM
Rob89M3,

Great to hear you had fun! Too bad I couldn't make it :P

Anyways, where will this Autocross April 28th event take place? Exact location?

KIRASIR
04-21-2002, 03:58 AM
http://www.bmwclub.ca/trillium.htm

at the bottom of the page

SL

Originally posted by 328DTM
Rob89M3,

Great to hear you had fun! Too bad I couldn't make it :P

Anyways, where will this Autocross April 28th event take place? Exact location?

'88 325e
04-21-2002, 01:27 PM
I would say that you did an excellent job on the skid track. I wish I had more time to see you go on the track. Well I posted pics from Saturday in the Events section and good luck Sunday man!

L8R,
Dave

got torque?
04-22-2002, 10:10 AM
Rob

You may find that your car will outperform a Mustang on an autocross course, but on the track I can promise you that you will have your ass handed to you every time. I don't care how much money you throw at your car.

You have 2.5 litres, a Mustang has 5.0 litres. Mosport has a straightaway that is a mile long- you do the math.

I watched several bone-stock Mustangs crush E46 M3's at Mosport this weekend.

You're new at this, and telling people that you only made one mistake all weekend is a joke. Everyone makes mistakes, every time out. Over time, you'll see what I mean.

BTW, your car looks great. Now get some seat time.

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 10:21 AM
Well, I'll defend Rob a little on this one.

My little *2.5 litre* motor ate up several Mustangs on the weekend; the only one I have some trouble with was Mike's, and his car is both well set up, and extremely well driven.

In the 1/2 hour though, there wasn't enough time to catch Mike, though I was lapping faster than he was. I could sure use some of that torque coming out of turn 5C though...

Jordan's car (if not for the rotor issue), was the quickest Mustang on the track, and pretty close to the quickest car (Bob's E36 and John's E30 M3 might be a little quicker, unfortunately there was little opportunity to find out).

The Mustang's, however, are a lot cheaper to build into a fast track car than the BMW's....sigh...

Pat

got torque?
04-22-2002, 10:52 AM
Pat

From what I can see, your car is more than a little different that Rob's, so it is a bit of an exception.

I was just trying to get him to avoid making assumptions. Appearances can be VERY deceiving, especially at the track.

Dismissing a car because it cannot turn well on a skidpad autocross is very narrow-minded.

Every car has its forte- an F1 car might not do well on an autocross course- does that mean it's a bad car?

Playing Devil's advocate is fun- Rob makes it very easy....

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 11:42 AM
Yes, that's true. I'll say one thing for the Mustang guys; they certainly take a difficult car to drive on the track, and make it perform well. Some bizarre (by BMW standards) suspension setups are required to handle that thing. 1000 lb springs in the front, 280 lbs in the rear. Almost opposite from what I'm doing...

Now, onto the important part of the equation, and that's the driver. A *good* driver can make ANY car fast; just look at Peter in his Hyundai at the track....

Rob did *ok* for his first time out, and it's good that he came. Plenty of guys buy very fast cars, and NEVER take an advanced driving school...at least he's done that much.


A couple of words of advice Rob....


One, your car is too stiffly sprung at the moment. You don't have the tires or the skills to handle it, and it's getting you into trouble. On Sunday, the *red mist* got ahold of you in the last session, and fishtailing all the way down corner 2 is a dangerous thing to do. Always, always, always listen to what your instructor is telling you... Your car was VERY close to being a write-off; good luck and good instruction prevented you from being towed home on a flatbed.

Two, you NEED to get the notion of *racing* out of your head. You'll never learn anything while you're attempting to keep up with the guy in front of you, or while trying to lose the guy behind you. You've been to one driving school; you're a C class student, and will be so for a few more driving schools. Relax a little; nobody goes from C to A in only a few schools. Use the opportunity to learn as much as you can. So what if somebody passes you? Maybe he's a C student who's on his 4th or 5th school, and should be a B student instead. It's not a race, there is no trophy at the end of it. This is what got you into trouble in the example above.

Three, lose the ego. Yes, you're young, and have a great car. However, you'll NEVER be fast on the race track with an ego preventing you from learning HOW to be fast. Remember, I started where you are now, three years ago (with the BMW Club anyway). I was slow, I hated to let people pass me, but until you realize that there are faster cars and faster drivers, and learn to forget about them, then you'll never be fast.

Always remember to not only listen to your instructor, but to pay attention to him. This includes Rolf and the other guys running the exercises. At the exercises is where you learn car control at safe speeds; that learning directly applies to what you're doing at the track.


Rob, what you're going through is the same thing everybody else is going through. You weren't as good as you *thought* you were going into the school, and could be a little discouraged by it. Your next school, you'll see the progress you'll be making, and by your third school, you'll be hooked.

Trust me, keep attending as many driving schools as you can; and particularly go to some of the Raven days at TMSP (Cayuga). Get enough schools under your belt, and you'll soon be fast, and running in the B group and eventually the A group.

Save your *mod* money for schools, and once you're an A student, then start spending some money to improve the performance of your car. One thing happens to students who spend endless amounts of money as a C or B student to improve their car; they end up with very fast cars with very poor skills to handle that car. Inevitably, they have an *off*. Unfortunately, because the car is so fast, and the driver unskilled, the *off* tends to be ugly, expensive, and potentially harmful. This past weekend, you nearly had 2 *offs* in arguably the most notorious corner in North America, and that's only as a C student.

Relax, even on the track, you need to slow down to learn something...


Pat

M3ntal Kev
04-22-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by got torque?
Pat

From what I can see, your car is more than a little different that Rob's, so it is a bit of an exception.

I was just trying to get him to avoid making assumptions. Appearances can be VERY deceiving, especially at the track.

Dismissing a car because it cannot turn well on a skidpad autocross is very narrow-minded.

Every car has its forte- an F1 car might not do well on an autocross course- does that mean it's a bad car?

Playing Devil's advocate is fun- Rob makes it very easy....

Actually, I don't think that our e30 M3s do very well on Rolf's autocrosses at all. Generally our cars seem, to me anyway, to be suited to a faster more open circuit. I am always fighting the power steering pump/system during autocrosses as well as fumbling with 1st gear which is too short and 2nd which is too tall.

But it was a good weekend; a little cold but good.

M3ntal Kev
04-22-2002, 12:11 PM
Pat,
You make some pretty awesome points. You really have to clear your mind and leave your ego at home.

got torque?
04-22-2002, 12:21 PM
I hope you don't take any of this stuff personally, Rob. If people didn't want to see you get better, they'd just ignore you.

You are fortunate that you have a few experienced people to give you some good free advice. Soak it up.

You'll get fast with more schools and seat time. You have a great car to work with, you just need to keep the big picture in mind. Leave your ego and prejudices at the track gate, and try to learn as much as possible. You'll get there....

EMPOWERD
04-22-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by ROB89M3
,so did those pilons! Without those pilons,I would have been in the wall for sure!



Tsk, Tsk, Tsk....

Rob, try not to rely on those turn-in/brake point/apex pylons. That's the worst you can do! There are no pylons in real driving situations and a lot of instructors frown upon the use of them due to students becoming too reliant on their placement. They usually take them away by Sunday afternoon. I guess it's a good idea for new students, just don't rely on them too much.

Pat....

Nicely said!

got torque?
04-22-2002, 01:23 PM
Rob

People here are always telling you to listen first and become educated on a given topic before you speak, and you continually spout BS at every opportunity.

First off, going quickly on the track, while listening to an instructor and concentrating on your line, are all things that a skilled driver can do. You are not skilled enough yet to do it all at once, so you nearly drove off the track- plain and simple.

Your ego is preventing you from admitting that you made a mistake- a common problem with beginners. You drove beyond your skill level, and you found out what happens. Hopefully you don't do it again (in Turn 2 anyway).

Now, perhaps you could explain just how the weight of a Mustang's engine affects it's autocross performance? Thanks.

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 01:47 PM
Well, it's doubtful you're taking corner 2 at 160 Kph, but it IS a very fast corner.

Relax Rob, we're not doing this to bash you; we're doing this because some of us have been doing this for a few years now, and we're trying to (A) help you learn how to drive better and (B) help prevent you from having a major incident in the future.

Your second *incident* at Corner 2 wasn't lack of concentration, it was more the *red mist* kicking in; you failed to brake for 2, and had to plant the rear end with the throttle to snake your car around the corner. If I were you, I'd be buying Ray a case of beer for saving your car and very nearly your life. If he wasn't in the car with you, you would likely have hit the brakes, and we'd be sending in the flatbed and ambulance after you. The instructors and I had a LONG discussion about it Sunday night as we were packing up trailers...

You'll get there eventually, provided that you stick to it, and attend as many schools as you can. The worst case scenario would be if you attended this one school only, and thought you had nothing more to learn. You've only made a minor *bump* on the learning curve of high speed driving. There are people on this board who could take your car, and run laps around you with it. Randy, Kev, Bruno and quite possibly a few others...

Absolutely, I learn something new EVERY day I'm at the track; I learned several things about myself as a driver, my car (and how it handles....which is bloody AWESOME), and my own personal limits with the car.

Don't worry Rob, this is meant to support you; we prefer to see young students come to driving schools and learn how to drive extremely well, and responsibly, rather than *learning* at lousy, no helmet open lapping sessions, or by rocketing down the 407 at 200 Kph. Just stick with the driving schools, and you'll be an excellent driver one day.

Pat

got torque?
04-22-2002, 01:48 PM
Tell us something that we don't already know.

A rear-engined Porsche isn't balanced either.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Hopefully you can listen to some of these good people here and fix your attitude before you return to the track. Good Luck.

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by empowerd



Tsk, Tsk, Tsk....

Rob, try not to rely on those turn-in/brake point/apex pylons. That's the worst you can do! There are no pylons in real driving situations and a lot of instructors frown upon the use of them due to students becoming too reliant on their placement. They usually take them away by Sunday afternoon. I guess it's a good idea for new students, just don't rely on them too much.

Pat....

Nicely said!

Another point about those pylons. They're placed there for the C and B students to watch those points, but when you're good enough Rob, we invite the *best of the best* in A to attend the Friday sessions as well.

On Fridays, there are NO pylons to mark turn-in points, braking points, exits etc on the track.

Use the pylons for now, but as your skills improve, you'll need to understand "the line", and the pylons will be something you'll forget are even there.

I barely notice the pylons even being there on Saturdays and Sundays, and usually only pay attention to them when one has been punted out of place, and unfortunately onto the track.

Another important factor occurs as you get better; you'll notice that things seem to slow down; coming around turn one, most B and C students didn't notice the rubber tie-down strap (with both metal hooks still in it) sitting off the line to their right.

Most A students are good enough to notice it, without having to directly look at it. This goes back to the vision that Derek was talking about, and the ability for really good drivers to have everything feel as if it was in slow motion for them.

The weekend is over now; relax and start to work on some of the things you learned at the track. You'll start braking in a straight line on the street; your turning will be smoother, you won't be jumping on the brakes or on the gas, but will learn to squeeze the throttle, and massage the brake pedal. It's not a conscious thing Rob; but attend enough schools, and it will become second nature.

The worst thing you can do, is take the speed factor from this past weekend, and decide you're the fastest, safest driver on the highways and streets. Most A students and instructors have forgotten more about high performance driving than you've learned so far; keep the speed at the track, but apply your car control skills to the street.

Pat

'88 325e
04-22-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by got torque?
Rob

You may find that your car will outperform a Mustang on an autocross course, but on the track I can promise you that you will have your ass handed to you every time. I don't care how much money you throw at your car.

You have 2.5 litres, a Mustang has 5.0 litres. Mosport has a straightaway that is a mile long- you do the math.

Ha! Ha! Ha! A 5.0L Mustang could never beat a modified E30 M3! If you put that M3 and the 5.0L in the hands of a highly skilled driver the M3 will take it hands down. Sorry guy! Mustangs are great at a dragstrip not at a road course! And yeah I have heard that old saying: "Anything can be made to handle." Lets just be realistic. The 5 point slow needs to be extemely modified to keep up with a modified M3!

EMPOWERD
04-22-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by '88 325e


Ha! Ha! Ha! A 5.0L Mustang could never beat a modified E30 M3! If you put that M3 and the 5.0L in the hands of a highly skilled driver the M3 will take it hands down. Sorry guy! Mustangs are great at a dragstrip not at a road course! And yeah I have heard that old saying: "Anything can be made to handle." Lets just be realistic. The 5 point slow needs to be extemely modified to keep up with a modified M3!


..... You obviously never met Derek!

Ignorance is BLISS!

'88 325e
04-22-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by empowerd



..... You obviously never met Derek!

Ignorance is BLISS!

Randy,

I would love to see a race with an equally set up M3 and 5.0L with the same driver. If Derek had the time to set up and learn the M3 will it go faster than the 5.0L? I think so. I know there are fast Mustangs out there that will hand me my ass even if I mod my car, because I know that I don't have ANY track time!

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 05:50 PM
No offense Dave, but I hate blanket statements like that one, from both sides.

As a guy who has spent a fair amount of his waking hours at the track, it's sure something to see various cars which *supposedly* don't handle well, do exactly that.

Take three of the Mustangs that were at Mosport this weekend. Keith's car is *relatively stock*, in terms of power anyway. He has a half cage, and some suspension work, but power-wise, his car is stock (much like mine is). Yes, on a clean lap, I could leave his car in the dust, but it certainly wasn't easy.

And Mike's car handles extremely well, and had the added benefit of significantly more HP than Keith's. A couple of times I'd leave two cars in front of him, and finish the session two cars behind him (and no, nobody passed me during the session). In order to catch Mike, I'd need a LOT of clean laps, a flawless drive on my part, and a little more than 1/2 hour to do it. If I didn't get one of those, it could easily be the other way around.

I'm as biased towards BMW's as anybody, but I'll certainly say that those Mustangs, in spite of a lousy, solid axle rear-end, can certainly handle well when properly setup. Bang for the buck, I'd have to give the nod to the Mustang.

And this is from a guy who had a couple of instructors *begging* to go for a ride with me, rather than the other way around.

It's interesting when they both giggle like school girls going around Corner 2 at near 180 km/h, and staying flat-out through turns 3 and 4 (my exit speed at 4 is roughly equivalent to my back-straight speed; 195 km/h).

Jordan called my car "the best handling car he's EVER been in", and to be honest, I don't think I could match lap times with his Mustang; we'll try it sometime, but I'm willing to bet his Mustang is quicker than my car. Between us, the drivers are *relatively* equal...

That being said, I still wouldn't sell my BMW for a Mustang....


Pat

got torque?
04-22-2002, 05:52 PM
88 325e:

I can't make this any simpler:

You are a MORON if you stand by that statement. It also shows everyone that you know NOTHING about track driving.

Ask Randy if he can get past a Mustang at Mosport- he is honest and will tell you he usually can't. Pat will tell you that they gave him some solid competition all weekend long.

Were you at Mosport this weekend? If so, were you paying attention to what was happening on the track? It sounds like you weren't.

Let me recap because you're obviously living on another planet here: VERY SLIGHTLY modified Fords (springs/shocks/tires/brake pads) were absolutely crushing E30, E36, and E46 M3's. Got it?

Try this, smart guy: call Derek Hanson and tell him that he wasted nearly 20 years at DECH. You must know something he doesn't. I can promise you, he has forgotten more about what makes a car quick that you will EVER know.

The reality is that many people are too ignorant, conceited, or just plain dumb to admit that a car worth 15 grand will make mincemeat out of cars that cost 4 times as much. IT IS A FACT.

Nobody is claiming that a Mustang is the be-all and end-all in sports cars. It has its shortcomings. The fact remains that there is no greater performance value out there on a purely horsepower per dollar basis.

You asked for it, you got it.

Any questions?

M3ntal Kev
04-22-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by '88 325e


Ha! Ha! Ha! A 5.0L Mustang could never beat a modified E30 M3! If you put that M3 and the 5.0L in the hands of a highly skilled driver the M3 will take it hands down. Sorry guy! Mustangs are great at a dragstrip not at a road course! And yeah I have heard that old saying: "Anything can be made to handle." Lets just be realistic. The 5 point slow needs to be extemely modified to keep up with a modified M3!

While we're being realistic, the Mustang has torque and hp on the e30 M3 and whole shit load of it. Mustangs can be made to handle as well as M3s. Dollar for dollar I think the Mustang is a much faster track car than the M3, even though it may not be as elegant, it is bloody fast.

The cars are very different and as such have to be driven very differently.

Anyone ever hear of a Herb Adams suspension for the late 70s early eighties Camaros and Trans Ams? Those cars could pull 1g back in those days with the technology of the times. Something to think about.

got torque?
04-22-2002, 06:01 PM
Thanks for the dose of reality, Kevin.

Dave really stepped into a pile with such a dumbass statement.

I will be the first to admit- a Mustang is heavy, ugly and uses a pretty weakass suspension. BUT IT WORKS. And it works even better with not much investment.

Plus, it's fun to root for the underdog.....

'88 325e
04-22-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by got torque?
88 325e:

I can't make this any simpler:

You are a MORON if you stand by that statement. It also shows everyone that you know NOTHING about track driving.

Ask Randy if he can get past a Mustang at Mosport- he is honest and will tell you he usually can't. Pat will tell you that they gave him some solid competition all weekend long.

Were you at Mosport this weekend? If so, were you paying attention to what was happening on the track? It sounds like you weren't.

Let me recap because you're obviously living on another planet here: VERY SLIGHTLY modified Fords (springs/shocks/tires/brake pads) were absolutely crushing E30, E36, and E46 M3's. Got it?

Try this, smart guy: call Derek Hanson and tell him that he wasted nearly 20 years at DECH. You must know something he doesn't. I can promise you, he has forgotten more about what makes a car quick that you will EVER know.

The reality is that many people are too ignorant, conceited, or just plain dumb to admit that a car worth 15 grand will make mincemeat out of cars that cost 4 times as much. IT IS A FACT.

Nobody is claiming that a Mustang is the be-all and end-all in sports cars. It has its shortcomings. The fact remains that there is no greater performance value out there on a purely horsepower per dollar basis.

You asked for it, you got it.

Any questions?

Moron? Smart guy? Ignorant? Conceited? Just plain dumb? Well you are never going to get your point across if you call people that.

Also I never said Derek whom I have never met wasn't any of those things! OK! Lets get that straight! I have heard that he is a great driver and I have never second guessed it. I would never say those things to someone unless it was to their face so lets just drop the silly names and be the better man. Cool?

I have admited that I have NO track time so there are things that I would like to learn. So i'm not stubborn or a sore loser so I can admit when i'm wrong.

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by M3ntal Kev
[B]

While we're being realistic, the Mustang has torque and hp on the e30 M3 and whole shit load of it. Mustangs can be made to handle as well as M3s. Dollar for dollar I think the Mustang is a much faster track car than the M3, even though it may not be as elegant, it is bloody fast.



I'll disagree on the point that the Mustangs can be made to handle as well as the BMWs. The Mustangs can be made to handle *well*, but I will suggest that no Mustang there can corner like John's car, Bob's car or mine. The solid rear axle gets in the way, as you can't have an independent suspension in the rear. (Fox body anyway). Small caveat; yes, more money solves everything, but my point being that short of changing the ENTIRE rear suspension / axle / drivetrain....

However, cornering speed is but ONE factor in overall laptimes. The Mustangs are able to have excellent cornering speed, and massive torque to pull out of corners. And I won't even mention the damn straightline speed I had to contend with.... They might not handle AS WELL, but overall laptimes are the only qualifier that really matters.

In the A group, there were a LOT of cars well into the 1:4x's; exact numbers, I don't know. I'd suggest all three of the Mustangs in that group were running in the 1:4x's (Brock's, Keith's and Mike's). I don't have any official laptimes, but I know times that some other cars were running, so my comparison is vaguely based on this.

Pat

straight_6
04-22-2002, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by got torque?
Tell us something that we don't already know.

A rear-engined Porsche isn't balanced either.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Hopefully you can listen to some of these good people here and fix your attitude before you return to the track. Good Luck.

got torque,

As a member of the BMWCC and a spectator this past weekend, I was just wondering what car you drive? Are you the Bruno that Pat talks about? What's your experience with tracktime since you seem quite knowledgable on the subject?

got torque?
04-22-2002, 08:04 PM
Rob S:
What you posted makes no sense. DTM racing is Touring Car racing. Do you know what a Touring Car is? It's a sedan, otherwise known as a four-door automobile (or saloon if you like).
I don't recall ever seeing a 4-door Mustang. Besides, the results of one race series don't end any argument.

This was never about me saying that "M3's suck" in fact, the M3 is my all-time favorite car, I just haven't been fortunate enough to own one (yet).

88 325e:
I never called you a dumbass, I said you made a dumbass statement. I get pretty pissed when people make blanket statements without any first hand experience, which you've admitted you lack.

Sorry if you don't like my delivery, but my points come across loud and clear. I know what I'm talking about. I am not out to offend you, but you hit a sore point.

Straight Six:
I'm active in the BMW Club as well. In fact, I don't think I've ever missed a Trillium Chapter driving school in the last 5 years. I have first-hand experience with BMW's and Mustangs, so I am qualified to comment.

Not that it matters who I am- I'm stating arguments backed by facts, not speculation or generalization.

Pat:
I hope some of your objectivity rubs off on some of these people.
And you're 100% right about the limitations of a solid axle. On a race track, however, a solid axle works OK because the surface is usually quite smooth. A solid axle runs into trouble when trying to put power down on an uneven surface.

700hp Trans-Am cars still run solid axles, so they CAN be made to be race-worthy, but as you pointed out, at what cost?

Everyone:
This is a great discussion. Please don't take any of it personally. For the record, I would make any of the same points to any of you in person- it's just opinion, after all.

M3ntal Kev
04-22-2002, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Bad-Karma
I'll disagree on the point that the Mustangs can be made to handle as well as the BMWs. The Mustangs can be made to handle *well*, but I will suggest that no Mustang there can corner like John's car, Bob's car or mine. The solid rear axle gets in the way, as you can't have an independent suspension in the rear. (Fox body anyway). Small caveat; yes, more money solves everything, but my point being that short of changing the ENTIRE rear suspension / axle / drivetrain....

You're totally correct, Pat, but the key factor is money without a doubt. In 88 the M3 was about $55k CDN which was due to design and engineering costs. The Mustang was nowhere near that cost in 88 or even today (except may be the Cobra-R). It would be interesting to see what a $55k purpose (lapping) built Mustang could muster up... or may be I've already seen it and not recognized it.

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by ROB89M3
okay,to end this topic ,all I have to say is this...

Btw: Mustangs were in fact in the DTM Racing series in the late '80's early '90's. I don't think they even came close to matching the Bimmers and Mercs...period.

Remeber,a car can go as fast as the $$$ and driver will take it.

Shows how little you know about car racing....

One thing to consider Rob, and you're failing to look at this. Several Mustangs and Camaros which ran in the DTM were forced to run with weight restrictions and intake restrictions (much like the BMW M3 GTR is for ALMS) to counter-act the torque / HP advantage they had. DTM was seriously biased (as all race series are unfortunately biased to one manufacturer or another) towards German cars.

Unfortunately, racing is not the pure, athletic sport we wish it was, but rather faces a lot of political battles (Euro vs domestic, Porsche vs BMW etc), and generally the winner is the one who spends the most money. The German DTM teams generally had BMW factory support; the Mustangs in DTM were privateers, and did not have the massive factory support of Ford behind them.

The counter comparison to this would be the SCCA racing of the 80's. On Ford and GM's home turf, Mustangs and Camaros of the day readily took home the crown in road racing. This included racing that took place at Mosport.

Those Mustangs were turning laptimes back in the 80's of 1:20 seconds or less. (Average speed of 100 MPH for the course). The BMW M3 GTR turned a best time of 1:18 at the ALMS last year...nearly 20 years later, with a host of technological improvements over that time (tires, compounds, suspension design et al).

My *best* time at Mosport *might* be in the high 1:30s....and most BMW Club racers running in the Modified class (Euro motors, AP Racing brakes etc) are running in the 1:30 - 1:32 range. (Average speed around 90 MPH for the course).

Generally, North American perception of the Mustang is on the dragstrip, and not the road course. In spite of Ford's best efforts to change that image, it still sticks.

Personally, I'd like to see how well the new Cobra R would handle on Mosport compared to the new E46 M3.

Anybody care to loan me a couple of cars and some track time at Mosport?

Pat

got torque?
04-22-2002, 08:16 PM
Kevin

A purpose built Mustang with 55K invested in it would get around Mosport under 1:30, guaranteed. I don't think we'll ever get to see that, however. There is too much negativity attached to the Stangs (drag-only car=negativity) and too many more prestigious options at that level of investment.

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by got torque?

Pat:
I hope some of your objectivity rubs off on some of these people.
And you're 100% right about the limitations of a solid axle. On a race track, however, a solid axle works OK because the surface is usually quite smooth. A solid axle runs into trouble when trying to put power down on an uneven surface.

700hp Trans-Am cars still run solid axles, so they CAN be made to be race-worthy, but as you pointed out, at what cost?



Yes, which is why the solid rear axle is choice for a drag strip car, but less so for a road car.

Here in Canada we're blessed with very smooth tracks, but several race tracks in the U.S. are not so smooth, which hampers the ability of the solid rear axle to handle transitions, and the ability to put full power down at the apex. Obviously, this affects corner exit speed, and overall laptimes.

Also, due to the lousy weight balance of the Mustang (Fox body again; I don't a whole lot about the current generation Mustang...), which is a dismal 67/33 front/rear, you can't run stiff enough springs in the rear to keep both rear wheels planted in hard corners. If you run too stiff a set of springs in the rear, the car gets unsettled over rough surfaces, and can easily kick sideways on you....it's always one trade-off for another.

Most of the Mustangs guys in the BMW Club (odd statement that one...) are running 1000 lb springs in the front to prevent nose dive on braking, and 280 lbs springs in the rear. The problem with the solid rear axle and soft springs is that you can *almost* lift wheels completely off the ground cornering, thus losing some cornering traction, and also your acceleration traction. Thank God for limited slip differentials....

Stiff roll cages and seam welded chassis can help to deflect some of this issue as well, since the front will remain fully planted with stiff enough springs, and if the chassis doesn't flex, the rear can stay planted as well.

However, a LOT of engineering work has to go into making the Mustang a truly fast car on the road course (though parts are bloody cheap, and commonly available....sigh....).

The BMW is a no-brainer in terms of being able to make it a kick-ass road car, though the cost of playing at that level is quite high.

The torque from the Ford V8 is very addictive though, and if I actually had enough money to do it, I'd be tempted to build a Mustang as a quick track car. Doubtful I'd be able to corner as quickly as I do now, but I bet I could build a kick-ass track car for under $20,000 CDN. Part of being able to corner at those speeds is the feedback the chassis gives you, and that's something that is *extremely hard* to buy in the aftermarket....it's just a 'feel' thing....

Naw....I still like taking corner 4 flat out, no braking, nothing....it's that "pit of your stomach" feeling cresting the hill at 4 knowing you're committed NOW, and every instinct in your body is telling you "what the f$$$ are you doing at this speed???!!!". It's something else to enter it at 160 K, and exit at 195K.

It's that "holy sh!t, I hope my brakes work!" at the bottom of 5 that gets you every time....

That, and having a couple of instructors giggling while going for a ride in my car.....


Pat


PS. I *think* I know who "Got Torque" is, but I'll leave that up to them to confirm....

'88 325e
04-22-2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by got torque?
88 325e:

I can't make this any simpler:

You are a MORON if you stand by that statement. It also shows everyone that you know NOTHING about track driving.

What the hell is that? I did take offence to it and it just showed everyone who read it how much of a child you are. Words are just words and I would never act apon it in any manner. I just hope you realize that one day you might say something to the wrong person.

Obviously you can't take someones opinion and you have to have the last word. I understand that you have an opinion as well, but the way you said it lacked professionalism. As I stated earlier A) I'm no professional track driver. B) I lack experiance being only 25. C) I wish to learn even if it means that i'm wrong. So if picking on someone that is not as good or experianced as you makes you feel better than fine with me.

And this blanket statement crap has to go. I never said that it is impossible that a Mustang could NEVER beat an M3! It all comes down to two things that HAVE to be there.....MONEY and DRIVER. Hell if I were the richest man in the world and the best driver in the world I could make a Chevette the fastest thing in the world.

I will state my opinion again. Mustangs are good cars and they can be made to go fast. The E30 M3 is a really good car and it can be made to go even faster even with just four cylinders. Ask yourself this...What would a Mustang do with a four cylinder engine with proper balance? And...What would a M3 do with a V8 with proper balance?

If i'm still wrong I can accept valid points, but please do it in a grown up manner please! Lets not turn this great board into a big bitch fest. Sound good?

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 09:08 PM
On a side note with the weekend at Mosport, I didn't realize how great my closing speed was on some of the cars in front of me...

At least once (my fault), I was cresting the top of turn 2 (during which you're committed, and changes to the pattern are VERY dangerous), I came up on Anne's Mazda Miata. I saw her entering 2 as I was exiting turn 1, but I thought her car would have been farther through than that...

Coming through turn 2 at 160 K, and all of a sudden I'm closing in on her Miata like a missile. Ooops, and that damn decision time: brake hard, and kiss my ass goodbye, or rear-end another car on the track.

Thankfully, my car has tonnes more grip than even I suspected, and a generous application of brake, steering input and throttle, and the back end didn't even get squirrely on me.

I think I scared the crap out of her though....it's pretty bad when I lap the same car 5 or 6 times during a 1/2 hour session...

Every 3 - 3.5 laps, I would end up behind her car.

Oh well, traffic is fun to play in as well....I actually enjoyed starting last in the group, and dicing my way through the crowd, rather than starting out in front and having to lap everyone.

On another side note, if you ever want to buy an absolute missile on the race track, and not have to do anything to it, buy a Z06.

Very easy to drive, and very bloody fast. No challenge in it at all, as it makes even so-so drivers look good, but it's still a damn fast car.

With the right tires, I think I could easily get that car into the low 1:30s...

Pat

PS This is a great thread; I'm enjoying it quite a bit.

Hopefully Rob, you're learing something from all of this.

I expect to see you signed up for June Mosport, and I expect to see you at one or more of the Raven days prior to then. You'll be surprised at how much you learn, and how much better you'll be.

got torque?
04-22-2002, 09:55 PM
88 325e

Nobody's picking on you. I'm telling you why what you said is wrong. Again, sorry if you don't like my style of delivery.

"this blanket statement crap" will go, as soon as you stop making them.

You stated that a "5 point slow" could never beat an M3 at the track. I told you that you're wrong, and I proved it. Everyone who was at the track this past weekend saw what I'm talking about. If you said that shit in front of me, I'd react the same way.
No hard feelings, and I'm sure I could learn something from you about BMW's.

Next time you're at Mosport, we should find you a ride in a DECH Mustang- you'd be very surprised. Much more of a sledgehammer approach vs. BMW's scalpel, but tons of fun (and that sound.....)

Pat, you're 100% right about the "feel" that cannot be bought and sold in the aftermarket. For example, Japanese carmakers have been trying to get their cars to "feel" European for decades, with zero forward progress in my opinion. They still feel like tin cans, and those that don't tend to weigh 4500LBS. Their cars have no "soul" to them.

PS - I will remain anonymous for the time being. I seem to have caused some rather emotional reactions here, so it's probably a good idea. Excellent thread!!!

GR8 Ride
04-22-2002, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by ROB89M3
Got torque,

Glad you're here to help us understand.*th-up*
The only thing I fail to realize is that how can a car that weighs alot,is not nimble,not aerodynamic,make it all up in power?

A good race car needs a bit if everything,agree? Heck,those fox body Mustangs don't even have effective rear wings...

Well, let's look at the physics of it.

Overall weight probably isn't significantly more than that of the M3; a couple hundred pounds perhaps; more than covered by the torque generated by the V8.

Balance is an issue, and the 67/33 weight distribution is a problem, as I mentioned in the comments earlier.

Nimble is a relative term; it's not bad in terms of being nimble; not as much so as the M3, but overall it's still pretty good.

Nimbleness doesn't always translate into speed either, it depends upon the track. A track like Mosport doesn't require extremely nimble cars, as there is really only ONE tight corner (5), and several very high speed corners (1, 2, 3, 4 and 8). Turn 6 and 7 are essentially highway corners, which leaves 9 and 10 as the medium to slow type corners. Out of the 10 corners at Mosport, the M3 has a significant advantage in only 3 of them.

The exit to 2 of those corners are the long straights, so the torque of the V8 can counter-act some cornering speed on those two.

So, in addition to nimbleness, there is flat-out cornering speed as well. Turns 1, 2, 3 and 4 are elevation change type corners, and can be very fast in an M3. The weight bias of the Mustang makes them a little slower (relatively...) than the M3, particularly on 2, where the nose will want to drag the car to the outside too early, and you run out of track. As well, it will tend to push through 3, and a little so through 4, forcing the car off the desired line.

However, slow-in, fast out is the general rule on a track, and it's much easier to be fast out with torque in the 200-300 ft-lb range.

Lots of torque (and proper gearing) also allows the driver to spend more time in one gear, and shifting can slow you down. The M3 gearbox needs to be rowed to keep the engine on the boil, so all that time you spend shifting, the Mustang spends accelerating.

Stock for stock, I'd take the M3 over the Mustang. Given R-compounds on each, I could probably lap the M3 much faster than the Mustang (by stock, I mean factory stock, springs, shocks, everything...).

Dollar for dollar, I can build a lot more Mustang for $20,000 than I could build M3....

Pat

'88 325e
04-22-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by got torque?
If you said that shit in front of me, I'd react the same way.

Ok first off i'm not going to hid behind a screen name so my name is Dave not '88 325e.

Second could you clean up the language (see above quote)? I know we are adults so lets start acting like one!

Third I will stand by my opinion just as you have yours. I will leave it as that and no hard feelings! Trust me on that! If you really know me I don't like to argue. Alrighty then? Cool!

*th-up*

got torque?
04-23-2002, 01:15 PM
Rob

Bad Karma pretty much nailed it, although the understeering due to weight distribution he describes in turns 2 and 4 is not exactly accurate. In those corners, if you are within INCHES of the right line, you can get the front end to grip very well. Doing that consistently is another story.

This whole discussion has been about Mosport. It's commonly known as a "power track" for a reason. A heavier car can use it's corner exit speed to get down the straights more quickly than one with less torque available.

If you bring Cayuga or S'Ville into the picture, things swing in the M3's favor very quickly. A short, twisty track is where a well balanced, lighter and more nimble car will work the transitions better than a heavier car.

Driving a Stang at Mosport is a real "point and shoot" exercise: apex everything late, so you can get the car pointed straight ASAP in order to get the power down. If you see a Mustang early apexing at Mosport in a driving school environment, the driver has either made a mistake, or is VERY good at throttle steering and managing corner exit slip angles.

There is no perfect car- certain cars excel at certain circuits.

Hope I've shed some light on this stuff.

EMPOWERD
04-24-2002, 01:52 AM
I've got three guesses.....

1) John Dimoff
2) Jordan (red Mustang/318is)
3) Christian Sorensen

close?

got torque?
04-24-2002, 09:17 AM
Well...

3 out of the 4 "Mustang Dudes" (as Rob calls them) drive BMW's as daily drivers.

So any three of those people could have expressed the opinions here. Then again, many people could have.

Funny guesses- John Dimoff- that one made me laugh out loud. Even as a joke, I don't think he'd ever say anything good about a Mustang...the BMW gods would strike the Raven trailer with lightning !!!

Most fun I've had on a bulletin board in a while.

GR8 Ride
04-24-2002, 10:29 AM
Well, it's most definately not me, and I seriously doubt it's John (he's a little too tightly wound for that...).

Derek doesn't spend a lot of time on the internet, so we could rule out him as well.

Actually, there were *5* Mustang guys at the track this weekend, Mike, Keith, Brock, Jordan and some guy in B group I don't know....

I *think* I know who it is, but I'll leave it up to them to announce it. Let's just say I think he has the same job, at the same company, that Gerry had 20 years ago....


On a side note, I'm sure he can get Keith to spin me off a copy of the video tape(s) he took on the weekend; I'd really like to actually SEE how my car looked on the track.


Pat

got torque?
04-24-2002, 10:38 AM
Pat

In the near future, you will receive a CD that contains your second last session from this past Saturday....the one where Gerry Low barged his way out of the pits and into the VERY hot laps that you guys were turning.

I'll let you know when I get my hands on it.

M3ntal Kev
04-24-2002, 11:01 AM
Does anyone have any video of the lowly B group guys? :)

got torque?
04-24-2002, 03:36 PM
Deleted.

Rob S. knows everything.

M3ntal Kev
04-24-2002, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by got torque?
There would never be in-car video of "B" or "C" students. "A" students are allowed to do it occasionally, with special permission from John Dimoff. He agrees to it, but very reluctantly.


I was more interested in track-side footage as I noticed there were a people taping and snapping stills.

In car footage does make people stupid... I remember an internet video in a Subie that rolled because the driver was too busy being a tour guide rather than a driver.

got torque?
04-24-2002, 03:55 PM
Rob

I was going to tear into your juvenile attitude, but I've already hurt enough peoples' "tender" feelings on this board.

I'll wait until Pat sees your smart-ass response.

If I were you I'd run for cover- this is gonna get ugly.....

got torque?
04-24-2002, 04:05 PM
Deleted.

Rob S. knows everything.

got torque?
04-24-2002, 05:04 PM
All I can say is this: you're sure living up to your reputation.

That's about all I have to say to you. See you at the track.

SickFinga
04-24-2002, 05:09 PM
Damn I got a perfect pic for this thread
http://i.love.it.when.you.hold.it.when.i.stick-it.nu/pics/domesticEthug.jpg

EMPOWERD
04-24-2002, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by ROB89M3


Then there is Pat to correct me when I'm wrong.... :D *th-up*


Why do you continue to kiss Pat's ass? That is so annoying! You've been doing that for ages.... give it up!

P.S. learn to admit you're wrong sometimes and try not to always have the last word... one day you'll meet someone that'll rearrange your face.

SickFinga
04-24-2002, 06:36 PM
to cool this thread off, I got a couple of question.
1. How can go to the track?
2. How much is it?
3. How long I will spend driving?
4. Can my bro drive my car too?
5. How bad is it to a car?
6. What are my chances to f*ck my car over?
7. I am a pussy, what if I'll be driving too slow for a track?

SickFinga
04-24-2002, 06:43 PM
hmmm the whole thread started to be off-topic on the second page.
And I think my questions are exactly ON topic.

'88 325e
04-24-2002, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by got torque?
I've already hurt enough peoples' "tender" feelings on this board.

I wouldn't talk there Mr. I'm too chicken to reveal who I am! Ha! Ha! Ha! Don't get me wrong here. I would never "do" anything stupid because I argued with some guy on the internet. You actually made me laugh with some of those "silly" comments! Ha! Ha! Ha! :D

GR8 Ride
04-24-2002, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by empowerd



Why do you continue to kiss Pat's ass? That is so annoying! You've been doing that for ages.... give it up!

P.S. learn to admit you're wrong sometimes and try not to always have the last word... one day you'll meet someone that'll rearrange your face.

Geez Randy, everybody spends most of their time kissing your ass, it's about time someone started kissing mine for a bit!!


Anyhow, I've been away from the office all afternoon, but it certainly sounds like I've missed some interesting material...woohoo!!


Anyhow, on the in-car video; John's generally not a fan of it; he'll allow certain people to do it, based simply on his opinion of their maturity. Guys tend to get video cameras in their car, and then attempt to pull off one hot lap after another...

Unless you're getting video of both in-car and shots of your hands / feet, it's not a lot of good as a teaching aid. The in-car shots out the windshield don't show a lot (braking, etc). The in-car video is almost a better aid for the driver you're following....

Other than the apparently juicy stuff which must have been deleted, I can't find anything else to say about this....damn, I really must have missed something.

The import vs domestic thing is a little dull however; a lot of guys don't like to hear that their $70,000 M3 gets lapped easily by a $20,000 Mustang... It is very much a battle-axe vs scalpel type approach, and it simply depends on the track(s) involved. The driver is a big part of it as well; most of the guys who can afford E46 M3s really don't know how to drive them well, or are afraid to push them hard. This pretty much holds true for all the E46 M3s at the track this past weekend.

The problem with a number of drivers (BMW, Ferrari, Porsche) is the notion that because they drive a fast car, they're automatically a fast driver. On the track, a funny thing occurs (Randy has probably seen this before). When you come barreling up behind someone, the driver often *decides* if he thinks you're worthy of passing him. I get this all the time from a couple of guys in the A group with E46 M3s, and some of the guys with M5s.

I can imagine the Mustang guys (particularly at a BMW event) get this treatment as well; for some reason, the right signal light just doesn't seem to work....

It's much more fun being the fastest car on the track (especially with nearly the least HP). Eventually, everyone has to give you the passing signal....


Pat

EMPOWERD
04-25-2002, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by ROB89M3

Oh ya..why do you consistently "spy" on the message boards instead of actually logging on?? hahaha

You sneak!!*th-up*


Rob,

Are you on GLUE?... what the hell are you talking about? I always log on as myself and never have a reason to hide. Dude, you should seriously shut up while you're still (marginally) ahead.*drunk*





Pat,

I never kiss anyone's ass. That's a fact. Sorry to burst your bubble.;)

Spartiatis
04-25-2002, 02:54 AM
Cant we all just get along*wave* *wave* *wave* *wave*

EMPOWERD
04-25-2002, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by Spartiatis
Cant we all just get along*wave* *wave* *wave* *wave*



NOPE!!! (thank God);)

GR8 Ride
04-25-2002, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by empowerd




Pat,

I never kiss anyone's ass. That's a fact. Sorry to burst your bubble.;)

Read again. I said everybody here ends up kissing YOUR ass....not the other way around.

I'm just saying it's about time someone started kissing my ass instead of yours :moon:


On a side note, this thread has been good for Rob in one sense. Instead of us hassling him further about his near *offs* at Mosport, it's turned into a domestic vs import, who can kiss the most ass kinda thread....

Rob must be happy about that....otherwise we'd be focussing on his driving abilities....(or lack thereof).


Pat

EMPOWERD
04-25-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Bad-Karma


Read again. I said everybody here ends up kissing YOUR ass....not the other way around.

I'm just saying it's about time someone started kissing my ass instead of yours :moon:



Sorry Pat, you're absolutely right... I misread that sentence, but either way I didn't offend anyone... just stated a point. We're all good!*smoke*

EMPOWERD
04-25-2002, 02:13 PM
I'm glad you noticed the sarcasm Rob.... you're so smart!:idea:

DUH!!! *drunk*

(not the sharpest knife in the drawer...)

M3ntal Kev
04-25-2002, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by empowerd

(not the sharpest knife in the drawer...)

Now that's funny. Man this thread has degraded a fair amount.

Anyone coming out to the June BMWCC School? (That's a little related, I think)

330DTM
04-25-2002, 08:44 PM
Haha, Randy is too funny!

I'm laughing my socks off :P

Go Randy GO!

KIRASIR
04-25-2002, 10:24 PM
Is this the one on may 31st? I think I am going to sign up for that one. It's time I get some track experience.

SL

Originally posted by M3ntal Kev


Now that's funny. Man this thread has degraded a fair amount.

Anyone coming out to the June BMWCC School? (That's a little related, I think)