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View Full Version : m42 itb build V2.0


BMe30
03-13-2012, 06:24 PM
well my new bigger itb's came in today :)

gsx-r 750 42mm *rockout*

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0182.jpg

now this set up is a little different.. unlike the bmw k1100 itbs i had or the older 2000-2003 gsx-r itbs that have i casting per itb... these are 2 castings.. 1 casting for 2 intakes. kinda like the webber set up


here is a pic showing how close the center to center line up to the upper/lower intake manifold gasket

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0183.jpg


this will work out great.. i can seperate them into two units and weld short runners to this....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/bmw/DSCF0861-1.jpg

my modified upper intake... you can see how this will work :)

a lot of prep work ahead... i will keep you posted as i make progress... slow progress lol

defaultName
03-13-2012, 06:54 PM
Please hurry up and get this finished so I can copy you. :D

cormier
03-13-2012, 07:37 PM
How did you do it last time -- did you have to separate it into 2?

Very nice lining it up did you know it would be that close?

BMe30
03-13-2012, 10:14 PM
How did you do it last time -- did you have to separate it into 2?

Very nice lining it up did you know it would be that close?

last time was pretty funny what i did... http://www.maxbimmer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145203


i thought it would be a lot worse... from the specs that i could find online for the 00-03 itb said 80mm center to center... i assumed the same for these 07 750 itbs.. but these are about 72mm center to center... believe me this will make things a lot easier!

cormier
03-13-2012, 10:44 PM
Lol very ... custom :p I love it! I remember you talking about that at a meet but i hadnt seen those pix until now

This one should be a bit easier on you for sure :p

BMe30
03-19-2012, 07:11 PM
so i spent a little time on the itbs today after work. so i removed the vac lines, the injectors, and the secondary butterflies that were controled via electric motor.

i was able to separate them and this is how they line up.....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0193.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0192.jpg

it looks like i can just get some silicone tube and mount them just like that.. but im going to look for some aluminum tube with a 45deg to weld to the manifold so the itbs will sit like this but lower and closer to the lower intake manifold...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/bmw/DSCF0869.jpg



now since there is quite a gap between the 2 units im going to make make a bracket to keep them spaced correctly. also you will see that i will have to fab an extention between the 2 units so the butterflies will be as one again.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0194.jpg



well thats all for now...

next im going to take some measurements.. find some pipe... make that plate.. and jb weld all the exposed holes.

e30tOny
03-19-2012, 08:16 PM
WICKED*th-up*
.....subscriebed!......

mr ilia
03-19-2012, 10:51 PM
Nice to see you making v 2.0!
You inspired me to do ITBs, i read your thread about v 1.0 build up so many times.

I will be however, using BMW k1200rs TBs. They are 38mm...as somewhere the Internet made me to believe the m42 intake tube diameter were 38mm as well....not a big deal.

I will continue working on my setup after the end of this semester.

BMe30
03-20-2012, 05:57 AM
Nice to see you making v 2.0!
You inspired me to do ITBs, i read your thread about v 1.0 build up so many times.

I will be however, using BMW k1200rs TBs. They are 38mm...as somewhere the Internet made me to believe the m42 intake tube diameter were 38mm as well....not a big deal.

I will continue working on my setup after the end of this semester.

You are 100% right about those numbers. I was going to use the k1200. But i have some additional plans for the motor and the bigger opening will help.

Good luck on your build! If you have any questions feel free to ask. There were a lot of little things that i didnt post during that build

mr ilia
03-21-2012, 09:04 AM
You are 100% right about those numbers. I was going to use the k1200. But i have some additional plans for the motor and the bigger opening will help.

Good luck on your build! If you have any questions feel free to ask. There were a lot of little things that i didnt post during that build
thanks,

i will have questions about vac lines hook up, but I will ask them during my build in a month or so.

Bullet Ride
03-21-2012, 09:30 AM
You should of got the throttle bodies you recommended to me. Then you could get perfect spacing...

For everyone's reference this is a great DIY on how to do an ITB conversion
http://www.carforums.co.za/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7713

Looking forward to hearing your car rip at auto-x this year Bruno!

BMe30
03-21-2012, 10:25 AM
You should of got the throttle bodies you recommended to me. Then you could get perfect spacing...

For everyone's reference this is a great DIY on how to do an ITB conversion
http://www.carforums.co.za/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7713

Looking forward to hearing your car rip at auto-x this year Bruno!

I've seen that thread and also looked at this one http://www.everettmail.co.uk/mods/mods_throttle_bodies_2.htm

With my build i wanted to keep my stock lower intake manifold with injectors. The m42 lower intake manifold isnt as easy to shorten to the point of equal spacing and still keep the same mounting points for the fuel injectors. Even if i wanted to use the injectors from the bike itbs i would have to customize the fuel rail there too. I didnt want to go to the point of a custom manifold and fuel rail. I wanted to make this as simple as possible. Besides... the length that this will have will benifit my torque curve as seen in http://forums.neons.org/viewtopic.php?t=294784

At the end of the day its still itb *rockout*

Bullet Ride
03-22-2012, 10:58 PM
I just came across this...

http://www.compsystems.com.au/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/BMW_M20_ITB_Kit_4f02755e8a8c4.jpg

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/images/1310650820313.jpg

http://www.compsystems.com.au/catalogue/engine-control/jenvey-throttle-bodies/131-bmw-itb-kits/bmw-m20-itb-kit.html?vmcchk=1

However I will build mine for a fraction of that that costs.

BMe30
03-23-2012, 06:30 AM
Very nice! The price is just about the same as these for the m42

http://www.bimmerwerkz.com/forum/attachments/3-series-e36/29590d1294794494-m42-turbo-build-dbilas-m42-itb.jpg

Diy most of the time will always be for a fraction of the cost when it comes to this type of build. Motorcycle itbs are pretty cheap on ebay. Adapting them to your motor... Still a good deal. Where the costs come high is tuning. If you want open stacks you need a stand alone. But i know you already knew that.... That last bit was for those who may have not known *th-up*

Bullet Ride
03-23-2012, 08:20 AM
Even then it's not too expensive to go stand alone these days. You can buy a megasquirt PNP unit with basemaps pre-loaded now for $800 (for the M20). That's pretty killer for a turn key solution. And if you're more industrious you can always build your own unit for about half of that.

But I know you already knew that.... That last bit was for those who may have not known ;)

Luckily for you you only have 4 cylinders (if you can call that being lucky? *shiner*) I'll have to buy 2 sets of 4 just to get 6 unless I can find a parallel twin that uses separable throttle bodies.

BMe30
03-23-2012, 08:45 AM
Hahahahahahaha this is too funny :)

I cant wait till both of our motors are done. But my internals are planned for next year. When they are both done i really want to see by how much you will beat me heads up.... Yes i know you will have the more powerful set up *rockout*

Bullet Ride
03-23-2012, 09:20 AM
With both our cars turning 7000+rpm + ITBs... the sound alone will be *mw*

BMe30
03-23-2012, 09:36 AM
With both our cars turning 7000+rpm + ITBs... the sound alone will be *mw*

*rockout*

SamE30e
03-23-2012, 01:18 PM
With both our cars turning 7000+rpm + ITBs... the sound alone will be *mw*

Upgrade that valvetrain neowwww! *th-up*

Bullet Ride
03-23-2012, 02:16 PM
Upgrade that valvetrain neowwww! *th-up*

I'll upgrade the springs when I want to do 8000rpm *th-up*.

BMe30
03-23-2012, 02:25 PM
Upgrade that valvetrain neowwww! *th-up*

Im on a budget timeline :(

mr ilia
04-01-2012, 12:17 AM
Any update on the build?

BMe30
04-01-2012, 11:49 AM
Nothing really... Just been thinking about some vac ports... Going to pick up a catch can. This time around i wont have an icv. I did pick up some more jb weld and an aluminum "L" channel for spacing the itb. There are still a few more little things to pick up but waiting on one little thing that needs to be done with the adapter.

I hope to have some progress this week and or next weekend

bmwm5lover
04-01-2012, 03:36 PM
So, can someone explain to me the purpose of this? How much power are you hoping to gain?

BMe30
04-01-2012, 03:56 PM
So, can someone explain to me the purpose of this? How much power are you hoping to gain?

Easy... More air flow into the motor= more power... Keep in mind the motor needs to be tuned. With the internals stock And with what i have been reading should see close to 15hp or more. When the internals are upgraded... Longer duration cam and high comp pistons it will all come together. In the end i should be just under 200hp n/a

Just look at the s14, s42 ... Itbs, heavy cam and high compression pistons.. Among other goodies. Hell even if i can get 180hp ill be happy... Its all i really need for what the car is used for :)

DIY
04-01-2012, 04:40 PM
So, can someone explain to me the purpose of this? How much power are you hoping to gain?

ITB's are usually a really good way to increase the response of the engine as well as it helps smooth out the roughness of a high lift cam... although the horsepower doesnt seem like such a huge gain/$, the response is what your after

bmwm5lover
04-01-2012, 07:10 PM
thanks for the clarification. Seems like a lot of work for very little performance improvement, but I can understand doing something unique though as the motive behind it. Personally I would just drop in a bigger motor or turbo.

Good luck with it though. NA power is my preference (if $ feasible) vs FI, but FI can be cheap power.

BMe30
04-03-2012, 05:16 PM
thanks for the clarification. Seems like a lot of work for very little performance improvement, but I can understand doing something unique though as the motive behind it. Personally I would just drop in a bigger motor or turbo.

Good luck with it though. NA power is my preference (if $ feasible) vs FI, but FI can be cheap power.

you are 100% right

dont forget that with swaps and turbo/sc builds in most cases the diff is upgraded for top end speed. i'm keeping my gear ratio.. im not looking to build a fast car.. im trying to build a quick car. My plan is to keep my 4.10 gears with the added power/tq. this will help with my autox and small/medium sized tracks times. it will be a fun car to drive... but not a fast one.

lets look at some rough costs for FI upgrades

DASC for the m42 give or take $3000 new 2k used aprox 200hp
a turbo build on the low end with used parts and standalone/piggyback $1500-$2000.. high end new parts 4k with 200-220hp @ 7psi

if i were to go low end just itb and standalone (pnp megasquirt) approx $1200 with a gain of maybe 20hp

add the cam $400
11 or 12:1 pistons $800
engine rebuild $1500 give or take

give or take total $3900 and i believe close to 200hp

these are all rough numbers i have been seeing from my research over the past year wondering what type of build i wanted to do...

goldhawk
04-03-2012, 05:58 PM
So, can someone explain to me the purpose of this? How much power are you hoping to gain?

Because, race car.

BMe30
04-16-2012, 09:46 AM
Little update...

Ordered air filters from webmoto in the UK. They should be here soon and ill post some pics. There wont be much progress till june. Im waiting for a buddy of mine to do some minor machining to my upper intake manifold adapter to match the O.D. Of the tb's for better fit with the silicone tubes. Once that is done i will be able to get everything set up and ready for install and tuning :)

SamE30e
04-16-2012, 10:14 PM
Sorry Bruno, you lost me at JB weld.

Downing Atlanta kit would have been a great idea, and probably cost the same.

Bullet Ride
04-16-2012, 11:05 PM
Sorry Bruno, you lost me at JB weld.

Downing Atlanta kit would have been a great idea, and probably cost the same.

Ok fine, he'll use devcon...

And isn't the Downing/Atlanta kit close to $4k new?
I'd imagine you might be able to find a used one for $1500-$2000k but they don't pop up for sale very often.

BMe30
04-17-2012, 08:26 AM
Ok fine, he'll use devcon...

And isn't the Downing/Atlanta kit close to $4k new?
I'd imagine you might be able to find a used one for $1500-$2000k but they don't pop up for sale very often.

Im actually using QuikAluminum its the stick where you cut off what you need and knead then apply. Ive read a lot of great reviews and applications similar to my needs.

Bullet Ride
04-17-2012, 09:19 AM
I was just kidding around. I don't really care what you use. If it works... it works!

BMe30
04-17-2012, 10:28 AM
I was just kidding around. I don't really care what you use. If it works... it works!

All good! I didnt take any of it the wrong way at all. *th-up*

Im pretty easy going

BMe30
04-17-2012, 09:41 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0233.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0234.jpg

Wemoto filters


slowly getting there :)

SamE30e
04-18-2012, 09:33 AM
Ok fine, he'll use devcon...

And isn't the Downing/Atlanta kit close to $4k new?
I'd imagine you might be able to find a used one for $1500-$2000k but they don't pop up for sale very often.


Aren't you in engineering?

Bruno, mock it up, get someone to weld it. There's plenty of shops that will do it for you.

BMe30
04-18-2012, 10:03 AM
Im not too familiar with aluminum welding.. Would the weld warp or distort some of the tb housing? Does aluminum welding generate more or less heat as steel welds?

SamE30e
04-18-2012, 10:19 AM
Im not too familiar with aluminum welding.. Would the weld warp or distort some of the tb housing? Does aluminum welding generate more or less heat as steel welds?

Well, they don't look like they are that lined up anyways. So it wouldn't affect performance even if they did. But no, it shouldn't. Aluminums general melting point is 660 degrees celcius, Steel is around 1400-1500 celcius depending on the type.

I would get a piece of tube welded onto the intake mani side. Or, get a flange fabbed up to fit the itb's properly.

BMe30
04-18-2012, 10:31 AM
Oh about that... Im getting a friend of mine who works at a machine shop to machine the upper intake adapter to match the O.D. Of the tb and make it level. I have to do it this way to bolt the upper intake to the lower intake... The itbs interfere with the nuts to tighten. I had the same issue in V1.0

The quick aluminum is to fill the holes exposed by the injectors removed from the itbs and then add nipples for the catch can vac lines

Bullet Ride
04-18-2012, 11:03 AM
Aren't you in engineering?

I'm going to ignore this because it seems as though you were under the impression that Bruno was going to use JB Weld to join the TB to the upper manifold. As he just mentioned, he's using the epoxy to do something like this...

http://www.sportingfords.com/tbguide/20.jpg

BMe30
04-18-2012, 11:07 AM
Is that yours? :)

Bullet Ride
04-18-2012, 11:09 AM
Is that yours? :)

No lol, I pulled it from the link I posted on pg1.
I'm going to be using the motor I pull when I swap in my stroker to do the ITB build.

BMe30
04-18-2012, 11:20 AM
No lol, I pulled it from the link I posted on pg1.
I'm going to be using the motor I pull when I swap in my stroker to do the ITB build.

Awesome!

SamE30e
04-18-2012, 08:22 PM
I stand by my statement. I would get a manifold fab'd up. Might see a bit better gain.

defaultName
04-19-2012, 06:45 AM
Have you looked into using Euro S50 ITB's on an M42?

I'm assuming it would be a cost/availability issue to go this route but it could be easier.

Just wondering if you know anything about this set up?

BMe30
04-19-2012, 06:59 AM
I stand by my statement. I would get a manifold fab'd up. Might see a bit better gain.

There is a chance i may have to... But ill know for sure when i start putting it together.. But i still want to kerp long runneres to help with my tq curve

Default name... I have heard and seen that on some threads.... They are very costly.... Imo motorcycle itbs are cost effective. The first set of itbs shipped to my door was around $120 i think... These $180... Those euro bmw ones when i was looking well above $400

BMe30
06-03-2012, 03:44 PM
well it took some time but a friend of mine was able to squeeze in some time for me at his shop to do this...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/bmw/IMG_0279.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/bmw/IMG_0281.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/bmw/IMG_0282.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/bmw/IMG_0284.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/bmw/IMG_0286.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/bmw/IMG_0287.jpg

next up.. to make the two units one again.. fill the holes...

been a little busy with some other things so the next few steps may be a while... but not as long as this update was.

mr ilia
06-03-2012, 07:37 PM
Any pics as how the TB connection looks inside af the joint?

BMe30
06-03-2012, 07:41 PM
Any pics as how the TB connection looks inside af the joint?

Not yet i still have to knife edge the manifold.. When i start that youll see the pics

cormier
06-05-2012, 09:13 PM
Nice work at the shop -- looking great dude!

BMe30
06-05-2012, 10:40 PM
Thanks but all i did was look at my buddy program the machine and look in awwwe lol

Im pretty stoked about this... There are a few changes from the initial plan due to more important items happening in my life... But she will breathe for bimmercruise!

Bullet Ride
06-06-2012, 03:33 PM
... But she will breathe for bimmercruise!

*rockout*

Any plans on adding an adjustable fuel pressure regulator and a WB O2 sensor to help tweak the fueling in the mean time? Eventually you will need to go standalone though...

BMe30
06-06-2012, 07:24 PM
well... not sure if i need a fpr... i was told it will be fine along with the stock injectors.

Bullet Ride
06-06-2012, 07:31 PM
well... not sure if i need a fpr... i was told it will be fine along with the stock injectors.

Maybe, but I'd still consider installing a WB O2 though so you can see how the DME adjusts and keep an eye on things.

BMe30
06-06-2012, 07:36 PM
*th-up*

help me install it?

Bullet Ride
06-06-2012, 11:06 PM
*th-up*

help me install it?

I can give you a hand if you'd like. It's pretty straight forward. I installed one in mine before I started fooling around with the M30 AFM and 19lb injectors. And two years later it's going to come in handy for tuning my 2.8L stroker which will be running stand alone *th-up*

BMe30
06-22-2012, 07:56 PM
ok so after work i started to knife edge the modified upper intake

here it is before i started
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0350.jpg

after a grinding session
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0352.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0351.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0353.jpg

then i started on spacing the itbs

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0354.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0356.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0357.jpg


and here is what it looks like through the opening

engine to filter
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0359.jpg

filter to engine
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0358.jpg

more to come!

BMe30
06-25-2012, 10:13 AM
Little update...

So i made the tab extension to connect the butterfly rods together. I used rivets and it works... But i did notice some play. So i brought the unit into work today to see if the welder can fix it. Ill pOst some pics when i can...

After this im going to work on plugging the holes and setting up for the secondary vac log for the valve cover vent. Later on that will have an oil catch can. After thats done going to work on the fiberglass plenum :)

Woofer
06-25-2012, 12:36 PM
Sweet work Bruno!

Can't wait to hear it.
Still want a rematch LOL

BMe30
06-25-2012, 12:43 PM
Before or after itbs :p

BMe30
06-26-2012, 09:03 PM
here are some pics of the itb's longer throttle tab

at first i used rivets... but noticed there was some play when opening the butterflies... so i got it welded.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0361.jpg

then i cut some SS pipe for spacers where the itbs bolt together.. also you can see where i used the rivets and where it was welded

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0362.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0363.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0364.jpg

a little fine tune and alll the butterflies have the same gap at idle and same position at WOT.

next step... plug those holes!

Bullet Ride
06-27-2012, 09:28 AM
I was thinking about plugging those holes the other day, I figured it'd be easy to find NPT thread with a drill diameter closest to the size of the hole (drill them out slightly larger if necessary). Then just tap them and put pipe plugs, you could also install barbed fittings if you wanted to use them to pull vacuum.

BMe30
06-27-2012, 09:57 AM
I was looking at those barbed fittings yesterday they will work perfect. I just have to double check the opening in the itbs and the id of the valve cover vent...

BMe30
07-01-2012, 12:39 PM
Ok here is what i was able to do this morning...

Used that quck aluminum stuff... And wow! So far its looking like a great product... Here are some pics...
http://img.tapatalk.com/266c5714-7b57-26d0.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/266c5714-7b69-972f.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/266c5714-7b7c-6bd3.jpg

So those where all the holes i needed plugged.. I will sand smooth the inside of the itbs later...

The remaining 4 holes i used a barbed insert for the vac line for the valve cover line... Later in ill get an oil catch can to put in between

http://img.tapatalk.com/266c5714-7c1a-721f.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/266c5714-7c2b-e0a9.jpg

Next i started to wire the tps to see how the itb tps reads...

http://img.tapatalk.com/266c5714-7c68-f2ee.jpg

I hooked it up and manually checked the readings... The stock tps readt from idle .05v to wot 4.66v.... The itb tps at idle reads 2.3v to wot 4.70v. I tried adjusting the tps but nowhere near the range as stock... And to modify the stock tps to the itbs looks near impossible... Im going to continue with the rest of the build to get it running.. And see what diff that range makes.

qwerte
07-01-2012, 05:39 PM
Very cool project, the ingenuity that is going into this is well above my skills or knowledge but it is interesting to watch it come together.*th-up*

BMe30
07-01-2012, 06:19 PM
Very cool project, the ingenuity that is going into this is well above my skills or knowledge but it is interesting to watch it come together.*th-up*

Thanks :)

Its all from trial and error.. Hrs of research on the net.. And asking questions.

Most of the time im just praying its going to work better than v1 lol

mr ilia
07-02-2012, 12:43 AM
What are these fittings going to be used for?

http://img.tapatalk.com/266c5714-7c1a-721f.jpg

BMe30
07-02-2012, 08:32 AM
^^^^^ Those fittings will be connected to the valve cover breather line. All 4 of those fittings will be connected as a log line.

I should be at that point some time this week.... Along with my fiberglass plenum build...

BMe30
08-01-2012, 01:00 PM
So i figured id do a little work on the car today..

Picked up some vac line.. Connectors.. 90deg elbow.. Going to fab up another bracket for my afm.. And going to start working on the pattern for the fg plenum

Here is where im at so far...
http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45dc-60ac-b142.jpg

More to follow...

BMe30
08-01-2012, 02:35 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-7626-2fc9.jpg

So this is just the mock up before i start fg the plenum... There is one clearance issue but not a big deal to fix. Right now going to line up the 90deg elbow to the bottom center of the plenum

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45bc-76d2-0a0f.jpg

That will lead to the new mounting bracket for the afm

Bullet Ride
08-01-2012, 02:43 PM
lol is this a real time build thread now? Updates for every beer opened? lol

BMe30
08-01-2012, 02:48 PM
lol i wish every beer!

worst part is after today i wont be able to work on it again for a while :S still hope to have it for bimmercruise.

btw.. good job on your build!! i read that its pulling along great!

BMe30
08-01-2012, 03:48 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45af-8782-61f8.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45af-87a7-511c.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45af-87cc-141f.jpg

Thats pretty much what its going to look like when its done...

I just need to shape the plenum a bit to clear the hood. Then start to fg it

craz azn
08-01-2012, 08:19 PM
Any reason why you aren't going for a bigger plenum? You have anything at the ends of the stacks ie trumpets?

BMe30
08-01-2012, 08:37 PM
Any reason why you aren't going for a bigger plenum? You have anything at the ends of the stacks ie trumpets?

Because i already have long runners it was recomended to have a smaller plenum.. No trumpets but i put a radius onto the ports leading to the itbs. When i remove the fg from the pattern ill show you.

mr ilia
08-07-2012, 11:15 PM
You will need to be filling the cylinders with oxygen not with vacuum.
The highest concentration of oxygen is in the middle inside the plenum, near walls it is mostly vacuum or less oxygen. Hence reason for trumpets, pull the air from the middle section of inside the plenum walls.

DIY
08-07-2012, 11:34 PM
I would try to keep that radius you added to the runners to a minimum. From what I've read and been told, you want your runners to end abruptly, this will give a stronger pressure wave resonating through the tube, and should add to the ram effect :)

BMe30
08-10-2012, 11:58 AM
Rudy, illa, diy, you guys all right.. When i replied i forgot about that little detail about the trumpets and the center air volume... Im currently working on another plenum design that is bigger and will have the trumpets as well.

I hope to have it done this weekend along with the tps working

voluted
08-10-2012, 01:23 PM
Looking forward to it!

BMe30
08-16-2012, 08:29 PM
Ok so i didnt have time on the weekend to get some stuff done... But i did some tonight..

Here is that new plenum design i made at work... Note that they are 2 parts and will fg tomorrow night.

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45ad-8ef5-64b5.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45ad-8f20-b2a1.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45ad-8f31-16cf.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45ad-8f44-7483.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45ad-8f55-d0ac.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45ad-8f67-1482.jpg

Other bit of news... I ordered the prev gen tps gsxr 750 itbs it came in today, picking it up tomorrow. Im pretty sure i can get it all put together and running by the end if the weekend...

Oh and yes im going to make some trumpets for the plenum ;)


Oh... And my little one will be here in december :D

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45ad-9044-0ba4.jpg

BMe30
08-17-2012, 06:20 PM
Started on the fiberglass work... Tomorrow morning ill take the pattern apart and get it ready to install the trumpets that im glassing as well... But i need more resin :s

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45f1-c32a-1267.jpg

Sunday will be a bust for me going to the CNE but i should have most things ready by the end of the week.... Just in time for bimmercruise... Fingers crossed X-)

defaultName
08-17-2012, 07:27 PM
Oh... And my little one will be here in december :D

http://img.tapatalk.com/cfdb45ad-9044-0ba4.jpg

Congrats!

DIY
08-19-2012, 12:47 AM
since your in mississauga ( and need resin) hit up composites canada, they got everything you need to do the fiberglass work and a wealth of knoledge... I wouldnt get my stuff anywhere else. Bring 1 of your molds in if you want I'm sure they can offer some tips.. Lookin awesome!

BMe30
08-19-2012, 07:33 AM
Diy... Ill check that place out but i just headed to CT to get more resin... About the pattern... On the ends i used a 2degree draft angle.... I really should have gone with min 5deg... And even though i used 3 coats of silicone on the pattern, mold paste/ wax may have been better around the exposed endgrain areas on the pattern....

Another little wall to climb is for the inner trumpets...i was able to fg them but not that much room in there... I need to fg a bend to get them where i want them in the plenum.

I really hate to say it but i dont think it will be ready for bimmercruise :(

If by some miracle i do get it all done in time... No time to tune it :(

But im still going to try...

richie_s999
08-19-2012, 08:09 AM
Congrats on the little one, been waiting to see the ultra sound pic, its a life changer but only for the better!!

the round pieces of would your using for the mold, did you make then about a 1/4 inch smaller then they need to be to account for it being an external mold

I hope your coming to bimmercruise even without the car being done, we could use some extra help for the autoX!!

BMe30
08-19-2012, 09:14 AM
^^^ thanks :D

Yeah ill be there itb's or not.

Here are some pics as of this morning after the second layer of fg

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-e61d-6326.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-e62c-d3e2.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-e63b-3c12.jpg

Here is the fg trumpet.. Trim needed of course

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-e66b-e226.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-e678-b8e8.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-e687-99dc.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-e694-7d06.jpg

Yup.. They fit ;)

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-e6b7-e0c7.jpg

cormier
08-19-2012, 10:19 AM
Hey congrats on the work and the little one comin along!

Lookin good

BMe30
08-25-2012, 03:43 PM
Here is where im at as of now...

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-2a13-9355.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/63e655e4-2a26-a78b.jpg

Have all the elbows made but not finished... Still have a lot of trimming to do and more fg work... I might try a little during the week. But more than likely next weekend.

I was able to get the bmw tps to work.. But the range in narrow... Does it matter if im tuning via piggyback for afr and timing?

mr ilia
08-26-2012, 11:04 PM
Wow, those trumpets look great. I will need 4 of them for my current ITB project.

Sorry for the long post, I did not meant to.

This is where I'm on my ITB project.

I need to figure out throttle linkage , the middle connector for the both ITB pairs
I need trumpets and the piece to mount my BMW throttles to the S14 plenum.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7eiR25sc_U0/T582nty3JTI/AAAAAAAAAFg/YYqL00UccZE/s720/IMG_20120430_205704.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-GHl0HmyMQzE/T582sp8dYAI/AAAAAAAAAFo/CY8Ilfamius/s720/IMG_20120430_205718.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-hKaw9qRTx-I/T582c634Q3I/AAAAAAAAAFQ/W72Pdg3W4dI/s720/IMG_20120430_205946.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GqK-jmhTgGA/UDrx1DWFwAI/AAAAAAAAARU/YcsBYb4TXNs/s1024/IMG_5008.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-xvwmFzWuOpU/UDrx3HYmg0I/AAAAAAAAARc/eNe2-YwPqYA/s640/IMG_5010.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AmJzzFewOYI/UDrxxUFG94I/AAAAAAAAARM/b8Vj2NVaFIc/s912/IMG_5011.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-xdWM9o0g_h4/T4tk_JwAOJI/AAAAAAAAACc/0Wu-MBCYDhA/s912/mani%2520back.JPG
If I only knew how to use my brand new Moomaster arc/tig welder.

BMe30
08-27-2012, 06:33 AM
Did you test fit the itbs in the car with the s14 plenum? Just for clearance issues...
I can make some for you.

cormier
08-27-2012, 08:58 AM
Hey congrats on the trophy eh dude!

BMe30
08-27-2012, 09:01 AM
Hey congrats on the trophy eh dude!

Thanks! Hey by any chance did you see my car during the lapping events... Man it was sooooo much fun!

cormier
08-27-2012, 09:04 AM
It was crowded like crazy during the lapping so you blended in :p

Looked like fun though!

BMe30
08-27-2012, 09:05 AM
Lol :)

mr ilia
08-27-2012, 12:29 PM
Did you test fit the itbs in the car with the s14 plenum? Just for clearance issues...
I can make some for you.

I tried earlier this yesr and it did not..it wad only a mock up with the original lower intake on, but it looked like the brake booster will in the way to clear the intake....
I have yet to figure out how to get around it. May be in the winder, when my e30 is parked and I can just take off the inteake many completely and try fitting things better.

BMe30
08-27-2012, 01:43 PM
All you need to remove is the tb and the upper intake manifold.. Just fit the itb to the lower intake for the time being. i see that you recessed the itbs into the lower intake manifold.. But that 1/2" or so wont be that much of a diff to get things figured out for spacing and a plenum placement/ design. And it will save you a little time and stress if you dont have another car to drive.

Im already thinking of another design...

BMe30
09-01-2012, 12:22 PM
so i did some touble shooting with my TPS issue...at first i thought i couldnt use the TPS that came with the itbs.. for 1 there was 2 tps one for the upper range and one for the lower range.. as i found from testing with the volt meter.

so began me buying 2 other tps that didnt end up working out.. and just as i was about to try something crazy.. i decided to try one of the gsx-r tps on its own not attatched to the itbs.... it showed full range.. but why... then looking at the tps further the way its designed to accept the butterfly rod uses tabs and not a slot.. so i was able to reposition the tps using the different tabs... tried it on the car.. and i have full range from .66v-4.06v same as stock tps. now i just have to find a way to secure it and adjust it if an when needed...

then i'll be back on the FG work... still shooting for the next autoslalom event to have it ready

BMe30
09-07-2012, 09:07 PM
Im thinking about setting the trumpets in this configuration... Thoughts?

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/08/gysasuvu.jpg

defaultName
09-08-2012, 08:13 AM
still shooting for the next autoslalom event to have it ready

If this is ready then I MUST come out to see it!

BMe30
09-09-2012, 08:59 PM
I had a little time this afternoon to start fg the trumpets inside the plenum...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/10/a3uvy7a2.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/10/ypu4a3un.jpg

Ive been pretty busy as of late with work... But got a lot of work done today... If i can get an evening in before saturday i'll be sitting pretty to finish saturday ( if i dont have to work) and will have it there for the autoslalom... Not tuned though. Also if im not working :s

BMe30
09-11-2012, 05:24 PM
We today is my 2yr anniversary... So what did i do as soon as i got home from work...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/12/uda8eme8.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/12/ena4ygud.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/12/aqu6asy5.jpg

BMe30
09-11-2012, 05:29 PM
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/12/e9ema8yr.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/12/a4uja8u7.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/12/adesu9ur.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/12/e4epytaj.jpg

And i sanded down those fittings in the itbs...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/12/se5ehe5u.jpg

Wont have time tomorrow to work on it.. I hope on thurs night to start joining the 2 halves and clean up some little things that need sanding on the itbs. And set up the vac lines. Friday double check everything.. Saturday morning.. Install :)

mr ilia
09-12-2012, 12:19 AM
Please fix pictures, as I'm anxious to see what you did. :)

BMe30
09-12-2012, 11:11 AM
Please fix pictures, as I'm anxious to see what you did. :)

I checked on a few computers, iphone and ipad.. The pics are there. Is anyone else having issues with the pics?

Bullet Ride
09-12-2012, 11:12 AM
I checked on a few computers, iphone and ipad.. The pics are there. Is anyone else having issues with the pics?

No problems here.

voluted
09-12-2012, 05:51 PM
I had an issue yesterday but it's fine now. Looks like a fun project and I can't wait for sound clips!

BMe30
09-12-2012, 06:26 PM
I had a little time tonight to apply first layer of fg to join the 2 parts...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/13/5azuse3y.jpg

In my haste i may have not put enough hardener...

Here is my tps set up... Japan to german...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/13/emy6a7e4.jpg

Closed itb...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/13/u5uvane4.jpg

Wot itb...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/13/qe9yry9u.jpg

Little off on the voltage from stock.. But i can adjust later..

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/13/vuvyqe5y.jpg

:)

BMe30
09-14-2012, 07:24 PM
Well i trimmed the sides and started to fg them...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/15/e3ydyha7.jpg

Its a little cool out so i brought out my old school heater to help things out a bit..

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/15/atyhy8yb.jpg

I'm going to do a little more tonight... It should be ready to start installing tomorrow morning if there are no little holes that i may have missed

BMe30
09-14-2012, 11:04 PM
Well.... I couldnt wait till saturday... Got everything hooked up... Tps, vac lines, afm mount... Just one little problem.... The brake booster line....

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/15/egyzumyv.jpg

Im going to try and tuck it somehow..

Getting pretty tired though... Maybe ill start fresh in the morning...

defaultName
09-15-2012, 07:44 AM
You are sooooo close!

Looking forward to seeing this tomorrow!

Bullet Ride
09-15-2012, 07:50 AM
Git 'er dun!

BMe30
09-15-2012, 09:02 AM
I was able to tuck the brake booster line lastnight... Hooked everything up and started her up.
Little rough so i adjusted the idle trim. I looked at the afr and showed 10:1.... Odd.
I ended up taking it for a boot to the gas station.. Put some gas in and checked the tps... Was showing 5v the whole time...
I did shorten the tps wires before i wrapped them. But i have a feeling somethings a miss.
I didnt build this to run the icv... I think im going to fab it in later.

Going to check it all out now...

BMe30
09-15-2012, 12:42 PM
Yeah when i taped the tps i broke the connection...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/16/7a8ubyse.jpg

So i fixed that with a little solder.. Taped it.. Reinstalled and got a proper voltage reading.

Took it for a drive.. Not bad at all.. Afr seems to be the same as before... Idles around 14.7 but jumps to 15 and low as 14.2...

Drivability its really touchy to ease into gears..

The fg air box rubs a bit on the hood ribbing and the brake booster...

This set up it a lot smoother than the one i did last year with the abs plastic parts.. Also it dosent fall off past 4500rpm as before... But you can feel that there isnt much there.

See you at the autoslalom :)

BMe30
09-16-2012, 06:23 AM
So i was out last night drove to cambridge... Car did good on the hwy and the city.. On the way back home i wanted to check out the afr readings a bit more... As stated before the afr wasnt too bad for normal driving not hitting WOT. On the hwy i hit WOT and as soon as i did afr reads 16+:1

Yeah... She needs some fuel tuning....

BMe30
09-16-2012, 06:50 PM
Today was an interesting day at the autoslalom... Couldnt go WOT bc i lean right out. But did really well without using WOT. Was still able to hit high revs without leaning out.. Stayed in second gear the whole time..

I must say with that limitation of no WOT made for a smooth lap... Good learning tool.

But i think i had enough learning for one day.... Time to tune the beast!

BMe30
09-19-2012, 09:57 PM
Well i need to mod a few things before i get this thing tuned.

1st will be to mod the fg plenum so it wont rub on the hood, the ps resevoir, and the brake booster.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/20/te4ypu2a.jpg

2nd i have to install the icv... So i found this and saved me a lot of fab time...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/20/ame2urez.jpg

Here are some install pics...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/20/zamu7apa.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/20/e7y3y3y2.jpg

mr ilia
09-20-2012, 04:32 PM
Where did you get this from?



2nd i have to install the icv... So i found this and saved me a lot of fab time...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/20/ame2urez.jpg

BMe30
09-20-2012, 05:51 PM
Where did you get this from?

Cdn tire... Plumbing dept :)

BMe30
09-23-2012, 05:05 PM
Did a little more work today..

Set up for the icv is done.. But i was short in one length when i got the vac lines.... Tip of the day... If you think you have enough, get more.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/24/3umupeja.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/24/ta5a6uqa.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/24/ypyqe9u6.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/24/haryvaba.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/24/u8ysaqep.jpg

I also shaved off some areas on the fg plenum that was rubbing.. And added a bit more fg to the main inlet..

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/24/u4ysybav.jpg

BMe30
09-23-2012, 06:58 PM
^^^^ all that work... Failed.

Had it all hooked up and was running so lean that the afr maxed out. Im assuming there were a few leaks around the connections.. They were tight but not that tight.. Im going to try again later if i can find the time with some pipe clamps.

The good news is that the fg plenum is much more secure and does not rub anywhere.

So i took out the icv stuff and plugged all the vac openings for it to try again later.

Did find a little vac leak from one of the old lines im using for the fpr log.. Nothing to worry too much about.. But ill get that fixed up too

BMe30
09-27-2012, 08:50 PM
Well... Had a little dyno run at RMP today...

Plugged in the tunerpro rt software and the files purchased from Bmwconnect.

Did some fuel tuning first... Car was still running lean but did a baseline pull of 65whp

Made more changes to the fuel mapping got as high as 70whp... We could not get the fuel to add no matter how high we made the adjustments...

So Rocco had some s52 injectors.. Swapped them in... And put some new plugs... Did a pass 80ish whp..

Did a little more fuel/air adjustments and some timing advancement... 99.6whp...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/28/emava5a8.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/28/7y6a7e7u.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/28/anemusa9.jpg

Thanks to Rocco rmp and bmwconnect and anyone else who helped out!

Bullet Ride
09-27-2012, 10:08 PM
Those numbers are pretty low... a healthy M42 should be making ~120whp
Does the dynapac read lower than a typical dynojet?
Either way... big improvement over the baseline... I'm looking forward to taking it for another spin.

BMe30
09-27-2012, 10:31 PM
Those numbers are pretty low... a healthy M42 should be making ~120whp
Does the dynapac read lower than a typical dynojet?

I have no clue the difference between the dynos... But still.. A 33whp gain

Yes about 120whp on a newer healthy m42..
Mine has 290000 and im sure its been worn out... Never checked the compression either. All in all car pulls a lot better... Need to do a little street tuning for casual driving.

Im sure there is a few more hp that can be squeezed out of it.. But later on

mr ilia
09-30-2012, 10:02 AM
Adding power is always good, bu your numbers do not make sense at all.

1 - With the he stock TB setup, did your engine "pull hard"?
2 - Can you feel the difference "before" and after the "tune"?
3 - What is "butt dyno" telling you, if thar is better now with the ITBs than when it was with single TB?singe?

BMe30
09-30-2012, 11:15 AM
Adding power is always good, bu your numbers do not make sense at all.

1 - With the he stock TB setup, did your engine "pull hard"?
2 - Can you feel the difference "before" and after the "tune"?
3 - What is "butt dyno" telling you, if thar is better now with the ITBs than when it was with single TB?singe?

1.stock tb with stock chip no... Stock tb with dinan clone chip pulled better
2.itbs before tune running on dinan chip pulled better but not WOT bc it would lean out. 20% - 80% throttle car drove and pulled great... After we tuned the itbs added bigger injectors and got the motor to run safe afr it pulled even better. There is still some fine tuning to be done on the tq/hp curve.

"butt dyno" feels much more responsive and pulls better than stock.

There were a couple of people who drove the car before... When they drive it again they'll feel the diff.

And as i said.. It is not fine tuned yet... I might be able to get maybe 5 more hp but what im looking to get is a better tq/hp curve.

I may have it tuned a bit more by the fall cruise or the next autoslalom event. come and see how it is...

mr ilia
09-30-2012, 02:19 PM
where you able to get the dyno chart?

BMe30
09-30-2012, 02:46 PM
Having trouble uploading it from my phone... Ill try later when i get home later this evening.

BMe30
09-30-2012, 08:38 PM
here it is..

as you can see there is still some fine tuning needed with the tq/hp curve and im sure there is a little more hp to gain as well. we only had 2hrs before i had to leave for my baby classes to get this working in a safe afr.. in that time also included trouble shooting the stock injectors.. installing the s52 injectors and new plugs.. having the engine cool between a few runs.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y233/modfire/IMG_0566.jpg

DR.ZED
10-01-2012, 10:37 AM
Interesting torque curve!

BMe30
10-01-2012, 10:56 AM
Interesting torque curve!

Yeah thats pretty funny... Lastnight i was looking at the curve and the fuel/timing map in that area... It showed a higher fuel and timing in that range. So i smoothed out the fuel as rpm rises in that area and retarded the timing a bit but kept it all within safe limits and rpm..

Loaded up that update this morning and my butt dyno noticed a better pull in that range.

SamE30e
10-03-2012, 10:47 PM
Interesting build. Kudo's for tackling it yourself.

I must say that torque curve is interesting.

BMe30
10-03-2012, 11:18 PM
Interesting build. Kudo's for tackling it yourself.

I must say that torque curve is interesting.

Thanks!

Yeah 15ftlbs lost... I messed with it street tuning the fuel and it seemed better. Ill know on the next dyno session.

Also i have been thinking of another plenum design.. One that is more common and a proven design. Something like this...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/4a4uhuma.jpg

BMe30
10-06-2012, 01:05 PM
So i did that dyno day today... So from that first dyno pull to todays i was messing around with some tunes and this is what i got with a failing fuel pump..

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/07/tepebyne.jpg

Ill go back once my new tre-340 fuel pump goes in

Bullet Ride
10-06-2012, 05:40 PM
Flattest torque curve ever...

BMe30
10-06-2012, 06:28 PM
Flattest torque curve ever...

Bad? Good?

Bullet Ride
10-06-2012, 07:39 PM
It's a good thing, horsepower climbs all the way up to the top too.
I wish you would have dynoed the stock set-up first though.

BMe30
10-06-2012, 07:53 PM
It's a good thing, horsepower climbs all the way up to the top too.
I wish you would have dynoed the stock set-up first though.

Yeah i wish i did too...

I started to read up on flat tq curve... Looks like thats what pple shoot for... Also read that having a flat tq curve like that means im really close to MBT. Been reading up on more tuning tips around the tq curve vs hp curve vs afr.

Going to try again after pump is installed... And maybe a new fuel filter as well

BMe30
10-09-2012, 05:54 PM
So the other day i was thinking about why the icv didnt work the last time i hooked it up... Then i realized that was was suposed to loosen the idle screw to close the butterflies more so the icv would let the air bypass... Duuuuh...

Today after work i picked up more hoses, clamps, and 90* elbows... Hooked it all together again.. Closed the butterflies.

Purrs like a kitten at the right idle again :)

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/10/ru2abeje.jpg

mr ilia
10-13-2012, 01:19 AM
I will be honest, but the TQ curve on this graph does not make sense.
It is not possible to have to have the curve this flat with AFR all over the place. Looks like the scale on the graph is off. I see it is stretched some.

On n/a engine, afr should be around 12-13, and you're barely hitting 14. Try adding more fuel across the board, but less in the middle rpm band.

What is you injectors size?

So i did that dyno day today... So from that first dyno pull to todays i was messing around with some tunes and this is what i got with a failing fuel pump..

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/07/tepebyne.jpg

Ill go back once my new tre-340 fuel pump goes in

BMe30
10-13-2012, 06:43 AM
The chart shows a higher afr due to the fact that the dyno's afr wideband is connected to the exhaust venting system attached to my muffler that is obviously after my cat therefore showing a hight afr than what my aem afr wideband was showing me before cat.

As i stated earlier in the thread im using s52 21.5lbs/hr injectors

Also stated earlier that my fuel pump had failed on me a few days before that last dyno run and hasnt been holding the same fuel psi as before.. I had to make changes on tunerpro rt just to get 13~ afr on my wideband. Which is why i have on order a better fuel pump.

SamE30e
10-13-2012, 11:49 AM
So i did that dyno day today... So from that first dyno pull to todays i was messing around with some tunes and this is what i got with a failing fuel pump..

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/07/tepebyne.jpg

Ill go back once my new tre-340 fuel pump goes in


Holy lean, get a proper reading and tune that way. Considering a M42 has no way to detect knock I'd be very worried.

Your cylinder temps are probably insanely high, that's how I blew my M42.

BMe30
10-13-2012, 01:27 PM
As i said... The aem afr in my car was showing ~13:1 at wot.. The dyno afr will show lean bc of the cat.

mr ilia
10-15-2012, 03:04 PM
AFR @ 13 is fine for n/a, but that TQ curve does not look believable, it is too flat for n/a engine.

BMe30
10-15-2012, 03:16 PM
AFR @ 13 is fine for n/a, but that TQ curve does not look believable, it is too flat for n/a engine.


Well thats what it is... Sorry? :)

BMe30
11-16-2012, 12:56 PM
Holy lean, get a proper reading and tune that way. Considering a M42 has no way to detect knock I'd be very worried.

Your cylinder temps are probably insanely high, that's how I blew my M42.

What afr were you running when you blew it?
I've always heard that the m42 stock ran a little lean..
Im curious to know what the factory afr @ wot are vs a chipped m42 afr @ wot
I know there is timing to factor in but knowing the limits of those afr's may also determine the combustion efficiency that the motor can run leaner than most without damage. According to some engine builders ive been talking to...

blueboi69
11-25-2012, 05:58 AM
Just keep in mind this graph:

http://www.mi-systems.fr/pictures/graph_afr_%20gb.jpg

BMe30
11-25-2012, 01:23 PM
Thanks

blueboi69
03-09-2013, 03:52 AM
Hi!

Do you have some improvement? I'm curious about your project!

BMe30
03-09-2013, 06:50 AM
Funny you posted that. Just last night i finally installed my TRE fuel pump. Remember the fuel issues i was having after 5500rpm.. Well now its the complete opposite!

I was able to tune to maintain 14.7 afr at idle

Tuned low load fuel map to 14.7 afr

High load fuel map is around 12-13afr

WOT fuel map it seems that no matter how low i set the values im running 10afr

Bullet Ride
03-09-2013, 09:27 AM
Shoot for low 13 AFRs at WOT.

What kind of values are in the WOT table? I'm just wondering if it works on it's own, or over top of the base fuel map.
Are there custom xdf files out there for your DME that use a single map and eliminate the WOT map?

BMe30
03-09-2013, 10:54 AM
Shoot for low 13 AFRs at WOT.

What kind of values are in the WOT table? I'm just wondering if it works on it's own, or over top of the base fuel map.
Are there custom xdf files out there for your DME that use a single map and eliminate the WOT map?

As far as i know there is no table out there that will replace the low, high, and WOT table

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/09/5y5ane9a.jpg

Pay no attention to the same values across the rev range.. I was trying to see when it would lean out.. I know you know.. Its for those who might not know lol

Here is the xdf table list i have been tuning from

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/09/a4ujuze8.jpg


Here is another xdf i found on the tunerpro forum for the m42. I havent tried it yet nor have i excluded the tables that dont work for my ecu. Thats why there are repeated tables.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/09/rysyzanu.jpg

Im reall interested to see if these tables work with this new xdf.. Mainly the afr table

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/09/ytu5ehe9.jpg

It was suggested i try my stock injectors. Ill try that first.

Bullet Ride
03-09-2013, 03:28 PM
As far as i know there is no table out there that will replace the low, high, and WOT table

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/09/5y5ane9a.jpg


What are the units on your x-axis? AFM door position?

BMe30
03-09-2013, 03:36 PM
Wot map? Or high load map?

I believe its throttle position

Bullet Ride
03-09-2013, 06:59 PM
Wot map? Or high load map?

I believe its throttle position


Oh, does your car have a variable TPS stock?

BMe30
03-09-2013, 07:07 PM
Oh, does your car have a variable TPS stock?

Stock its a fixed tps. The ecu was self learning for position.

On my itbs its variable.. And i noticed that if the idle voltage was too high i would be in the low load map instead of the idle map.

If the voltage was too low then i wouldnt get into the WOT map.

Bullet Ride
03-09-2013, 07:57 PM
Cool, I didn't know you could adapt a variable TPS when you're piggybacking the stock DME. I guess my question is now that if your table axis is RPM vs TPS angle (a.k.a. Alpha-N) then what is the DME doing with the input from the AFM flap? Is it just ignoring it? Because in theory you should be able to run the car without the AFM if you were to install an IAT sensor in your plenum somewhere.

BMe30
03-09-2013, 11:37 PM
If i recall correctly the flap and throttle position work together.

Well i got my stock injectors in... Got her started and sure enough my afr sensor is messing up showing really lean with no numbers registering. Its been like this for 2 weeks. Every now and then it works.

Hopefully it will work tomorrow morning to do a little tuning.

BMe30
03-10-2013, 11:36 AM
This morning i loaded up the stock bin file with tunerpro. Started the car and the idle was great. Drove to the gas station. Not bad.

One problem... My afr sensor was not reading at all. It would work at times at idle but then show full lean.

So a few things on to do list...
Get new afr sensor
Replace fuel filter
Street tune for fuel
Redesign intake plenum

Bullet Ride
03-10-2013, 12:59 PM
If i recall correctly the flap and throttle position work together.

With a fixed TPS normally the DME would be looking at the input from the AFM flap in order to determine where you are on the x-axis of your fuel map and it will only be using the input from the TPS to determine when to switch to the idle or WOT maps. So if your DME is now using the TPS signal to determine where you are on the x-axis of the fuel map then the signal from the AFM flap is doing what?

BMe30
03-10-2013, 03:13 PM
The afm tells the dme the air volume that passes through the flap throughout the flap opening. Also determines fuel to match.

Earlier with my spare afm i tried advancing the sweeper from the gate to trick the dme in thinking the flap was open more than what it was to add more fuel. That was with the stock dme

Just like the m20. Now here is the part that i dont understand. Miller designed a maf conversion for the m20 but had difficulty with one for the m42 and scraped the project.
A guy in cali is currently trying to tackle the issue for the m42 maf conversion.

I could try one day to get an iat sensor. Figure out the iat wires from the afm and splice it in. Disconnect the afm and see what happens with the fuel.

blueboi69
03-11-2013, 07:41 AM
The afm tells the dme the air volume that passes through the flap throughout the flap opening. Also determines fuel to match.

Earlier with my spare afm i tried advancing the sweeper from the gate to trick the dme in thinking the flap was open more than what it was to add more fuel. That was with the stock dme

Just like the m20. Now here is the part that i dont understand. Miller designed a maf conversion for the m20 but had difficulty with one for the m42 and scraped the project.
A guy in cali is currently trying to tackle the issue for the m42 maf conversion.

I could try one day to get an iat sensor. Figure out the iat wires from the afm and splice it in. Disconnect the afm and see what happens with the fuel.


Hi!

Sounds good! I was thinking the same, to try it with an IAT sensor only. Please share your experience about it, it would be very very useful for me!
Thanks!

blueboi69
03-11-2013, 08:36 AM
With a fixed TPS normally the DME would be looking at the input from the AFM flap in order to determine where you are on the x-axis of your fuel map and it will only be using the input from the TPS to determine when to switch to the idle or WOT maps. So if your DME is now using the TPS signal to determine where you are on the x-axis of the fuel map then the signal from the AFM flap is doing what?



It would be nice to test it, moving the TPS when it is not on the throttle valve or to move the AFM flap without moving the throttle valve.
I'm also very curious about this. It would be very very nice, to build an M42 running alpha-N :)

BMe30
03-11-2013, 01:39 PM
Here is the link to the thread if the guy who is working on the maf conversion for the m42. Its an interesting techie read... http://m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=14832.msg118173#msg118173

Bullet Ride
03-11-2013, 02:32 PM
Oh, does your car have a variable TPS stock?

Stock its a fixed tps. The ecu was self learning for position.

On my itbs its variable.. And i noticed that if the idle voltage was too high i would be in the low load map instead of the idle map.

If the voltage was too low then i wouldnt get into the WOT map.

Cool, I didn't know you could adapt a variable TPS when you're piggybacking the stock DME. I guess my question is now that if your table axis is RPM vs TPS angle (a.k.a. Alpha-N) then what is the DME doing with the input from the AFM flap? Is it just ignoring it? Because in theory you should be able to run the car without the AFM if you were to install an IAT sensor in your plenum somewhere.

With a fixed TPS normally the DME would be looking at the input from the AFM flap in order to determine where you are on the x-axis of your fuel map and it will only be using the input from the TPS to determine when to switch to the idle or WOT maps. So if your DME is now using the TPS signal to determine where you are on the x-axis of the fuel map then the signal from the AFM flap is doing what?

This whole conversation can be more or less ignored lol, when I read "Stock its a fixed tps...On my itbs its variable." I mistook that to mean that the stock TPS is like the E30 TPS, a switch, not a sensor. However I looked up the p/n from the M42 TPS on RealOEM and it's the variable TPS. Shit makes more sense now lol

blueboi69
03-12-2013, 01:55 PM
Here is the link to the thread if the guy who is working on the maf conversion for the m42. Its an interesting techie read... http://m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=14832.msg118173#msg118173



It sounds interesting, but I don't know how it could be done. There isn't anything specific.

Have you tired to run without the AFM and only with IAT sensor?

BMe30
03-12-2013, 03:35 PM
Im going to try after i install the new sensor and retune the car for fuel.

May be a while before i cross that bridge though. I have a feeling that it won't work but i just thought of something that just might work. Its a little far fetched but never know till you try.

Ill explain later.

blueboi69
03-12-2013, 03:43 PM
Im going to try after i install the new sensor and retune the car for fuel.

May be a while before i cross that bridge though. I have a feeling that it won't work but i just thought of something that just might work. Its a little far fetched but never know till you try.

Ill explain later.



I tried a few months ago to run the engine without the AFM, just using the TPS. Actually when I installed the ITBs and opened them simultaneously the stock TB with the TPS ( using both hands, one opens the stock TB which is not installed, the other hand opening the installed ITBs) and the enginge could run. I would say that it was a very nice running, but I used the stock chip and ecu, so nothing tuned.
Just I didn't have the ostrich then, so I was just making an experiment.
I think it could run... try it! I will try it again after a month or so when I have time for that.

BMe30
03-12-2013, 05:47 PM
i installed the new wideband sensor. took it for a boot and to my suprise the "stock" bin file was showing 12s afr at wot. i copied some of the timing maps from my previous tunes. i need to smooth out some of the low and high load maps.

all in all it looked like all i needed was a new fuel pump. TRE 240 same as the walbro 255L/hr pump.

just a quick thanks to Rocco from RMP for suggesting to put the stock injectors in to solve the high fuel issue.

blueboi69
03-14-2013, 12:46 PM
Hi!
Did you really need to mess with the timing?

BMe30
03-14-2013, 01:22 PM
Hi!
Did you really need to mess with the timing?

Yup! Night and day difference!

Dont forget that the one of the things that performance chip give you is advanced timing. But with that you must run higher octane fuel. I use 91octane

blueboi69
03-14-2013, 01:25 PM
Yup! Night and day difference!

Dont forget that the one of the things that performance chip give you is advanced timing. But with that you must run higher octane fuel. I use 91octane



:)

Here in EU the lowest octane is 95. We have 98, or ethanol with 105.

Bullet Ride
03-14-2013, 02:05 PM
:)

Here in EU the lowest octane is 95. We have 98, or ethanol with 105.

The EU uses a different octane rating method called RON, North America uses AKI. Your 95 octane is equivalent to our 91 octane, our 94 is equivalent to your 98 and so on.

blueboi69
03-14-2013, 02:07 PM
The EU uses a different octane rating method called RON, North America uses AKI. Your 95 octane is equivalent to our 91 octane, our 94 is equivalent to your 98 and so on.


Hmmmm I didn't know that!

BMe30
03-14-2013, 02:36 PM
Also i wouldnt advance too much over stock unless you are dyno tuning to be sure that you are making power per increase.

blueboi69
03-14-2013, 02:41 PM
Also i wouldnt advance too much over stock unless you are dyno tuning to be sure that you are making power per increase.

That's why I don't want to increase it. I don't have an external knock sensor.

BMe30
03-14-2013, 02:52 PM
Ill post my tables later of what im running now. Its a pretty good start until i fine tune on the dyno. You can always tweek from my maps for fuel.

Bullet Ride
03-14-2013, 02:57 PM
Yeah, chances are you're going to pass MBT long before you start to knock from too much spark advance.

BMe30
03-24-2013, 11:37 AM
So friday night and saturday morning i started working on another plenum design. Since i dont have a smaller k&n filter and dont want to buy another one i was a little limited to the design i really wanted. This new design will not rub on my brake booster and ill have access to my brake fluid. This design has rounded corners to help for flow.

Some insulation. I used this stuff before for pattern making and lofted surfaces for some industrial design projects.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/24/azu6yqur.jpg

I reused the wooden pattern for the itb side

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/24/duvemeba.jpg

Touch n go test fitting... Used spray adhesive to keep it toghether

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/24/urasahaj.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/24/3aparu6a.jpg

Some sanding...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/24/pu4ebaqu.jpg

And the comparison...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/24/nuvyzaja.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/24/nemyjube.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/03/24/etu9u8u7.jpg

When i start the fg work im also going to make shorter trumpets with a better lip inside the plenum. I may start the fg next weekend.

blueboi69
03-25-2013, 12:16 PM
Woow it looks nice!
Have you tried something with removing the AFM?

BMe30
03-25-2013, 12:41 PM
Woow it looks nice!
Have you tried something with removing the AFM?

No.. But i dont think im going to try. If it was that simple it would have been done already. But then again.. If i get bored one day i might screw around with the idea

blueboi69
03-25-2013, 05:42 PM
Maybe you are right :)
I'm waiting for the weather to warm up. Fiberglass can't harden in about 0-5degrees Celsius.
My last shape was like this:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Xb0khEvlEXg/UNMstnVh9-I/AAAAAAAAF6g/paaoQ1yRy1Q/s640/2012-12-20%252013.42.03.jpg

and

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-DnpWjqaWJRk/UNNhqylWInI/AAAAAAAAF68/2-LGyYCz38Y/s512/2012-12-20%252013.42.14.jpg

BMe30
03-25-2013, 06:22 PM
Thats a good start.

Have you researched plenum design? Look into the trumpet design for inside the plenum

blueboi69
04-01-2013, 05:37 AM
Thats a good start.

Have you researched plenum design? Look into the trumpet design for inside the plenum

A haven't done any research just watched a few projects. Bigger shape won't have enough place as I use the lower half of the stock intake manifold.

BMe30
05-26-2013, 01:34 PM
So i pretty much designed a 3rd plenum..

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/27/6esytyme.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/27/aqa9epuh.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/27/u9a4ujag.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/27/ahebate6.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/05/27/my9u5uvu.jpg

This design is much better. Not only that i can now access my brake fluid but i noticed a better pull and a deeper engine noise.

Thats it for now. Just waiting for some dyno time to fine tune it.

mr ilia
05-26-2013, 07:02 PM
very good!

craz azn
05-26-2013, 10:12 PM
Newest plenum design looks great!

blueboi69
05-30-2013, 12:32 PM
Wow, thats great!
Does it have to be the same size in front of the itbs? I mean mine is like a triangle from a top view.

BMe30
05-30-2013, 12:53 PM
Wow, thats great!
Does it have to be the same size in front of the itbs? I mean mine is like a triangle from a top view.

For yours you should have the smaller end of the plenum 1/3 less from the end where the air is coming in from. There is an article i read out there about plenum design and flow.

Google image intake plenum and you'll see what im talking about. There are many with itbs as well. One thing is for sure you should have trumpets inside the plenum for better air flow.

blueboi69
05-31-2013, 08:39 AM
For yours you should have the smaller end of the plenum 1/3 less from the end where the air is coming in from. There is an article i read out there about plenum design and flow.

Google image intake plenum and you'll see what im talking about. There are many with itbs as well. One thing is for sure you should have trumpets inside the plenum for better air flow.


Hi!

Where is that article? Could you find it for me? I'm very interested in it!

BMe30
05-31-2013, 12:06 PM
http://horsepowercalculators.net/intake-manifold-design/intake-manifold-design

Thats pretty much it :)

blueboi69
05-31-2013, 12:10 PM
http://horsepowercalculators.net/intake-manifold-design/intake-manifold-design

Thats pretty much it :)

Cool, thanks! I'm going to read it. *th-up*